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Thread: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

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    Default Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    I have personally reached the point with the Pacers that if it was left up to me I would break this team up. I am not saying start over but there would be some massive turnover if I could make it happen. Whether it is just a general lack of chemistry (the pieces do not fit together), selfishness (you hate to think that), or just an utter lack of good instincts on when to move or pass or shoot this team lacks it big time.

    Guys are not being passed to when open and when in good position and often it looks deliberate. Is it dissension or is it a lack of instinct? Along the same line often when a guy is open and gets the ball he gets it too late and not when or where he needed it. Why?

    Then it also looks to me like we have guys that feel like they are the "Big O" (for you old geezers like me) or for you younger guys Michael Jordan or Bird or for you toddlers Derrick Rose or Kobe. They are simply determined to win the game on their own (that is until they throw the ball away, get called for a driving foul, or throw up a brick) no matter who else is open where (they are not looking for anyone else).

    I am glad the season is nearly over. No one can successfully coach this bunch. We have pieces but they do not fit. Your comments are welcome.

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    Stay focused SMosley21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    I've pretty much reached my breaking point as well. I stated after the loss to Sacramento that if this teams ends up missing the playoffs again, that I will cancel my season tickets for next season. That isn't an idle threat either. If we don't make the playoffs, I will call my ticket rep and tell him to cancel my monthly payments and I'll just have to eat the $150 that I've paid for next season so far. I've gotten to the point that going to the games isn't even enjoyable any more because the team looks like they have no clue what they're doing half the time. It stopped being fun for me this season, and I can no longer justify spending a large chunk of my already meager income on the team without seeing better return on my investment.
    Grown Man Ball

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    It's a youth thing.
    Pacers,baby!

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    Call me Kauffie Kaufman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    chemistry-less team without a leader or heart.

    tincture of time cures things like this...
    that and a trade or two. we need to find our byron scott at some point in the next 2 years, if this indeed is the core.
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

  6. #5

    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    I think that there needs to be a complete coaching change. Vogel seems like a nice guy, let him get his head coaching job somewhere else. The teams needs a complete different voice and coaching staff. They need to get rid of teh O'brien remnants as that is associated with losing. They need to changed the entire culture.

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    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    All three of those things come into play with the starting group. They do not have good chemistry. Granger wants to be the primary scorer. Hansbrough wants to be the primary scorer. Hibbert wants to be the secondary scorer. Collison wants to be the secondary scorer. When you have four guys in the floor together who all want a bunch of shots and nobody who is concerned with getting their teammates looks, your chemistry isn't going to be good. And it clearly isn't with this group. There is little passing. There are zero screens set with the intention of getting a teammate a look. We've got four players who, for various reasons, have to get theirs.

    Selfishness plays a part in this. And Granger is is the main culprit of this. He has shown the ability to properly read the play and make the correct decision. He has not shown the desire. Hansbrough and Collison absolutely appear selfish. But I think with them it is severe lack of instincts. They are both extremely low basketball IQ players. They both seem to realize the only way they can positively impact a game is by personally putting the ball into the basket. So that is what they try to do. Even when the better decision would be something else. When their shots are falling it often helps us. When they are missing it kills us. Hibbert has proven ineffective as a fourth option. He has shown the ability to read the play and make the correct decision. However, when he only touches the ball every fifth trip he has mostly been looking for his own shot instead of the best basketball play. Is that selfishness? Maybe. I really don't know with him. George may as well not be on the floor offensively when the other four starters are out there.

    It isn't a matter of which one of chemistry issues, selfishness, or lack of instincts is the problem.

    The problem is that we have an abundance of all three.
    Last edited by BRushWithDeath; 03-27-2011 at 03:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Never reaching the Playoffs is the real culprit. It's amazing what reaching the playoffs and challenging their first round opponents can do for a young team's mentality. The Chicago Bulls and OKC Thunder would be a perfect example of this.

    Minus D. Jones (maybe S. Jones) and Granger's rookie year, no one knows what it's like to play in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Never reaching the Playoffs is the real culprit. It's amazing what reaching the playoffs and challenging their first round opponents can do for a young team's mentality. The Chicago Bulls and OKC Thunder would be a perfect example of this.

    Minus D. Jones (maybe S. Jones) and Granger's rookie year, no one knows what it's like to play in the playoffs.
    Chicago and OKC cant be compared to the Pacers. They have Drose and Durant&Westbrook. We dont have a star go to leader like they have. A guy who can take over the game whenever they want. We are a long ways a way from being OKC or CHI

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    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Chicago and OKC cant be compared to the Pacers. They have Drose and Durant&Westbrook. We dont have a star go to leader like they have. A guy who can take over the game whenever they want. We are a long ways a way from being OKC or CHI
    That's not true. Derrick Rose is good player, but can you honestly say that not taking the Boston Celtics to a game 7 didn't have an impact on his confidence this season? They didn't even make the playoffs during Rose's first seeason.

    Kevin Durant have TWO godawful losing seasons (20 wins and 23 wins) before they went to the playoffs, and put a scare in the LA Lakers last year.

    All I'm saying is...if the Pacers make the playoff, then it might be what Granger needs to push him over the edge to WANT to become a bonafide superstar. Granger has been part of losing basketball for the past 3 years, and just maybe to play some winning basketball to reach the playoffs could change how he carry this team next season. Or he could become another Tracy McGrady...great player who's always eliminated in the 1st round.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    That's not true. Derrick Rose is MVP PLAYER, but can you honestly say that not taking the Boston Celtics to a game 7 didn't have an impact on his confidence this season? They didn't even make the playoffs during Rose's first seeason.

    Kevin Durant have TWO godawful losing seasons (20 wins and 23 wins) before they went to the playoffs, and put a scare in the LA Lakers last year. HE didnt have the pieces and was still growing as a player westbrook coming along really helped.

    All I'm saying is...if the Pacers make the playoff, then it might be what Granger needs to push him over the edge to WANT to become a bonafide superstar. Granger has been part of losing basketball for the past 3 years, and just maybe to play some winning basketball to reach the playoffs could change how he carry this team next season. Or he could become another Tracy McGrady...great player who's always eliminated in the 1st round.
    Granger a chance to be a superstar quit kidding your self



    Drose has never lacked confidence he is a cocky player and thats a good thing
    Last edited by pacer4ever; 03-27-2011 at 07:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Granger a chance to be a superstar quit kidding your self



    Drose has never lacked confidence he is a cocky player and thats a good thing
    Was Reggie Miller an All-Star/Superstar before or after he went to the playoffs? Some players do become BETTER players once they had a taste of Playoff basketball.

    Was Derrick Rose an MVP Player the year they went to against Boston? Can the "Didn't have the pieces?" argument be applied to Granger too? Don't kid yourself that a Superstar is going to fall in our lap.
    Last edited by ksuttonjr76; 03-27-2011 at 08:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    None of the above.. The Pacers run an offense that isnt that hard to figure out and players cannot consistently get the ball in good spots.

    Tyler sometimes gets the ball with no time on the clock 20+ feet out.

    Hibbert gets the ball to late or to far out.

    Ect.

    Dont really think it has to do with chemistry or selfishness or anything else.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Talent?

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEM View Post
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    None of the above.. The Pacers run an offense that isnt that hard to figure out and players cannot consistently get the ball in good spots.

    Tyler sometimes gets the ball with no time on the clock 20+ feet out.

    Hibbert gets the ball to late or to far out.

    Ect.

    Dont really think it has to do with chemistry or selfishness or anything else.
    I agree with what you say but you do not give us the reason for the things you say. Why don't the players get the ball in good spots? Why does Tyler get the ball 20' from the basket with no time on the clock? Why does Hibbert get the ball too late or too far out? Those are the questions we are seeking answers to.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Lack of heart.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 03-27-2011 at 06:43 PM.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Lack of hearth.
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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerHound View Post
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    I agree with what you say but you do not give us the reason for the things you say. Why don't the players get the ball in good spots? Why does Tyler get the ball 20' from the basket with no time on the clock? Why does Hibbert get the ball too late or too far out? Those are the questions we are seeking answers to.
    Teams know what the Pacers want to do.. Its a screen and roll or a post up to Hibbert , Granger or Hansbrough. They dont really run anyone off of a off-ball screen unless its Granger coming out to take a 3 and there isnt anything elaborate to try and confuse a defense. Its just straight up.

    It ends up with a good bit of dribbling then a rushed / contested shot by someone far to often.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEM View Post
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    Teams know what the Pacers want to do.. Its a screen and roll or a post up to Hibbert , Granger or Hansbrough. They dont really run anyone off of a off-ball screen unless its Granger coming out to take a 3 and there isnt anything elaborate to try and confuse a defense. Its just straight up.

    It ends up with a good bit of dribbling then a rushed / contested shot by someone far to often.
    Based on what you have said here I would conclude then that you would think it is a coaching problem in that we are not running an offensive system or sets that we ought to be. Am I right in that? I am not getting on you just asking for your honest opinion.

    Personally, I do not want to believe it is selfishness. It may look that way and frankly does at times but I prefer to think it is just a lack of good instincts. However, there is little doubt that these guys do not and are not playing well together as a unit. Maybe we ought to go back to the original "goon squad" which was fairly consistent night in and night out. Even so I don't think they would be now. Sometimes you can't go back, there is no going back, and there was a reason the changes were made that were made.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    I'm holding out to see what (if) the Pacers do in the playoffs, especially Danny Granger. But unless I see something that changes my mind, I think we need to blow it up.

    I said earlier this team isn't good enough and doesn't have the chemistry as it is. Playoff runs can really change a young team, but if it doesn't change the Pacers, then the main things we need to do this offseason are get a veteran coach and trade Granger for anything we can get for him. We also need to get rid of either Price or Collison, and keep the other as a back. Either through the draft or as part of the Granger trade the Pacers need an unselfish passing point guard that is a good 4" taller than what we have now.

    I'd like to resign McRoberts if his contract is cheap as I see him continuing to improve under a new coach. Between him and Hans we would be alright at PF. Hibbert at center, George at either SF or SG, depending on what we get with the Granger trade, and a new PG and SF.

    There's something wrong with the team, and fairly or unfairly, Granger seems to be at the center of it. It appears his effort and demeanor are becoming detrimental to the teams overall style of play an moral. To be fair, it could be other problems and they are effecting Granger, but there's no excuse for his lack of effort during games for a playoff spot. Unless we make the playoffs and it rejuvinates this team, then blow it all up, cause we aren't going anywhere as is.
    Danger Zone

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?
    Yes, among other things...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    As said above, just a combination of all those things.

    And I agree, it's time for a major overhaul.
    Stop quoting people I have on ignore!

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    outside of trading granger +/- another piece, i don't know that an "overhaul" is necessary. I think I'd like to see what a good coaching staff could do with this group. I think we need a good coaching staff.
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

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  30. #23

    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    i don't think pacers need a major overhaul. they need a couple of better players, bigs imo, but not a team rebuild. they are solid at the wings, ok at the point, roy and tyler belong in the big rotation somewhere. they need a couple of good guys. either a nene type and somebody else or a starting PF and a starting/backup center. pacers have lots of youth that deserves to play out their rookie contracts to see if they can play or not.

    all the young players, most of them will get better over the summer.

  31. #24
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    It's a point guard problem.

    I think Lance is a solution, but this team put up a temper tantrum in the attempt to honestly solve the point guard dilemma this season. Therefore, we will have mediocre offense until next year (if we're lucky).
    .

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Chemistry, Selfishness, or Lack of Instincts?

    A lot of our problems go away if we find a PG who loves to and actually can distribute the ball and delegate touches among his scoring options.

    As I've said, I'm fine with a scoring 1 in theory, but this is a circumstance, as Brush pointed out, where that cannot work. If those other guys are your starters, and in general I believe they should be, you must pair them with a point guard who is out there to get them good looks and to spread the offense around.

    Then there's the defensive issues....

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