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Thread: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

  1. #201
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    No of course not, I have no real way of know that for sure, but I just illustrating a point that nagging injuries are wear and tear and most players by the age of 30 have a ton of nagging injuries. Alot of people are saying that shredding a ligament is a freak and injury and im just saying not always. Granger Fascia tear was just a nagging injury that the Pacers never allowed to heal, and he tore it doing the most mundane drive to the basket. So no real way of knowing if D West had such a nagging injury in this knee joint that already primed him for such a tear.
    1) What wear and tear issues were you aware of with David West prior to this ACL tear?

    2) How many NBA players are you aware of that tore their ACL due to previous wear and tear?

  2. #202
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Would it not be over use and over exertion?
    How would you know, in either case?

    If you are constantly running around and jumping with great height why wouldn't the ligaments get worn out?
    I don't know. Do you claim to know? For that matter, do you claim to know with specific regards to the ACL?

  3. #203
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I do not know Kaufie, but from my limited dealings with him if he is pretending to be a doctor then he has a lot of free time on his hand to research this stuff and make himself sound educated.
    I've heard that Kaufman really isn't a doctor but that he stays at Holiday Inn a lot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA46ImVjLI0
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-28-2011 at 05:23 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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  5. #204
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Would it not be over use and over exertion? If you are constantly running around and jumping with great height why wouldn't the ligaments get worn out? Why does somebody get tennis elbow? Kaufman says the bones and ligaments constantly remodel themselves, then why are people getting tennis elbow? Shouldn't they be adapting to the increased usage instead swelling up and tightening?
    Besides the fact that ligaments don't constantly remodel themselves, tennis elbow has nothing to do with either bones or ligaments. It's a tendon inserction pathology, due to inflammation micro-trauma related, which is a very different ethiology than the one related to ligament issues. Not really sure how that helps this argument.

    Same with Granger's injury, which happened on a previously inflammed tissue. That cannot relate to any ligament injury whatsoever.

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  7. #205
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    The true curse of being educated: lots of people are so sure their ignorance is every bit as good as your knowledge.

    I'm sorry Kaufman, just reading this exchange was painful for me. A similar situation in a thread discussing statistics killed a lot of my will to post here. There's no point in explaining something because they'll just say you don't know what you're talking about, and no amount of degrees or experience matters because THEY KNOW, and not only that, but they KNOW better than you...somehow...no one is really sure how that is, but somehow. In fact, he should just go open up a practice because this whole doctor thing is pretty simple anyway, right?
    As I recall, your own position in the stats thread was somewhat dubious.

    Even the putatively educated can be wrong.

    Edit - here is your clearly indisputable opinion from the stat thread:

    This is one of those really fun topics where people think their anecdotes about what they've seen are somehow proof over the hard statistical science of the matter.

    Science asked this question. Mathematicians and statistical wizards have sat down and run the numbers. They don't exist in the way people want to believe they do. As has been explained, sometimes you will make several in a row. Sometimes you will miss several in a row. That's 100% to be expected and been proven to not be of any anomalous significance.

    Hey, if you want to hold onto your belief and say NAYYY science can't answer this one! By all means, people do it all the time for tons of issues, but it doesn't make you right, it just makes you stubborn.

    If Reggie had gone 0-15 in a game, I'd still want him to shoot an open 3, because cold streaks don't exist either.
    "Science asked this question."
    Last edited by SoupIsGood; 03-28-2011 at 08:21 PM.
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  9. #206
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    How would you know, in either case?



    I don't know. Do you claim to know? For that matter, do you claim to know with specific regards to the ACL?
    Actually i don't claim to know, I just presume that would be the result. Its just my opinion derived from the logical progression of my thoughts. Guy is getting old by NBA standards, he has wear and tear on this legs from so many years in the NBA logging heavy minutes. There for I can logically presume that his injury may have been influenced by his age and deterioration. I'm not on the Hornets medical staff, so I don't have any inside knowledge. So I guess that's a technicality on me. BUT nobody on here has any proof that its just a freak injury and not due to his age as well. So there is postulating all the way around!

    But next time you make an argument I'll make sure to question your ability to know such things with 100% accuracy as well.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

  10. #207
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin View Post
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    Besides the fact that ligaments don't constantly remodel themselves, tennis elbow has nothing to do with either bones or ligaments. It's a tendon inserction pathology, due to inflammation micro-trauma related, which is a very different ethiology than the one related to ligament issues. Not really sure how that helps this argument.

    Same with Granger's injury, which happened on a previously inflammed tissue. That cannot relate to any ligament injury whatsoever.
    I Admit to getting it wrong when it comes to tendon and ligaments. My example of Granger was a nagging injury that came a full blown tear. But the same would apply to an MCL or ACL if a player had a mild strain of the ligament, it would make that ligament more prone to tear would it not?
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

  11. #208
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    I'm a published econometrician. I've instructed classes on the subject. What you don't seem to understand is that you don't have the knowledge to even begin to state that my position is dubious. This is very much a case of someone with the formal education, credentials, and experience knowing the correct way to assess something, and being questioned by people without these things. Then these same people, beyond just stating that you're wrong, with no basis beyond their gut instincts, directly insult you and pick at your credentials while providing none of their own.

    In my case I was insulted as someone who clearly had never played basketball before, called an elitist blankety-blank, and flatly told that I must simply not understand they very thing I've devoted my adult life to understanding, because my conclusions didn't match up with the conclusions people wanted to believe.

    In Kaufman's case Graphic-er has questioned his doctor status, suggested that he must only be familiar with youthful athletes, and demanded that Kaufman provide a thorough enough enough answer that it completely covers any angle his mind can think of.

    In a perfect world Kaufman (or I) would be able to take our many years of classes and experience and make a few short paragraphs that concisely prove and explain everything on the level that we understand it. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world, and so it's often easier to just accept that some people, experts in their fields, doctors, etc. are probably more correct than your gut instinct. They've(we've) spent our entire adult lives mastering said subjects, and learned that gut instincts don't actually take you very far when it really comes down to it. Things are just so much more complicated than the simplest answer people are drawn to.

    So yes, in no uncertain terms, hot and cold streaks don't exist, and probably not many other people here read the relevant literature on it, and if they did, they probably didn't read it from the position of someone with a deep and intimate understanding of the underlying frameworks, and no, I don't really have the time or desire to explain how I can be so certain of the underlying mathematics that provide this truth, just as Kaufman probably has very little desire in explaining everything he knows about how the human body works, and frankly, it's both insulting and tiresome that people expect experts and doctors to have to do that.

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  13. #209
    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    I know a little bit about statistics and probability, and Dece is completely right about this. Probability theory is one area where peoples' intuitive understandings are often mistaken. E.g. on hot streaks, we remember 8 pts in 8.9 or 25 in the fourth, but not the innumerable 5-12 nights Not to beat a dead horse too much, but the only way the idea of a "hot streak" is meaningful is if the fact that the previous shot went in makes the current shot more likely to go in. I can't see that (more importantly, there is no evidence for this).

    In fact, a misunderstanding about probabilities is probably adding to the confusion in this thread. Suppose that every time you jump up, you have a very small chance of landing so that you tear your ACL. Then, over the course of a career a player who plays 20 years is more likely to tear his ACL at some point, compared to someone who plays 5 years. But for "any given jump" they are equally likely to be injured. So this means, if you are a GM worried about ACL tears: don't be concerned with a players age, but the length of the contract.

  14. #210
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Actually i don't claim to know, I just presume that would be the result. Its just my opinion derived from the logical progression of my thoughts.
    All of this arguing over a ****ing presumption? Seriously? Really?

    BUT nobody on here has any proof that its just a freak injury and not due to his age as well. So there is postulating all the way around!
    Perhaps. Except for guys like Kaufman and Since86, anyway.

    But next time you make an argument I'll make sure to question your ability to know such things with 100% accuracy as well.
    Grow up.

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  16. #211
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    I haven't seen/remember the thread in question, but I'm sorry that you felt that way Dece...
    However, why would you post about stats on a casual sports forum and get "insulted" when people argue with you? That does sound rather unreasonable. Fans forum is a very different medium compared to science conference - no applause, far more diverse audience and noone knows when to shut up.

  17. #212
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
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    Not to beat a dead horse too much, but the only way the idea of a "hot streak" is meaningful is if the fact that the previous shot went in makes the current shot more likely to go in. I can't see that (more importantly, there is no evidence for this).
    I don't recall there ever being a final consensus around here on what defines a hot streak, and that includes whether or not it must mean that making one shot increases the probability of the next shot going in.

    With that said, if one were to go with such a definition, there is some reason to it in that an individual can get into what is sometimes called a 'zone' where a player's muscle memory and/or focus or concentration and/or confidence are in a highly ideal state, allowing them to continuously perform the correct motions to make a shot at an irregularly high level for a given amount of time. No proof there, but I'm just saying it's not like it's some kind of 'woo woo' claim of some kind of mystical phenomenon.

  18. #213
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    All of this arguing over a ****ing presumption? Seriously? Really?
    Well it could only be a presumption, on both sides of the argument. Some people presume that it was a freak injury, and I presume that is an indication of his age and the wear and tear on his body. Not totally provable for either stance.



    Perhaps. Except for guys like Kaufman and Since86, anyway.
    I'm sorry but Kaufman has offered a very limited medical assessment of the issue. Saying that the same amount of pressure would have the same results on any knee is just incredibly naive. It only works if the amount of pressure is overwhelming for any situation. ie- a shotgun wound? It does not consider the subject of the pressure ie - the players and their condition and the plethora of variables. ie -wear and tear and age/mileage. To say that those variables do not factor in the occurrence of a knee injury as a result of an awkward landing is just wrong. He is basically saying that a 30 year old knee with NBA level mileage is just as strong as a 20 year old knee that is just entering the league. Could the injury happen to both knees? Of course but that doesn't mean they are both equally susceptible to same amount of pressure by the fall. Like another poster said, guys in the NBA have the equivalent of 40 year old knees at the age of 30. Now that's just conjecture, but its pretty logical at its core. So if DWest's knees are the equivalent of a 40 year olds, then it makes pretty good sense that his knee would be more prone to injury.


    Grow up.
    Isn't that what you did to me there in the posts above, just asked how do you know this, how do you have this knowledge, how do you know that.....just trying to be clever because you know that I know there is no way I know such things unless I am DWest's doctor. Like I said it's all just presumption and conjecture, but so is everything else that anyone else has said.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

  19. #214
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Dear Graphic-er,

    Please throw in the white flag.

  20. #215

    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    You guys were all trolled.

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  22. #216
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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    In Kaufman's case Graphic-er has questioned his doctor status, suggested that he must only be familiar with youthful athletes, and demanded that Kaufman provide a thorough enough enough answer that it completely covers any angle his mind can think of.

    In a perfect world Kaufman (or I) would be able to take our many years of classes and experience and make a few short paragraphs that concisely prove and explain everything on the level that we understand it. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world, and so it's often easier to just accept that some people, experts in their fields, doctors, etc. are probably more correct than your gut instinct. They've(we've) spent our entire adult lives mastering said subjects, and learned that gut instincts don't actually take you very far when it really comes down to it. Things are just so much more complicated than the simplest answer people are drawn to.
    If a doctor only admitted to working with young athletes in college, why would I assume that he is equally knowledgeable about older athletes on the pro-level? Case in point, you don't see too many college players icing their knees every breather on the bench, compared to the NBA where most of them have ice packs on their knees and ankles after the check out of the game. You dont' see college players on the stationary bike ala Jeff Foster and Steve Nash.

    Now as far as your gut instinct theory there, that presumes that I know absolutely nothing about the human body and muscles and ligaments and that I am approaching the topic at hand with no more knowledge than the average person. Which I find pretty laughable. I have an extensive background in figure drawing, and in that field of study one learns how the the muscles and joints of the body connect and their range of motion, how weight affects balance, and you have to convey that visually. Hopefully in a way that is aesthetically pleasing and accurate. Does that make me an expert of anything? No, but I feel it gives me a pretty good base of knowledge of the human body in motion.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: David West suffers knee injury, taken off in wheelchair

    This thread jumped the shark pages ago & at this point is going nowhere but downhill.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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