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Thread: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

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    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I'm not at all trying to dump on Darren, In fact I think people have been unnecessarily harsh on him recently... However an upgrade is an upgrade. Raymond Felton has had an impressive season, hes a vet who has had great production this year and his contract is not outrageous.

    With Ty Lawson being the PG of the future in Denver, I have got to think Felton should be available for the right price this off season. What should/would he cost? We will have the advantage of being able to absorb his contract due to being under the cap.

    Felton is averaging 16 points and almost 9 assists a game for the year. The biggest reason I like the idea is that I think he would be a defensive upgrade over Collison, and that is a big deal. He is still a short PG but he has superior strength and seems to be mentally tough. Collison is young and seems prone to mental lapses, A steady vet presence at the PG position could do wonders for this team going forward.

    You can count me amongst people who believe that we have more need for upgrades to our back court than the PF position. I am ok with letting Paul George grow into the SG position for now, but I am interested in REALISTIC scenario's to upgrade the PG spot, which can have a dramatic effect on the team's success.
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I'd offer them AJ and a pick.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I will say that Felton's shooting percentages over his career have not been impressive, he is not the offensive talent that Darren is. His play making seems to be stronger (although he is no Steve Nash or anything), and he has an extra 40 pounds of muscle on Darren which implies a more capable defender.

    I'm basing most of this on stats and what not, has anyone watched Felton enough to analyze his game? I'm curious to know if he would be a true upgrade. I'm under the impression he has a good defensive reputation and that is the primary thing I'm looking at, I don't think Collison will ever be a good defender in the NBA.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 03-25-2011 at 12:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I'd offer Posey's expiring+1st round pick+ 2nd round pick

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I'd offer them AJ and a pick.
    In a second I would do that deal but lets be real. Denver would want more. I give up Rush plus a pick.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    In a second I would do that deal but lets be real. Denver would want more. I give up Rush plus a pick.
    They are getting more. They save about $6m+ dollars the next two years.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    If there's a lockout, and it takes full season, Felton wouldn't even play a game for us. So, what's the point to lose a draft pick and risk losing it for nothing?
    We can just sign him next summer if we really want him.
    Last edited by ballism; 03-25-2011 at 06:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Lets break it down.

    Offense: Collison
    Defense: Felton
    Leadership: Felton
    Pick/Roll: Tie
    Playmaking instincts: Felton
    Contract: Collison

    How much can Collison improve? This is an important question. I think ultimately they are both average to slightly above average starting PGs at best. However, if you value leadership and intangibles in your point guard than Felton fits the bill. Can Collison develop these qualities? I don't know.

    Collison's defense bothers me the most, I don't really think it will improve much. However, he is a very good offensive point guard. I also think he can get better at running an offense and improve his PG play if he gets time to develop better chemistry with his teammates and finally get to settle on a coach and system.

    I think I'm leaning toward sticking with Collison now, although I see a real clear value of getting a veteran backup with better defense and intangibles to help counteract Collison's weaknesses. Nothing at all against AJ Price, who I like, but getting a guy like Felton or Jarret Jack could have some real value even if we stick with Collison.
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Lets break it down.

    Offense: Collison
    Defense: Felton
    Leadership: Felton
    Pick/Roll: Tie
    Playmaking instincts: Felton
    Contract: Collison

    How much can Collison improve? This is an important question. I think ultimately they are both average to slightly above average starting PGs at best. However, if you value leadership and intangibles in your point guard than Felton fits the bill. Can Collison develop these qualities? I don't know.

    Collison's defense bothers me the most, I don't really think it will improve much. However, he is a very good offensive point guard. I also think he can get better at running an offense and improve his PG play if he gets time to develop better chemistry with his teammates and finally get to settle on a coach and system.

    I think I'm leaning toward sticking with Collison now, although I see a real clear value of getting a veteran backup with better defense and intangibles to help counteract Collison's weaknesses. Nothing at all against AJ Price, who I like, but getting a guy like Felton or Jarret Jack could have some real value even if we stick with Collison.

    I see no reason to give up on Collison as long as his contract is favorable, unless you get a player who is a clear upgrade in every aspect to him--which is likely a top 5 point guard. Why shuffle the deck for someone who is a marginal upgrade in one category, yet a marginal downgrade in another? Would doing that gain the team any more wins over the course of the season? This assumes the intangible of team chemistry is unchanged or improved by acquiring said marginal talent upgrade.
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Since being in Denver (away from D'Antonie and his epic PG offense) he's averaging 10.8 points and 6.8 assists.

    DC is a second year PG. If you can get him for Price and a first round pick, than sure..why not. But that means DC is going to take a backseat.

    Personally..I'd give both our PGs one more year. They don't improve..you look elsewhere. But right now..despite struggling..I've seen them both at their best and I think they are worth taking a long look at, and watching them grow together. They're both second year players, and they both haven't had the easiest start to their NBA careers.

    It's not like we need a vet PG either. The rest of our young core is so young that we aren't going deep in the playoffs anyway. (Unless we get more vets..which..then what was the point in finding a core?)

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Since being in Denver (away from D'Antonie and his epic PG offense) he's averaging 10.8 points and 6.8 assists.
    Minutes are a factor here, he is now splitting time with Lawson.
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Minutes are a factor here, he is now splitting time with Lawson.
    He's averaging a little over 32 minutes since going to Denver. That's typical starter minutes..and it's actually about what DC has been averaging.

    I'm just saying..watch it..because Raymond's stats went up during the early part of the season for the same reason that DC's did last season. The system. It's a lateral move..and DC is younger. If you can get Raymond cheap, like Hicks suggested (Price and a first - but I don't think that would work) it's not a bad idea, because it wouldn't hurt to have a vet with DC. But essentially, it is a lateral move.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    He's averaging a little over 32 minutes since going to Denver. That's typical starter minutes..and it's actually about what DC has been averaging.

    I'm just saying..watch it..because Raymond's stats went up during the early part of the season for the same reason that DC's did last season. The system. It's a lateral move..and DC is younger. If you can get Raymond cheap, like Hicks suggested (Price and a first - but I don't think that would work) it's not a bad idea, because it wouldn't hurt to have a vet with DC. But essentially, it is a lateral move.
    He plays at the 2 sometimes, reason why his minutes are high.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    He's averaging a little over 32 minutes since going to Denver. That's typical starter minutes..and it's actually about what DC has been averaging.

    I'm just saying..watch it..because Raymond's stats went up during the early part of the season for the same reason that DC's did last season. The system. It's a lateral move..and DC is younger. If you can get Raymond cheap, like Hicks suggested (Price and a first - but I don't think that would work) it's not a bad idea, because it wouldn't hurt to have a vet with DC. But essentially, it is a lateral move.
    i agree that it is a lateral move. slightly different skill sets, but both guys are average NBA PG's. pacers make a move for felton, and halfway thru the year, we will all be about felton not being able to make an open shot. think DJ or tinsley.

    as to his availability and price, he might be available for something like AJ and a pick. denver has a low cap number, but 3 or 4 guys they need to sign for next year. they might be willing to deal a guy making $7M for a pick just to save the cap space.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Meh.

    I don't buy that he's much of an upgrade of Darren now, and I believe Darren will be a far better player than him next year.

    You have to realize that his stats in new york were quite possibly massively inflated by D'Antoni's breakneck system and having amare stoudamire to pass to.

    Even in New York he shot a miserable 42 percent and is shooting even worse since getting to denver while averaging only 10 ppg.

    This can't be blamed on lawson either, Raymond is still getting 32 or so minutes per game.

    He also played almost 40 minutes per game in new york. Inflate Darren's numbers to those minutes and they are pretty similar, with Raymond getting slightly more assists in a far more friendly system for point guards, and Darren shooting and scoring better and being much more efficient despite being significantly younger.

    New york was an aberration in raymond feltons career, other than there he's been incredibly inefficient scoring the ball, slightly above average passing the ball and pretty average on defense.

    I wouldn't mind getting him as a backup, but i'm fairly confident that Darren will be the better player going forward.

    I'm not against an upgrade, but this is very lateralish, and an older player to boot.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by daschysta View Post
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    Meh.

    I don't buy that he's much of an upgrade of Darren now, and I believe Darren will be a far better player than him next year.

    You have to realize that his stats in new york were quite possibly massively inflated by D'Antoni's breakneck system and having amare stoudamire to pass to.

    Even in New York he shot a miserable 42 percent and is shooting even worse since getting to denver while averaging only 10 ppg.

    This can't be blamed on lawson either, Raymond is still getting 32 or so minutes per game.

    He also played almost 40 minutes per game in new york. Inflate Darren's numbers to those minutes and they are pretty similar, with Raymond getting slightly more assists in a far more friendly system for point guards, and Darren shooting and scoring better and being much more efficient despite being significantly younger.

    New york was an aberration in raymond feltons career, other than there he's been incredibly inefficient scoring the ball, slightly above average passing the ball and pretty average on defense.

    I wouldn't mind getting him as a backup, but i'm fairly confident that Darren will be the better player going forward.

    I'm not against an upgrade, but this is very lateralish, and an older player to boot.


    Sorry, I disagree about it being a lateral move. Felton plays better "D" than Collison and that alone makes it NOT a lateral move! Yes, he's older than Collison, but he has playoff experience that Collison doesn't have. That's another valid reason bringing in Felton isn't a lateral move. With Denver being in the playoffs this will be his 2nd year in a row being in the playoffs. With different teams made up of different types of players and systems. That's even more experience that bodes well for bringing in Felton.

    Felton can be the PG for the next couple of years while Collison is brought along in developing his game. Nothing chisled in stone says Collison has to be the starting PG nor the absolute PG of the future for the Pacers. You upgrade when you have the opportunity not when between a rock and a hard place and have no other option.

    I posted in another thread earlier today that the Pacers numerous options on how to get Felton, and all start with this years #15 pick. This pick and being able to absorb Felton's contract with them not having to take a contract back is a good place to start. The trade can be expanded with the Pacers sending a youngster like Stephenson and/or Price plus Lorbek/Stanko.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Felton would be an enormous upgrade. Enormous.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    The pining for Raymond Felton is a textbook example of "the grass is always greener on the other side." He had a nice run under Mike D'Antoni, but asides from that he's been incredibly mediocre throughout his career. If we want a long-term point guard upgrade, we need look elsewhere, because he's not it.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    He seems like a semi lateral move to me.

    Edit: I do like that he was coached by Larry Brown though.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I'd take Felton, you can never have too much talent.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I know some of you may laugh, but what is Jarret Jack's current contract like? If we could somehow nab him as our primary backup to Darren I would totally do it. His size and defense would help immensely in my mind.

    I personally think Darren has been doing pretty well since his obvious slump he went through. He will get better. He makes mistakes, but he also makes big time plays. If he isn't cutting it in a couple of years, maybe we look for a new starting point.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter1105 View Post
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    I know some of you may laugh, but what is Jarret Jack's current contract like? If we could somehow nab him as our primary backup to Darren I would totally do it. His size and defense would help immensely in my mind.
    One thing to keep in mind, it seems like when he was a Pacer people pointed out that he was actually a somewhat overrated defender. Is Jarret Jack truly a defensive upgrade?

    I do like Jarret Jack as a leader and a guy who is mentally tough. He will hit some big shots for you, although he is not naturally a great play maker either (just average). He reminds me of Derek Fisher in this way.
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    I'd like to see the Pacers draft a bigger point guard in the first round.
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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    One thing to keep in mind, it seems like when he was a Pacer people pointed out that he was actually a somewhat overrated defender. Is Jarret Jack truly a defensive upgrade?

    I do like Jarret Jack as a leader and a guy who is mentally tough. He will hit some big shots for you, although he is not naturally a great play maker either (just average). He reminds me of Derek Fisher in this way.
    Speaking of leadership this is what Felton would bring to the table as well.

    Quoting him,
    When you talk about my game, you might say Im fast off the dribble, I can get in the paint, I pass the ball, whatever. Tenacious defender,
    Felton said Tuesday. One thing people always say about me is Im a leader, and thats what Ive always been. So, I keep that role everywhere I go.

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    Default Re: Point Guard position? ---- Raymond Felton?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Speaking of leadership this is what Felton would bring to the table as well.

    Quoting him,
    JO was a self appointed leader as well and was even called a leader by reggie. Many fans would disagree however.

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