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Thread: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Jrue Holiday in a Pacers uniform instead
    Maybe a month ago I'd be saying the same thing, but I'm pretty satisfied with what we got in 09.

    It was either a PG or PF.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yep. I think Tyler slams Jim more than the basketball.
    It actually cracks me up, because he's one of the last guys that I thought would say anything.

    Not because Jim wasn't terrible to him..but because Tyler just didn't talk before.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    Maybe a month ago I'd be saying the same thing, but I'm pretty satisfied with what we got in 09.

    It was either a PG or PF.
    Tyler is good but undersized PF's are easier to find than a big defensive pg as good as jrue.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    IF you didn't LOVE Duke so much then you would realize how good Tyler really is?!?!?!
    Exactly.


    What sucks is that if it weren't for all this bizarre overreaction we could have really sane, interesting discussions of his progression and how he might be well on his way to making my projection that he didn't have what it takes to make it look stupid.

    It doesn't have to be this crazy debate about how the most cheered player in Conseco is being "hated".


    Things I was wrong about initially - Tyler won't be able to draw fouls the same way. This went wrong for me right away, although at least I recognized that a major portion of his scoring was via FTAs (in college).

    That's it. What I was right about was that he was undersized, didn't have the power scoring game that Bird suggested and didn't have a quality set of go-to scoring moves, and all of this would keep his scoring/FG% down.

    That was happening. I said he would get stuffed a lot inside and he did. Not at the rim, below the rim. If he didn't draw fouls it would have been a disaster.


    AND THEN...

    Dude dialed in this jumper, Vogel started putting him in PnR to get him that shot and he partially reinvented himself as this dagger machine from 18 feet.

    It's not really what we were supposed to be drafting for at the time because we already had a PF that could shoot from the outside, and as nice as Tyler is shooting it's still not 40% from 3 for a full season or two.

    Tyler is what Troy was EXCEPT that he gives you defense and much higher value rebounds (ie, tough ones that you might not have gotten without Tyler).

    He's not the true power guy that Blair is or that the Pacers were in need of at the time, but what he has become does fit the team's need quite well at this point. His shooting opens up the lane for Collison and flat out puts points up at a HIGH PPS, higher than what his PPS was running up until the last month.


    I AM NOT COMPLAINING when it comes to Tyler's play. I'll eat the humble pie happily as he becomes something I never saw him becoming. I'm a Pacers fan after all.

    I am tired of people acting like people like me aren't saying what I just said. It's even worse when some of those people are just as happy to rip on Josh, Rush or George because they somehow view them as direct competition for Tyler's fanbase. It's not an either or situation.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    The majority of fans loved the Tyler pick since day 1.

    This is wrong, I can tell you by been one of the few guys in PD that wanted Tyler (me and Pwee), I argued with a lot of people for months about the pick and the majority of the people were either meh or gross out by the pick.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    It actually cracks me up, because he's one of the last guys that I thought would say anything.

    Not because Jim wasn't terrible to him..but because Tyler just didn't talk before.
    Completely agree.

    I thought for sure Roy and Josh would be the first two to go off, and maybe AJ. Roy has a little but not quite as directly.

    People forget that Tyler got TONS of minutes before the vertigo kicked in. He was being used like a normal rookie, regularly getting 15-20 minutes while Josh was getting DNP'd and Rush/Roy were getting all sorts of mixed signals and comments to the press.


    To me it makes Tyler's comments more legit because it's not just a "I wanted to play and he wouldn't put me in" anger. It's a lot more like "WTF was this dude doing". And his shooting is adding weight to his comments.

    This may be the biggest thing Tyler has done to make me a fan.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    This is wrong, I can tell you by been one of the few guys in PD that wanted Tyler (me and Pwee), I argued with a lot of people for months about the pick and the majority of the people were either meh or gross out by the pick.


    Don't take my word for it. Let's have the post-draft summer PD party chime in. I ragged on the pick at that party. I have video of some of the positive Tyler stuff that was said. Ask BillS, Gnome, Hicks, Peck or whomever else was there. Gamble as I recall, DiamondDave, a good portion of all the regulars. You might have been at that party too I think.

    I was the only downer person on that pick in the place. Maybe 1-2 others max.

    More people said that JOB wouldn't use him because he couldn't shoot the 3 than thought Tyler wasn't going to be a solid player.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Don't take my word for it. Let's have the post-draft summer PD party chime in. I ragged on the pick at that party. I have video of some of the positive Tyler stuff that was said. Ask BillS, Gnome, Hicks, Peck or whomever else was there. Gamble as I recall, DiamondDave, a good portion of all the regulars. You might have been at that party too I think.

    I was the only downer person on that pick in the place. Maybe 1-2 others max.

    More people said that JOB wouldn't use him because he couldn't shoot the 3 than thought Tyler wasn't going to be a solid player.
    I was at the "preseason party" and many guys if remember right were just OK with the pick, I also remember that you were dissapointed.

    I was the guy that said at the party that Tyler was the right complement to Roy and if I remember right, whoever was in front of me(Thunderbird maybe?) was the only person agreeing with me about Tyler.

    I don't know if you remember this but I was the guy who said that one of the reason why they drafted Hansbrough was in big part to bring the Indianapolis fans back and you agreed with me
    Last edited by vnzla81; 03-24-2011 at 11:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerHound View Post
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    What accomodations does Unclebuck want Tyler to make to their game?
    Specifically - you CAN NOT slip off a shooting screen for Danny because you are trying to get yourself free for a potential shot. Danny is counting on you holding that shooting screen.

    Tyler DOES slip all picks and screens now. Always. He doesn't hold contact like a role playing big does (Josh, Foster).


    Tyler is moving and spacing to get himself free for a shot on offense. I understand why since he always was the main option prior to the NBA but that doesn't make it correct now.



    This doesn't even get into the defensive end where he (and Paul) are both really dropping the team defense ball and putting guys like Roy and Jeff into tougher spots. If Tyler doesn't rotate and this forces Roy to come help and results in the foul, that's not helping Roy or the team out.

    This isn't Tyler getting beat directly and it's not a Tyler foul, so people don't see it as a problem. They see him making shots and that's where the analysis of his game ends.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Almost every time Tyler shoots his jumper 2 to 3 ft inside the arc , usually on the left of the FT line .. it is automatic..
    His shooting form , and release is almost always perfect and straight from what I have noticed..

    I love that he has worked on it and augmented it into his arsenal..
    Like I said, it is almost automatic..
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I don't think it takes the NBA that long to figure players out. They don't need a whole offseason.

    Roy started off the season playing really well, and then teams adjusted after the first month. If Tyler can string together two whole months of this, I think it's a safe assumption that he can continue it into next season as well.
    You'd think they'd already be taking away his jumper if they were going to, right? I mean I didn't get to watch the Boston game, so maybe they did, but otherwise it almost seems like teams are more willing to let him take that jumper than risk him attacking the hoop. Which, you'd think, that's backwards since this isn't the NCAA, but I don't know what else to think. It's not like your opponents don't keep tabs on you, especially when they're scheduled to play you soon. So teams know he's been hitting those shots.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    You'd think they'd already be taking away his jumper if they were going to, right? I mean I didn't get to watch the Boston game, so maybe they did, but otherwise it almost seems like teams are more willing to let him take that jumper than risk him attacking the hoop. Which, you'd think, that's backwards since this isn't the NCAA, but I don't know what else to think. It's not like your opponents don't keep tabs on you, especially when they're scheduled to play you soon. So teams know he's been hitting those shots.
    Boston definitely took away his jumper.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    The issue with that is that the offense has not been better when those three are together. By any stretch. It has actually been poorer with Tyler starting than with him off the bench.

    This is not an indictment of Tyler. It is a fact. He puts up numbers. That is a good thing. But he doesn't improve the offense. He just changes it.

    The Pacers average 98.6 points per game in the 19 Tyler starts. They average 101.8 in the others.

    Roy averages 8.8 points per game in the 19 Tyler starts. He averages 13.9 in the others.

    The question shouldn't be whether you are okay with Tyler getting 21, Danny getting 20, and Roy getting 15.

    The question should be if you are okay with Tyler getting 16, Danny getting 20, and Roy getting 9. Because those are their averages when Tyler starts.

    This is why the thread that was started that about Tyler or Roy makes sense. They don't seem to be a very good combo. I would lean towards picking Tyler because you know what you will get from him most nights but I can see both arguments.
    To be fair, Tyler didn't have the luxury of being the benefactor of Roy's hot start of the season, either. What happens when you remove Roy's first month?

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Specifically - you CAN NOT slip off a shooting screen for Danny because you are trying to get yourself free for a potential shot. Danny is counting on you holding that shooting screen.

    Tyler DOES slip all picks and screens now. Always. He doesn't hold contact like a role playing big does (Josh, Foster).


    Tyler is moving and spacing to get himself free for a shot on offense. I understand why since he always was the main option prior to the NBA but that doesn't make it correct now.



    This doesn't even get into the defensive end where he (and Paul) are both really dropping the team defense ball and putting guys like Roy and Jeff into tougher spots. If Tyler doesn't rotate and this forces Roy to come help and results in the foul, that's not helping Roy or the team out.

    This isn't Tyler getting beat directly and it's not a Tyler foul, so people don't see it as a problem. They see him making shots and that's where the analysis of his game ends.
    I love the way Tyler has been playing lately. Who doesn't? But that doesn't mean he is a perfect player by any means. And Seth has pointed out what I have been noticing from Tyler all season, especially the defensive rotations. He is still lost on defense. He is ok with one on one stuff, but when it comes to rotations its ugly and he often misses them or is super late. It is exactly why Danny and Foster get on him. This also leaves him out of place to box out for rebounds.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    To be fair, Tyler didn't have the luxury of being the benefactor of Roy's hot start of the season, either. What happens when you remove Roy's first month?
    If you do that, don't you also have to remove Tyler's hot last month from consideration?

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    To be fair, Tyler didn't have the luxury of being the benefactor of Roy's hot start of the season, either. What happens when you remove Roy's first month?
    What about Granger shooting ~42% on the season? He recently had a 4 or 5 game stretch where he wasnt above 37%.

    Keeping things in context is critical.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Boston definitely took away his jumper.
    I am not sure on that. In the first half he missed 4 or 5 good looks and a couple of those were layups. He still got good looks they just didnt fall.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Exactly.


    What sucks is that if it weren't for all this bizarre overreaction we could have really sane, interesting discussions of his progression
    This is almost as much of a straw man as the one you were complaining about. Yes, there are more of them than there are of you/Mackey/whomever, but neither of you is the majority, and you're both just a noisy minority that sometimes causes the rest of us wish we had earmuffs.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Tyler is what Troy was EXCEPT that he gives you defense and much higher value rebounds (ie, tough ones that you might not have gotten without Tyler).
    Uh, aren't you forgetting something? He's not nearly as powerful of an NBA player as he was an NCAA player, but he still bangs a LOT more than Troy ever, EVER did offensively, and you leave out what you already talked about earlier in this post, which is his free throw attempts. I can't believe you left these two out when you wrote this line.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    If you do that, don't you also have to remove Tyler's hot last month from consideration?
    No, because I'm working on the idea that Tyler's turned a corner, whereas I'm not sure Roy really did.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    On another note, I wish the trinity of Seth, Mackey, and Brush would nitpick Josh's weaknesses as in depth and as often as they do Tyler's. I know they like Josh's game better, and they don't like that Josh doesn't have the love that Tyler gets, but nonetheless, I wish there was more balance when it comes to nitpicking Josh (in frequency and complexity).

    Quoting this post and giving me a once-and-only response about Josh's weaknesses is not what I mean, either.

    I guess I just get tired of seeing Tyler dissected like yesterday's murder victim over and over again, while Josh (in comparison) gets a pass from them.

    I know, I know, it comes back to 'too much' love for Tyler, and personal preferences, but that's not the point. It would make all of the Tyler talk a lot easier to take.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    To be fair, Tyler didn't have the luxury of being the benefactor of Roy's hot start of the season, either. What happens when you remove Roy's first month?
    To be fair, he also didn't have the detriment of Roy's miserable December.

    I would rather not cherry pick statistics.

    That Roy has played worse with Tyler is pretty obvious to the eye test. It is confirmed by the stats.

    That our team's offense is actually somewhat worse despite Tyler's very solid personal numbers is not as obvious but is also confirmed by simple stats.
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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by JEM View Post
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    I am not sure on that. In the first half he missed 4 or 5 good looks and a couple of those were layups. He still got good looks they just didnt fall.
    Well, it was the first time someone bothered to guard his jumper.

    I expect people to adjust to Tyler's game. Boston could do it quickly because they are so good defensively. It may take other teams a little while (probably the playoffs, we'll see it again.)

    But I've said it before..in terms of Josh versus Tyler..I think Josh is more talented. Much more talented. But I think it's pretty obvious that I don't think that talent = amazing player...or even the player that works really hard.

    I expect Tyler Hansbrough to be the best possible basketball player he can possibly be. And that's a talent in itself. Not everyone can have the focus and energy and ability to just go 110 percent at all times. And I know he'll do the same in the off season when he's working on his game.

    Josh..I don't know. And I don't mean I don't know because I'm unsure..I mean I don't know because I really haven't gotten a read on him. I don't think he's at Tyler's level on that end of the spectrum..but I've seen..maybe..three or four players that are..still..he's talented..and his skills are unique that I can see where Seth and Mackey are coming from.

    edit: Our offense was struggling a lot though, and then Tyler and PG were inserted..and it picked up again. So I think that particular stat is misleading.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Specifically - you CAN NOT slip off a shooting screen for Danny because you are trying to get yourself free for a potential shot. Danny is counting on you holding that shooting screen.

    Tyler DOES slip all picks and screens now. Always. He doesn't hold contact like a role playing big does (Josh, Foster).


    Tyler is moving and spacing to get himself free for a shot on offense. I understand why since he always was the main option prior to the NBA but that doesn't make it correct now.



    This doesn't even get into the defensive end where he (and Paul) are both really dropping the team defense ball and putting guys like Roy and Jeff into tougher spots. If Tyler doesn't rotate and this forces Roy to come help and results in the foul, that's not helping Roy or the team out.

    This isn't Tyler getting beat directly and it's not a Tyler foul, so people don't see it as a problem. They see him making shots and that's where the analysis of his game ends.
    But if Tyler's been the most efficient scorer...maybe he should be slipping. As I said..if Tyler keeps it up..and we keep winning as a result..than the other guys need to suck it up and adjust to Tyler.

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    Default Re: Hansbrough - What Does It Take To Please

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    On another note, I wish the trinity of Seth, Mackey, and Brush would nitpick Josh's weaknesses as in depth and as often as they do Tyler's. I know they like Josh's game better, and they don't like that Josh doesn't have the love that Tyler gets, but nonetheless, I wish there was more balance when it comes to nitpicking Josh (in frequency and complexity).

    Quoting this post and giving me a once-and-only response about Josh's weaknesses is not what I mean, either.

    I guess I just get tired of seeing Tyler dissected like yesterday's murder victim over and over again, while Josh (in comparison) gets a pass from them.

    I know, I know, it comes back to 'too much' love for Tyler, and personal preferences, but that's not the point. It would make all of the Tyler talk a lot easier to take.
    All three of us have extensively written about Josh's weaknesses. And we have all said the same things. They are just as apparent as Tyler's are. But you aren't going to see it as often simply because he doesn't come up nearly as often.

    Josh can have a game like he did in Boston the other night and nobody mentions it. You don't see these types of threads about anyone but Tyler. He's unquestionably the most popular Pacer and there are threads asking how he can please the fan base? It is illogical.

    We've made statements why we prefer Josh to Tyler and then we are generally laughed at. We show simple stats which back up our reasonings then we are called negative, fanboys, or worse.

    When I say our offense does not look better, despite Tyler's scoring, it just is altered, I am not being negative. I'm just saying what I see. When I say that our team scores fewer points per game starting Tyler I am not using some wild contrived and biased stat. It is just evidence.

    Sure, I could just be a parrot in every thread and shout "NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY TO PLAY AGAINST TYLER HANSBROUGH!!!" or type "what a beast" all the time but I would rather take a more analytical approach.

    The Pacers score 1.08 points per possession with McRoberts on the floor. They give up 1.05.

    The Pacers score 1.05 points per possession with Tyler on the floor. They give up 1.08.

    So maybe opponents should want to play against Tyler Hansbrough. They may end up more bruised but their win/loss record would be better. And that is the only stat that matters.
    Last edited by BRushWithDeath; 03-25-2011 at 12:33 AM.
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