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Thread: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

  1. #26

    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by daschysta View Post
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    JO was a self appointed leader as well and was even called a leader by reggie. Many fans would disagree however.
    It doesn't matter what fans think its what his teammates think and his coach. The guy is a leader in my book and people who scout also mention that quality when describing him.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by daschysta View Post
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    Meh.

    I don't buy that he's much of an upgrade of Darren now, and I believe Darren will be a far better player than him next year.

    You have to realize that his stats in new york were quite possibly massively inflated by D'Antoni's breakneck system and having amare stoudamire to pass to.

    Even in New York he shot a miserable 42 percent and is shooting even worse since getting to denver while averaging only 10 ppg.

    This can't be blamed on lawson either, Raymond is still getting 32 or so minutes per game.

    He also played almost 40 minutes per game in new york. Inflate Darren's numbers to those minutes and they are pretty similar, with Raymond getting slightly more assists in a far more friendly system for point guards, and Darren shooting and scoring better and being much more efficient despite being significantly younger.

    New york was an aberration in raymond feltons career, other than there he's been incredibly inefficient scoring the ball, slightly above average passing the ball and pretty average on defense.

    I wouldn't mind getting him as a backup, but i'm fairly confident that Darren will be the better player going forward.

    I'm not against an upgrade, but this is very lateralish, and an older player to boot.


    Sorry, I disagree about it being a lateral move. Felton plays better "D" than Collison and that alone makes it NOT a lateral move! Yes, he's older than Collison, but he has playoff experience that Collison doesn't have. That's another valid reason bringing in Felton isn't a lateral move. With Denver being in the playoffs this will be his 2nd year in a row being in the playoffs. With different teams made up of different types of players and systems. That's even more experience that bodes well for bringing in Felton.

    Felton can be the PG for the next couple of years while Collison is brought along in developing his game. Nothing chisled in stone says Collison has to be the starting PG nor the absolute PG of the future for the Pacers. You upgrade when you have the opportunity not when between a rock and a hard place and have no other option.

    I posted in another thread earlier today that the Pacers numerous options on how to get Felton, and all start with this years #15 pick. This pick and being able to absorb Felton's contract with them not having to take a contract back is a good place to start. The trade can be expanded with the Pacers sending a youngster like Stephenson and/or Price plus Lorbek/Stanko.

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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Felton would be an enormous upgrade. Enormous.

  5. #29

    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    Can we just acquire Shaun Livingston instead?

    I'm laughing b/c last year right b4 the last game of the season I started a thread about Shaun. The last game of the season was against the Wiz who Shaun was playing for. The comments he's injury prone, he can't play anymore were comments stated. News flash to those making those comments, Livingston hasn't missed a game this year do to injury, and he's been a credible b/u PG for the Bobcats this year.

  6. #30
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I think Felton is an upgrade.. But isn't "Enormous" stretching it? I mean Felton is very much a systems guy just like Darren Collison is. This is evidenced by the fact that since Felton has been in Denver, in 32 MPG, he has averaged 10.8 on 42% shooting and 6.8 assists.

    Felton is better than Collison but I think that you are underrating Collison.. I know you don't like him but he's not a bad player at all.

  7. #31

    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    I think Felton is an upgrade.. But isn't "Enormous" stretching it? I mean Felton is very much a systems guy just like Darren Collison is. This is evidenced by the fact that since Felton has been in Denver, in 32 MPG, he has averaged 10.8 on 42% shooting and 6.8 assists.

    Felton is better than Collison but I think that you are underrating Collison.. I know you don't like him but he's not a bad player at all.
    You don't think thats because he is learning a new system from a different coach?

  8. #32

    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Felton is being massively overrated because of his time in NY. I mean he was an average starter at best before he got put in the D'Antoni stat inflation system.

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  10. #33
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    The pining for Raymond Felton is a textbook example of "the grass is always greener on the other side." He had a nice run under Mike D'Antoni, but asides from that he's been incredibly mediocre throughout his career. If we want a long-term point guard upgrade, we need look elsewhere, because he's not it.

  11. #34
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    You don't think thats because he is learning a new system from a different coach?
    Okay then if you want to use that excuse let's look at every year of his career before he got to New York, especially in the slow-paced offense under Brown.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...feltora01.html

  12. #35

    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    Okay then if you want to use that excuse let's look at every year of his career before he got to New York, especially in the slow-paced offense under Brown.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...feltora01.html
    I already looked this up before and I still came to the conclusion that I think he would be an upgrade over Collsion. His leadership and defense is what sells me that he is better than Collsion. As long as the price is reasonable than I think having both would be a valuable asset to the team.

    Edit: Sort of like have a vet starting sg to teach PG.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 03-28-2011 at 09:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    I think Felton is an upgrade.. But isn't "Enormous" stretching it? I mean Felton is very much a systems guy just like Darren Collison is. This is evidenced by the fact that since Felton has been in Denver, in 32 MPG, he has averaged 10.8 on 42% shooting and 6.8 assists.

    Felton is better than Collison but I think that you are underrating Collison.. I know you don't like him but he's not a bad player at all.
    I don't care what he does offensively, the fact that he can at least pretend to play defense makes him a huge upgrade.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Is funny to me that nobody have even talk about how good Felton is in the pick and roll, he could make Tyler, Josh and even Danny better, the guy is as good as anybody at doing this, there is a reason why Amare was in the MVP talks before the Melo trade and his numbers were huge in big part because of Felton.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 03-25-2011 at 03:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I already looked this up before and I still came the conclusion that I think he would be an upgrade over Collsion. His leadership and defense is what sells me that he is better than Collsion. As long as the price is reasonable than I think having both would be a valuable asset to the team.

    Edit: Sort of like have a vet starting sg to teach PG.
    I agree with you.. I think Felton is better than Collison. But it's not a huge upgrade. Both of them together would be nice, I agree.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Speaking of leadership this is what Felton would bring to the table as well.

    Quoting him,
    Now Defense is another story

    Felton is clearly the better defender
    Sittin on top of the world!

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    You don't think thats because he is learning a new system from a different coach?
    It's actually pretty much par for what he's done throughout his career. If my ****ty math skills are on the mark for once, coming into this season he averaged 13.3 points on 41% shooting and 6.5 assists in 35 minutes.

  18. #41
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I don't think Felton is an upgrade to Collison.

  19. #42

    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Now Defense is another story

    Felton is clearly the better defender
    felton has always had good intangibles and good defense, but everything i read about him says he can't shoot a lick. i confess to not seeing him play enough in person to say one way or the other. but if he can't shoot, then he's just another guy at the point.

  20. #43
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Felton is the type of PG any team would love to have.

    He passes the ball around and knows how to find guys and he also plays good defense.

  21. #44

    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't think Felton is an upgrade to Collison.
    certainly not enough of an upgrade to use $6M in cap space and a player and a pick to get. felton is just another PG. different skill set, but still just another guy. pacers need to look farther up the PG list towards the top guys instead of shuffling deck chairs.

  22. #45
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Is funny to me that nobody have even talk about how good Felton is in the pick and roll, he could make Tyler, Josh and even Danny better, the guy is as good as anybody at doing this, there is a reason why Amare was in the MVP talks before the Melo trade and his numbers were huge in big part because of Felton.
    Collison runs the pick and roll just as well as felton does. As a rookie he averaged over 9 assists per game as a starter on a depleted team running almost exlusively the pick and roll with David West.

    Don't confuse our team lacking other players than collison who are good at the pick and roll as collison being anything less than really good at it.

    In fact New York fans actually were very dissapointed in his pick and roll ability from what I can gather from the real gm knicks board. His gaudy assists numbers are mostly a product of the ridiculous pace, propensity of his teammates to chuck 3's after a pass, and thirdly the pick and roll.

    You remember chris duhon averaged over 7 assists per game in that system...

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    I don't care what he does offensively, the fact that he can at least pretend to play defense makes him a huge upgrade.
    He's maybe slightly above average defensively, and doesn't do anything else particularly well. Yeah, huge upgrade worth spending 6 or 7 million of our capspace on.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    In a second I would do that deal but lets be real. Denver would want more. I give up Rush plus a pick.
    They are getting more. They save about $6m+ dollars the next two years.

  25. #48
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    If there's a lockout, and it takes full season, Felton wouldn't even play a game for us. So, what's the point to lose a draft pick and risk losing it for nothing?
    We can just sign him next summer if we really want him.
    Last edited by ballism; 03-25-2011 at 06:03 PM.

  26. #49
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Lets break it down.

    Offense: Collison
    Defense: Felton
    Leadership: Felton
    Pick/Roll: Tie
    Playmaking instincts: Felton
    Contract: Collison

    How much can Collison improve? This is an important question. I think ultimately they are both average to slightly above average starting PGs at best. However, if you value leadership and intangibles in your point guard than Felton fits the bill. Can Collison develop these qualities? I don't know.

    Collison's defense bothers me the most, I don't really think it will improve much. However, he is a very good offensive point guard. I also think he can get better at running an offense and improve his PG play if he gets time to develop better chemistry with his teammates and finally get to settle on a coach and system.

    I think I'm leaning toward sticking with Collison now, although I see a real clear value of getting a veteran backup with better defense and intangibles to help counteract Collison's weaknesses. Nothing at all against AJ Price, who I like, but getting a guy like Felton or Jarret Jack could have some real value even if we stick with Collison.
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  27. #50
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Lets break it down.

    Offense: Collison
    Defense: Felton
    Leadership: Felton
    Pick/Roll: Tie
    Playmaking instincts: Felton
    Contract: Collison

    How much can Collison improve? This is an important question. I think ultimately they are both average to slightly above average starting PGs at best. However, if you value leadership and intangibles in your point guard than Felton fits the bill. Can Collison develop these qualities? I don't know.

    Collison's defense bothers me the most, I don't really think it will improve much. However, he is a very good offensive point guard. I also think he can get better at running an offense and improve his PG play if he gets time to develop better chemistry with his teammates and finally get to settle on a coach and system.

    I think I'm leaning toward sticking with Collison now, although I see a real clear value of getting a veteran backup with better defense and intangibles to help counteract Collison's weaknesses. Nothing at all against AJ Price, who I like, but getting a guy like Felton or Jarret Jack could have some real value even if we stick with Collison.

    I see no reason to give up on Collison as long as his contract is favorable, unless you get a player who is a clear upgrade in every aspect to him--which is likely a top 5 point guard. Why shuffle the deck for someone who is a marginal upgrade in one category, yet a marginal downgrade in another? Would doing that gain the team any more wins over the course of the season? This assumes the intangible of team chemistry is unchanged or improved by acquiring said marginal talent upgrade.
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