But I'm not a fan of quick, unfounded sniping. It's never going to be my style.
And CDash, this is what I mean. I guess to you guys it looks like a big long angry rant, but I'm just a detail oriented freak who digs into most serious discussion topics this way. Tonight I've posted about Tyler and Henderson, and Henderson only because Judicata brought it up.
Don't worry, my time off window is about to slam shut again. And honestly I think if I did make PPT presentations they'd be more popular. Pix, colors and motion are more palatable than 500 word rants full of stats.
And once again - I like Tyler, I'm rooting for Tyler, I love seeing Tyler hitting that turn around jumper.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 03-14-2011 at 01:21 AM.
You spend so much time fighting tooth and nail against the inequities of "people who love Tyler more than statistics and objective analysis warrant" for me to take you seriously on this subject.
I suppose an observant person would point out that I spend too much time fighting tooth and nail against the inequities of "people who spend too much time fighting tooth and nail against the inequities of people who love Tyler more than statistics and objective analysis warrant."
But let me be perfectly clear: I think you are wrong and biased. You do not celebrate Tyler. He has grown, and you have begrudgingly acknowledged as much. But you are constantly marginalizing his performances and quick to find whatever weakness in his game that you can. You spend more time trying to cement his ceiling than commenting on ways he can grow.
But we both know that the well of reasons to dismiss the kid is going dry. He's fg% is up. He's playing against starters. He's put more moves into his arsenal. His defense is getting better. His passing, at least tonight, seems more responsive. You were right before, and you might even be right now. But if he keeps improving, you're going to be dead wrong.
But typically if Tyler is doing "holy crap how great is this guy" stuff then certainly Josh is too.
The closest thing to "Josh love" we've ever had was all the PD guys joking around at summer league with the legend of Josh stuff, the wiki modifications and emails to Dante/Galante during the Orlando webcast.
And frankly Tyler has had it easier in terms of respect than Josh has. Josh was a low pick, no minutes in Portland, no minutes under JOB the first 2 years, had to watch Bird draft another PF and watch JOB play that PF 20 minutes a night until he got injured while giving Josh a slew of DNPs.
Tyler had to fight for minutes kinda a bit after coming back from his inner ear/PostConc issue.
Tyler came in with a huge fanbase, most Pacers fans didn't even know who the heck Josh was after the Portland trade - except for all the IU fans that hated him for going to Duke. Wee, some fanbase. I was one of those that didn't know who he was even.
If Tyler was a 35th pick and most of PD was saying he should be traded and wasn't worth playing you damn sure better believe you'd be seeing page long rants about how Tyler needs respect.
But that's not the situation. The situation is that a 6'9" undersized PF is being called a "beast", and that's by the head coach. The PD fanbase eats that up in full agreement.
Mackey and I are happy but leery of reading too much into this. I mean Collison with 8 assists, so it's only a matter of time before he's an all-star PG right? History is being made and all that.
I don't think Seth is saying that something similar to what I was saying about Lance and DC. Which was, 1..you guys are over hyping, and 2..stop putting down DC to hype him up.
I don't think people are putting down Josh as much as they were previously, to hype up Tyler. But...quite frankly..I think it's still there a bit.
become a huge hansbro fan after seeing him play in 29 games last season, and knew of who he was at UNC but didnt watch all his games in fact im not a UNC fan so i didnt care.
this much i know, and ive played a helluva lot ball in my day.
Hansbrough is the kinda player you want on your team, and friggin hate to go up against unless you really enjoy the challenge. he will scrap and claw for every second of the game.
but i like McRob, he needs to add muscle, and forget 500 3's, work on the mid range game. would not surprise me at all to see McRob become a solid first big of the bench at the 4/5 position for a number of teams. he needs to add muscle.
im a fan of both players, but i think hansbroughs ceiling is higher, but not by much if mcrob gets in the weight room and works on his mid range game. mcrob can post a little as well, needs more strentgh but he can get up.
intersting looking back at this draft. Hansbrough has a solid chance of becoming the second best PF of this class.
I will have been dead wrong in my draft night/early rookie predictions for his NBA success. I have no problem admitting that even.
But can we at least wait till we get to that point before I actually have to admit it? Or do I need to bring up a boatload of big scoring/rebounding nights from DeJuan Blair to really put this Tyler run in perspective. It's not like he hasn't had a couple of 20/10 nights this season you know.
Hey, Blair went 18/12 and then 28/11 the next game, he shot 14/21 in that 2nd game. A bit earlier in the season he had back to back games of 22/11 and 18/13. So clearly if Tyler is on his way to all-star status then Blair is too.
It cuts both ways. I haven't been in here saying the Pacers still blew it between trading down and getting Blair for cheap vs taking Tyler high (or maybe drafting Jrue AND Blair). But according to the reaction to Tyler's recent games it sounds like I would be justified to do just that.
How about instead we recognize that 20/10 is obtainable by young players, and that while it's great to see how Tyler has played lately it is a very small window.
I said Tyler's 2nd half vs Philly was one of the best bits of basketball for the Pacers ALL SEASON after that game. Still not enough for you.
There is just no way I'm the one that's unreasonable.
i find your comments fair. im certainly not going to declare him an allstar but i have went on record as saying he can become a carlos boozer clone, but that is 3-5 years from now.
right now, many doubted hansbrough would be able to make it in the nba, because as you pointed out, hansbrough is undersized (reason i compare his ceiling to boozer), and not as athletic as nba players.
to put it briefly, hansbrough is looking more like a quality starting PF in this league, when many of the "experts" would have said quality bench player.
still a long ways to go, but the kid can play, and might turn out to be a david west/ maybe even carlos boozer veteran.
the issue with blair was the injury concerns. he was a lottery talent. how he fell to the 2nd round is uncomprehendable. if hindsight were 20/20 i think Bird woulda taken Holliday or Lawson, knowing Blair would be available at the end of the first. Blair was a player Bird had in here for predraft camp.
it also helps significantly blair is playing for a well run organization like SA.. with 2 HOF players and a couple allstars and a great coach.
same with rondo, had we drafted him he may not be viewed as a top 5 pg around the league so overwhelmingly.
I don't think he needs the muscle actually.
What he needs is to learn to use his speed and handles to develop a mid to inside scoring game. He's shown he can initiate drives to the rim, but he's not great at finishing his own dribble. He's shown with practice that he can get the 3 going so he can have that mid-range game, but he hasn't been able to turn that into a major weapon either.
But to me his game looks a lot like Rush, it looks like he usually chooses to move the ball to a more primary scoring option. He's far more willing to return the ball and then set the ball screen than he is to take the long jumper.
When he does take long jumpers it looks more like a Foster special in the "must keep them honest" reluctant shot than a Tyler/Danny/Paul/DJ/Price manner of "I can't wait to shoot this".
Where he's been at his best is as the entry pass guy for Roy, but with Roy struggling this is lost. Josh doesn't have the back down low post offense to threaten with either, he wants to slip backdoor for the oop or a pass in the lane instead.
He's got the handles, if he could add a Bosh like jumper and show enough control to drive to the rim he'd be a lethal offensive power with the passing he already has. He doesn't need muscle for that.
What he needs is a summer off where the coach isn't making him shoot 500 threes just so he can get on the court.
Totally agree Eleazar, I mentioned something along those lines before the Tyler subplot erupted.I believe what this game showed is that we DO have a team of TALENTED players, and when their heads are in the game they are talented enough to be a legit playoff team competing for the 4-6 seeds.
I felt very confident about them when they went to LA for that Laker game because at the time JOB seemed focused on the low post game of Roy and lots of Josh PT instead of Posey. Then that twisted away and the team lost ground. Ditto with Vogel and then we saw them emotionally implode.
You don't need to blow it up at all, you just need this development period which includes EMOTIONAL DEVELOPMENT, they are finding out now how much they can be their own worst enemy.
Sure you will still tweek and hopefully can add one more pretty big piece to the puzzle, but this isn't the junk team they pretended to be the last few weeks.
Really we beat the knicks tonight. Hopefully, we can come out with the same intensity on Tuesday.
i like DJones on Melo. if Danny doesnt start playing D then start DJones and George.
At least DJones will play defense, and Paul was having a good game offensively until he had foul trouble.
Good Win for the Blue & Gold tonight
lets see if it continues on Tuesday.
aaaaaaannnnnnnd cue all the Granger trade threads.
Since you asked, here are my issues with Josh:
He doesn't show any desire to score. He has the ability, he doesn't have the mindset. He seems to get more personal pleasure out of making a good pass to a cutting teammate for a bucket than he does for getting his own. With his skills as a ball handler, combined with his athleticism he should be able to beat his man from the perimeter almost at will. It seems like he does it when he tries, he just doesn't try to.
I don't think he has a great natural instincts as a rebounder. Several people have commented on here that "he doesn't box out." I don't think that's the problem, because I see him try to do it pretty consistently. I think the problem is that he doesn't start trying to get position early enough. He usually waits until the shot goes up, and when matched up against the good, experienced rebounders around the league, I think they are able to recognize the situation faster.
Those are my major complaints. I don't expect, or even want him to be a 20-10 type of guy. That isn't his game, but I do think if he was given an extended opportunity with starter-type minutes that several games of 12-8-5-2-1 wouldn't be out of the question.
Here is what I like about Tyler:
He plays with extreme effort. Always. He never slows down, and he energizes the entire team with his play. Opponents don't like it, and if he can maintain that kind of effort for 82 games, it is invaluable.
He wants to be the man. I think the only way he knows how to play is as a number 1 scoring option. While I personally don't like that he rarely ever even considers passing, when his shot is falling, he is an extremely effective scorer. When his shot isn't falling, I think he hurts more than he helps, but the last few games his shot has been falling.
Tyler is a scorer, Josh is a more complete well-rounded player. The complete player just happens to be the kind of player I tend to appreciate more.
Why are you still comparing Josh and Tyler?
Maybe thats why you're gonna see pro-Tyler threads all the time.
There is no comparison. One is better than the other. Sorry.
I'am not even a fan of Tyler, but it should be pretty clear by now.
In three years let's revisit this topic and see where both are at when you have a few years of meaningful data for comparison instead of one year of pseudo starter stats to compare. It's really quite pointless.
If you could put Tyler's motor in Josh's chassis, Good God!!!
"But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetime’s worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."
Could this be viewed the other way. Danny was the low quality teammate on Team USA, and maybe he got used to it.
I wonder if he has a problem with Tyler (or feels intimidated by him?) I've only been watching on TV but he does seem to yell at him a lot. I said this before, but Danny has some issues getting through screens (lack of effort?) and then he takes it on on Tyler for the help defense.
I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but 16 and 8 for DC tonight. Good sign, no?
I'm a bit surprised at what I percieve as an anti-Tyler sentiment on here (yes, I know, you're just being realistic...)
Both Tyler and PG are basically rookies, but if George had been averaging about 20 a game over the last couple weeks people on here would be heralding him as the next great superstar. Hell, people were doing that when he first got 10 points in a game.
Look, Tyler's play as late is what it is. Very good. I don't see why we need to be projecting his next bad shooting night or denigrating him based on what might happen in the next game.
He's playing with effort, he's a rookie, and his play has been getting both on offense and defense as he's got more experience. That's plenty to be excited about.
And I don't see why there has to be a negative Hans and McRoberts debate (I mean you can debate them, but I like them both and I want them both on my team.) PF is not really our problem.
It's always that way with fans. It will NEVER change. The Allstar label has been put on Roy, DC, Tyler, PG and STEPHENSON by PD posters this season. Over zealous fans have a habit of seeing what they want to see in their players... Allstars.
Numerous fans thought Harrington coming back to play with JO was the savior the Pacers needed. WE all know how that worked out!!
"Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
- Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh
PST... I defend GH as well. He's not the terrible pick that has no future in the NBA as SOME suggest. If he was wearing the Blue n Gold, he'd be an up and coming young player, but since he isn't, he's nothing.
He's being given a chance to play now with Brown gone, and now with Wallace traded. Jackson is now playing SF which gives Henderson the opportunity to start at SG, and with the stats he's put up since all this has taken place it shows Brown held back his progress. Then Brown never was much of a play the rookies type coach. It's how Jimmy held back McBob and Tylers progress, but Henderson's development couldn't have been held back by Brown. Brown didn't play Henderson = Henderson is nothing.
Or is it that Seth liked him, so that means Henderson isn't much?
Hicks is dead on. Of course we are looking at Tyler with blinded optimism. The dude broke alot of MJs scoring records at UNC, and dominated his senior year as the best player in the country, and maybe one of the best seasons/careers ever by a college player. I don't know how he fell to us, but he already is outplaying several players drafted before him.
So far since starting, he is at 22 and 8, and instead of not having the lateral quickness, or elevation that some claim, I see essentially a rookie who is growing into a monster. He is getting way up there in the sky, and his post defense/lateral quickness in the post is already the best on the team.
I'm a huge McRoberts supporter as well. I think we have found our tandem for the foreseeable future. All we need is a really physical center to split time with Hibbert. I don't see why it is always about one or the other. Tyler has clearly proven he deserves to be the starter, but that doesn't mean the McRoberts/Hansbrough line-up isn't great at some points in the game. McBob is a guy who can play center. I also don't get why he has completely abandoned his 3pt shot. It was a valuable tool that he developed. He's passed up alot of wide open threes.
Of course I don't want Josh going back to chucking threes, but I thought it was a nice skill he developed. When is he going to drain a couple, or will Josh never shoot another 3 again?