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Thread: What exactly is our problem?

  1. #1
    He's going for three... mikeyism's Avatar
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    Default What exactly is our problem?

    I spent some time going through the team stats trying to figure out where we've had problems this year.

    FG Pct 43.9% (26th in the league)
    Turnovers/game 15.5 (27th)
    Assists/game 19.5 (29th)
    Ast/Turnover Ratio 1.26 (28th)
    Steals 7.1 (Tied 19th)
    Opponent Turnovers 13.7 (Tied 19th)

    Offensively, the Pacers still average a decent 99.3 ppg (15th) but our playmaking has gotten more inefficient over the last 2 years. Some of this is the coaching change, some is due to DC struggling with the new offense. But what we didn't have this year is a 2nd playmaker on the roster. In 2009, we had TJ, Jack and Diener in the rotation and we finished 9th in the league in assists. In 2010 we had TJ and Earl and finished 15th. This year we have DC and AJ and we sit at 29th.

    Defensively, our pts allowed has improved from 103.8 to 100.8 since last year (from 23rd to 17th) but we are not good at pressuring the ball and forcing turnovers.

  2. #2
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Offense:

    Not nearly enough distribution of the ball.
    Not nearly enough consistency from our scorers.

    Defense:

    Not nearly enough personal accountability.
    Not enough individual talent (we have some, but not enough, and our best two defenders are both wings; our bigs needs to improve, and our point guards really need to improve).

  3. #3
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    The pacers are what they are a 35-39 win team. We don't have the players to be any better. Maybe in a couple of seasons if the younger players improve, we could be better, but right now we are what we are.

    So my point is there is no problem this is what this team is.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-28-2011 at 09:24 AM.

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    Call me Kauffie Kaufman's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The pacers are what they are a 35-39 win team. We don't have the players to be any better. Maybe in a couple of seasons if the younger players improve, we could be better, but right now we are what we are
    do you think the 1990 version of larry brown could squeeze more out of this current club? i think he could and would. the only question is with his hesitation to play young players i'm not sure how exactly this squad would look.
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

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    Member yoadknux's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    - I think we have a below average roster. Our SG and PF starters for example are probably not good enough to start for any playoff team this season. They may develop later but we're talking about this season.

    - Our #1 guy isn't good enough to carry the team on his own, and it's hard to say we have a true number 2 option on offense- sometimes its Hibbert, lately it has been Tyler, and rarely it's DC/Rush. Lack of consistent scoring options affects how our main guy plays, also makes us easier to stop. and that affects how well we shoot from the field.

    - Our starting point guard is a 2nd year player. his backups are another 2nd year player and a 1st year player. They haven't been clicking too well, especially lately.

    - We have no real leader, maybe chemistry problems between players, and coaching change which resulted in a first year head coach...

  7. #6
    He's going for three... mikeyism's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    INHO our backcourt situation is our open sore right now. Hopefully DC and George will show some progress in the offseason. It would also help to get a productive 3rd guard in the rotation, one that is a solid defender and playmaker, similar to Jack back in 2009. I'd be willing to deal the 2011 1st round pick to make that happen.

    BRush has no business being in the rotation. A role player that only shoots 3s might be ok if we already have 3 all-stars in the starting lineup (see: Spurs), but of course that isn't the case in Indy.

  8. #7
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Our problem is consistency. All of our "best" players are also our most inconsistent players on this team. People complain about Rush's inconsistency which is non-existence compared to the inconsistency we get from Granger, Hibbert, Collison, and Price. In fact Rush is one of the more consistent players on this team along side of Foster and McRoberts. Both Hansbrough and George could be considered inconsistent, but I don't think either of them are beyond expected inconsistencies of players with their experience.

    To a certain extent it should be expected for a team with the Pacers experience and talent to play down to the level of their opponents, but it goes beyond that. They go from competing and beating some of the best teams in the league, to being blown out by some of the worst. It isn't like they only did it against one team with a good match-up, or only did it once or twice, not they have competed with most of the best teams. Teams without any talent, like some people on here seem to think is the case with this team, do not do that. Teams without talent may get lucky once or twice, but will get blown out almost every time. This team seems to get blown out more by teams with less talent than teams with more talent.

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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    We just suck.

  10. #9
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    We just suck.
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    I really think it's a mental thing.

    There's a few games where the whole team is motivated and pumped up to work together and win and then the next game everyone just shuts down.

    We also can use some talent and leadership.

  13. #11

    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    I have been to several games this year and I can honestly say when this team decides to play they are much better than the record indicates. However, there has been far to many games (like the last two) where the Pacers simply did not show up. To play the Bulls and Heat like they did then get their doors blown off by the Queens and Pistons is unacceptable.

    In the games I have been too, I can honestly say that Tyler and Dante were the only players that brought it every night. I honestly believe they are the only two players on the roster that has any heart whatsoever. PG is a little young and inexperienced to make that judgment about. But I would trade anyone else on the roster for a decent player at their position.

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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    '12 PD Sunshiner awardee Kemo's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    i chalk it up to a handful of things to be honest..

    First off .. the main overlying factor .. is that this team is very YOUNG . and very ENEXPERIENCED ..

    Also , this particular season, is the 1st season in which we have pretty close to having our future main core of guys..

    That being said .... What I think it is , is that throughout this season, one or a few of the factors were usually always going on concurrently in turn affecting the play of the team...

    Factors include :

    young, enexperienced
    coaching change/system
    inconsistancy/slump
    leadership
    developing chemistry/chemistry problems/growing pains
    mental fatigue

    I could probably name more, but for the sake of keeping it short and getting to the point, I will stop there..

    Sometimes all these factors pile up at once on our guys, and we see games like the last 2 .. or the 6 loss streak we had where it seemed the wheels fell off ..

    Then, when we are winning , when everything starts clicking for us , we see how freaking scary-good this team COULD BE .. That is what is so damn frustrating..

    I am however kinda worried with Danny... it seems like he WANTS to be the leader of this team, and feels he is... but sometimes he don't .. but he also don't wan't anyone else to take over the leadership of this team neither...

    I kinda get the feeling that the chemistry issues we are seeing stems from this, and that we got too many wanting to be the "alpha dog" .. if that makes sense..


    Does anyone else see this too?


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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
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  17. #14
    Member jeffg-body's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Youth............... Boy it is great to be young when all things are clicking right you feel invencible and when things start to go wrong the wheels fly off quickly when it starts to hit the fan.

  18. #15
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    We started the season with a coach and system that should've been long gone and player roles re-evaluated during the past summer league and training camp. We allowed that same coach to clear his bench of potential qualified replacements thus making his firing harder and the followup interim regime very much a question mark.

    So that right there means this season is going to have some bumps in it because we've had players drilled in bad basketball for over 4 years and nobody with much experience to turn to for the interim HC role. Even if Vogel's personal preferences and resume' did include something besides Pitino and O'Brien it would be hard to undo all of the prior 3 plus years all of a sudden and at midseason.

    Then factor in some obvious chemistry issues that don't even quite make sense from the outside looking in. Why would Granger be down on the team? He could not have been an O'Brien fan and Vogel is certainly more of a player's coach than O'Brien... PLUS the team is in a position to make the playoffs... and lastly... the team in all likelihood will have a new coach next season and you'd think Granger would have some input in that process. So there are some things going on that defy even speculation right now.

    Something did seem to change around the time of the leaked trade that didn't happen... and the insertion of Lance into the regular rotation. But I'm not sure that is the complete answer or root of the problem at all.

    Maybe those things were seen as some writing on the wall for some players? Dunno...

    At least the front office can sort some of this out as well as see the young players playing consistent roles which should help with decisions moving forward.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    A happy Roy is a good Roy DaveP63's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    You have a young team that's been playing @ .500 ball.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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  21. #17
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaufman View Post
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    do you think the 1990 version of larry brown could squeeze more out of this current club? i think he could and would. the only question is with his hesitation to play young players i'm not sure how exactly this squad would look.

    Yeah, probably a few more games, but I still think similar issues would still be coming up especially offensively - coaching can only help the offense so much. Coaching has a greater impact on the defense, so great coaching would help the defense and that is where any improvement would be
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-28-2011 at 09:39 AM.

  22. #18
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    I believe we have talent that isn't fully realized. We don't have championship-level talent, but we have what I believe to be 4th-5th seed talent. We've had a coach who's screwed 'em up for a few years, and now a pretty good young coach who just needs a full off-season to install his system (it's really hard to install a new system 60% through a season on the fly with little practice time). Do I think the coach has a lot to do with it? You betcha. Who doesn't think Carlisle would whip these kids into shape?

    I think we should just get a playoff bid, go in with a "no one expects us to do anything" attitude, and just see what happens. Then this off-season, Vogel can get to work and put his stamp on this team, they can make some moves with the huge cap space, and next season see some results.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Member MTM's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    If cycles repeat themselves - this feels like the Detlef / Chuck Person / Reggie Miller version of the Pacers - when after years of terrible talent the team had a few guys who could scare opponents, but collectively there still wasn't enough to put up a lot of wins on a consistent basis. Like that team, what the GM has to do is pick which pieces to keep, which to move, and figure out how to mix talent plus chemistry correctly to get back to being a 50-win team on a regular basis. Sometimes a Sam Mitchell, Tank Thompson, Byron Scott, Haywood Workman bench is what a group of immature starters needs to keep the boat from sinking. I think a consistently good scoring 2-guard (whether it's PG or someone else) and a consistent bench rotation which includes some savvy vets might be what this team needs. The talented youth part of the roster is there. But the savvy vet part is not.

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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    The fact our current coach refuses to play the line-up of Born Ready, Tyler, & Mc Roberts. If the ship is sinking those are the three players I can depend on and it is about time for Larry Bird to tell Vogel that !!

  26. #21
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    We just suck.
    Yeah.. If only it was that simple.

    He have very inconsistent and not matured talent. Paul George, Roy Hibbert, and Tyler will all be very nice players some day, but they lack consistency and they are too young to be counted on at the moment. If they were on a good team they would take a back-up role and be groomed into the starting lineup in the future. Instead some of these guys are the best players on our team.

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Unfortunately, when the PGs aren't good, the whole team suffers. Like it or not, TJ Ford is a much better option (at least as your 2nd point guard) than what the Pacers have currently been getting off the bench. The Pacers only win when their guards are playing well and not turning the ball over.

    That's not just Point Guard related. The guard production overall is much worse than in years past.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  28. #23
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Bega View Post
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    The fact our current coach refuses to play the line-up of Born Ready, Tyler, & Mc Roberts. If the ship is sinking those are the three players I can depend on and it is about time for Larry Bird to tell Vogel that !!
    I can see Hansbrough and McBob, but Born Ready??? That's seriously the cause of our "problem"? lol... I don't know how you get dependability out of Born Ready, he's had some major weaknesses and lapses in his few minutes...
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  29. #24
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    We play up to competitions level way too often, inconsistent effort from game to game

  30. #25
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    Default Re: What exactly is our problem?

    The reason I play Born Ready is because this organization has to see what he is capable of. The sooner the better. I have not been happy with AJ and DC has played 6 good games in 2 months. If you aren't going to make the playoffs, at least know where the roster stands. There is no point in misdrafting the 9th pick and letting Mc Roberts walk away with the potential to be a top tier rotational player elsewhere.

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