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Thread: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bird Fan View Post
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    And then instead of Jwoww courtside, we'd have Kim Kardashian.
    We do need one sensationally hot famous chic courtside. I'm sure that would help the boys play better.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Good points, i do think that Lance has the talent to be the past passer for a guard position, by far , on the team
    I would love to see Lance at the shooting guard position and see which he is better at. I just don't think he's solely a point. Hopefully next year he'll be able to showcase him at both positions more.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

  3. #53

    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    And I hate that our PGs just dribble the ball around till the end of the shot clock and everyone just stands around and it's hard to get a good look that way. Lots of contested shots and it also leads to our many shot clock violations.

    Too many isos for players while everyone else just stands and watches. I saw way too many isos for D Jones, that was not fun to watch at all!

    Is it too much to ask for to move the ball around?


    IIRC, the pacers switched to this offense to get away from the JOB motion offense. because it was too hard. or because DC didn't like it.

    that said, i agree with your post. the simplifed offense is nice when your players can run it. pacer offense needs some work in the off season. i would like to see more passing game/motion offense myself.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Also..forgot to add..

    I know Mike Dun gets a little bit of "hate" for his wardrobe choices. I thought he dressed nice last night.

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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    I would love to see Lance at the shooting guard position and see which he is better at. I just don't think he's solely a point. Hopefully next year he'll be able to showcase him at both positions more.
    I see him in the Dwayne Wade mode, Not a PG per say, but a SG with great passing ability
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    We do need one sensationally hot famous chic courtside. I'm sure that would help the boys play better.
    Yep

    Unfortunately, neither of those two do it for me

    JMHO
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Also..forgot to add..

    I know Mike Dun gets a little bit of "hate" for his wardrobe choices. I thought he dressed nice last night.
    Was he rockin another mustard colored or plaid suit jacket ?

    Please describe, I like fashion

    I'm a Metro-sexual Thug

    JK
    Last edited by 90'sNBARocked; 03-22-2011 at 04:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    IIRC, the pacers switched to this offense to get away from the JOB motion offense. because it was too hard. or because DC didn't like it.

    that said, i agree with your post. the simplifed offense is nice when your players can run it. pacer offense needs some work in the off season. i would like to see more passing game/motion offense myself.
    I didn't get to see the offense before. Didn't know about live feeds until after JOB was fired. Surely motion offenses aren't difficult, or was JOB's just absurdly difficult/didn't make sense/stupid?
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

  10. #59

    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Was he rockin another mustard colored or plaid suit jacket ?

    Please describe, I like fashion

    I'm a Metro-sexual Thug

    JK
    corduroy jacket with a purple pocket square and a purple button up shirt. I liked it.

    And I think Obie's offense was too complicated.

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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    corduroy jacket with a purple pocket square and a purple button up shirt. I liked it.

    And I think Obie's offense was too complicated.


    He is the Kayne West of the NBA

    I bet in his off days he rocks skinny jeans , and tight V-Necks

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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    He needs to engage it in the first half.
    Exactly. It's not "clutch" to stop shooting 1-8 and drifting way too far away from your man on defense. It's called "finally doing your job".

    Danny has been a great player in prior seasons and at times has been great this year. I don't dislike him, but he did earn his new contract for a reason. The bar for Danny's play is set at where he's been and how he's paid. He's past learning how to play.

    This is the dude that didn't miss one single second after having his teeth slammed out when his face hit the floor. So we know the will is in there somewhere and certainly the skill is too.

    He needs to get back to being that guy for a lot more than just part of the 2nd half.

    We've got a lot of young kids learning how to play which makes them inconsistant. Danny doesn't have an excuse for inconstancy.

    Having ranted about Danny a bit I will add this - summer Team USA work might be wearing him down when paired with poor coaching and a lot of losing.

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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    It does wonders when teammates are able to get him the ball deep in the post.
    It also does wonders when Lopez overplays and ends up fronting Roy by mistake.

    I like the general talent of Brook, but man is his defensive position play pretty poor. Just what the doctor ordered to get Roy back on track, like some FTAs for a shooter that's gone cold.

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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    And I think Obie's offense was too complicated.
    It required reads to know when/where to move away from the ball. It's one thing to run a play that has 2-3 options as it progresses, as in "PnR high, PG to the lane, if cutoff by Big help then dump back to big, if defense has overplayed the help defense from the weakside then kick to the SG waiting in the corner".

    From that you could make an adjustment that might be as simple as "let's got PnPop for a little bit since they are dropping to the lane so hard" or "they feint the help and then jump back to cover the corner, so SG goes to the top wing and then cuts that weakside lane for the pass while already driving".

    Everyone still knows the play. The PG has to know if he's cutoff and maybe if his pass is to the Big or the SG, but reps in practice give him a sense of that.


    Now with JOB it's more like each other guy has to read and decide if it's a good time to cut, come set a pick, when to set a shooting screen away from the ball, etc. If you are a vet team that knows each other well (ie, Pacers of the late 90's) then this is fine. Dale would know where Reggie wanted a screen, when he was looking for it, when he need to stay out of Rik's way because he'd seen it all before.

    How the F can Tyler or Paul have any sense of what Roy or Rush or Josh are wanting to do at this point?

    The ONLY motion chemistry I saw this year was between Josh and Dunleavy.

    Everyone else stands and tries to figure out what to do. They don't move because they don't want to get in someone else's way and they are all waiting for someone else to make a move for them to play off of.


    IMO you start simple with a group of guys and then as they tighten up those plays and get to know each other THEN you start to expand it and/or free them up to decide when to take certain actions.




    None of this is Vogel's fault. He did a great job to kill the bombs away game. Went back through his bigs, lots of attacking, FTAs went up. The problem is that he hasn't (and won't) had the time to develop a proper full playbook for that style of play.

    And this doesn't mean you bring him back regardless. It's possible that he's a better analyst than play designer. I have no idea.

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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The ONLY motion chemistry I saw this year was between Josh and Dunleavy.

    Everyone else stands and tries to figure out what to do. They don't move because they don't want to get in someone else's way and they are all waiting for someone else to make a move for them to play off of.
    The thing is, this is still a major problem.

    Everyone has been giving DC crap for a long time. Well, it's darn near impossible to run any sort of offense, other than calling a big over for a PnR, when EVERYONE simply sits and stares at you.

    Roy..will try and post up, but seeing as no one else moves no other defender moves, so Roy is posting up..and no one is in a position to get him the ball.

    Once again, I look at Danny here. He's the vet..I expect PG to be a bit confused..but Danny..come on..he knows how basketball should work.

    I agree with you, JOB's offense is probably fine (although the stretch 4 bothers me..but..that's certainly not necessary in a motion offense) with a vet group that's been running it for a few years..this group..um no..

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  19. #65

    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Even with an offense lacking motion, we could still use some swinging around the perimeter to create opportunities. I stopped counting how many times the ball stays on one side of the floor during a possession. I think that's worse than no movement.

  20. #66
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    JOB's motion offense had some nice moments. I'll give him props for that.

    The problem, as Seth pointed out, was that JOB had made a strategic choice to go with perimeter offense rather than force feed the post. (He talked differently and had times of forcing it into the post, but quickly would lose resolve. Unlike Vogel, JOB just never really did believe in Roy or Tyler.)

    So, yes, we are better off right now with a more sluggish offense that starts things inside out and provides more shots in the paint for more FTA. Yes, it would be nice to see more plays run, more movement allowing better looks, but I can live with waiting until next year. Vogel has made the better strategic decision.
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Probably not the correct thread for this, but there is one thing I will probably never understand. What happened between O'Brien and Tyler. From all evidence Jim loved Tyler his rookie year. Jim played him as many minutes as the doctors allowed, and only stopped playing him when Tyler could not play anymore.

    Move on to this season, Tyler was brought along slowly during training camp and preseason. We heard a few comments from JOB about Tyler not knowing the offense, but I don't think that explains why Hansbrough didn't play more - until he was moved into the starting lineup against the Spurs.

    Were there any doctors restrictions placed on Tyler at the beginning of the season?

  22. #68
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Probably not the correct thread for this, but there is one thing I will probably never understand. What happened between O'Brien and Tyler. From all evidence Jim loved Tyler his rookie year. Jim played him as many minutes as the doctors allowed, and only stopped playing him when Tyler could not play anymore.

    Move on to this season, Tyler was brought along slowly during training camp and preseason. We heard a few comments from JOB about Tyler not knowing the offense, but I don't think that explains why Hansbrough didn't play more - until he was moved into the starting lineup against the Spurs.

    Were there any doctors restrictions placed on Tyler at the beginning of the season?
    I know, it never made sense to me what was going on, here.

    I thought maybe it was the options at PF he had available last year vs this year, but really it couldn't be that. If anything with Murphy gone, you should have had more minutes available at that spot for Tyler.

  23. #69
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Sookie proffered an interesting theory a while back: JOB always wanted to have at least one vet at every position. That's why TJ kept weirdly replacing AJ. That's partly why Murph got so much time.

    This year, it explains the craziness of giving Posey so much time. So, factor that in, along with Tyler missing defensive assignments and Josh doing really well, and JOB had to choose Tyler as the bench warmer for the 4 spot.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  24. #70

    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Sookie proffered an interesting theory a while back: JOB always wanted to have at least one vet at every position. That's why TJ kept weirdly replacing AJ. That's partly why Murph got so much time.

    This year, it explains the craziness of giving Posey so much time. So, factor that in, along with Tyler missing defensive assignments and Josh doing really well, and JOB had to choose Tyler as the bench warmer for the 4 spot.
    I still really think that. And if our vets weren't bad (or being played out of position) then it would make sense. It also explains why when JOB was told to start Tyler, Josh went from starter to inactive.

  25. #71
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Probably not the correct thread for this, but there is one thing I will probably never understand. What happened between O'Brien and Tyler. From all evidence Jim loved Tyler his rookie year. Jim played him as many minutes as the doctors allowed, and only stopped playing him when Tyler could not play anymore.

    Move on to this season, Tyler was brought along slowly during training camp and preseason. We heard a few comments from JOB about Tyler not knowing the offense, but I don't think that explains why Hansbrough didn't play more - until he was moved into the starting lineup against the Spurs.

    Were there any doctors restrictions placed on Tyler at the beginning of the season?
    What I'm about to type will come across as an attack against Tyler Hansbrough but it is not intended to be that.

    IMO why Tyler & Jim never got along is probably the same reason Tyler would not get along with a Mike D'Antoni, Phil Jackson or any other coach who has a rigourus offensive system that they run.

    Tyler only really knows one way to play basketball, now it has proven over the course of his life to be a winning way but he is always going to be the proverbial round peg while structured offenses that rely on ball movement will be the square hole.

    He will pass and look to pass when he is at the top of the key, but once he gets the ball in the paint area unless he is triple teamed (and sometimes even then) he is going to go up with a shot.

    It's not that he couldn't hit a three or that there were veterans in front of him, simply put he did not fit into Jim's offensive scheme of ball movement. Same reason why Dahntay Jones never played, these are players who actually tend to stop ball movement not facilitate it.

    If you really want a mystery you should wonder why Jim did not like Josh more than he did because in all honesty he really was about perfect for what he wanted other than being a dead eye three point shooter.

    I'll let you in on another of my personal opinions as well. I don't think Danny really likes playing with Tyler all that much because he is not a facilitator of offense and Danny is not a good enough ball handler to run PnR's with Tyler although if they could ever get that going they would be a killer combo on the offensive end.

    AGAIN, this is not an attack on Tyler. I much prefer him to anything Jim O'Brien did, I'm just saying that my opinion is that Jim wanted read and react and ball movement while Tyler's game is that of a Bull dancing the ballet.

    Just two different world views, no one really at fault.


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  27. #72
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I don't think Danny really likes playing with Tyler all that much because he is not a facilitator of offense and Danny is not a good enough ball handler to run PnR's with Tyler although if they could ever get that going they would be a killer combo on the offensive end.
    I've thought this too. I think Danny has eluded to as much with some of the things he's said before.

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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I've thought this too. I think Danny has eluded to as much with some of the things he's said before.
    Wouldn't it be great if those two stuck around in the summer to work with each other? We know Roy and Paul will be here working. Those are the types of things that could really bring this young team together and make us a lot better.

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  31. #74
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    Default Re: Pacers/NJ postgame thread

    I'm really excited to see Paul George's improvement next year.


    And Roy, for that matter.

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