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Thread: Kahn's PG rankings

  1. #1
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    Default Kahn's PG rankings

    I'm guessing most here will agree with #1 but hate 2-7. Here is the whole piece, the list is bolded if you want to skip to it

    http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/story/7708485

    These days, it's hard to fathom what a point guard in the NBA really is anymore.

    What we do know is he's the guy who handles the ball the majority of the time, is likely to have the most assists on his team and should be the best on-the-ball defender among the starters.

    Allen Iverson will run the show for the Sixers after several years at shooting guard. (Getty Images)
    And most important, he's the guy who will make everybody better.

    If you go by that theory, there is no doubt Jason Kidd -- with or without a surgically repaired left knee, whether he plays the first month of the season, whether the New Jersey Nets continue their deconstruction and deal him -- remains the best point guard in the NBA.

    And that leaves everybody else.

    Granted, the Phoenix Suns overpaid free agent Steve Nash because he is a proven floor leader who should help his young and restless teammates improve. And San Antonio Spurs prodigy Tony Parker has shown signs of being that kind of player.

    But the rest of the group has proved to have me-first, you-next inclinations.

    It's why Chauncey Billups struggled nearly the entire season and certainly into the playoffs as Pistons coach Larry Brown worked at transforming Billups into the kind of point guard who plays the right way. Ultimately it worked; the Pistons roared to the NBA title, and Billups was named MVP of the NBA Finals.

    Then again, we'll have to wait and see Year 2 of the great experiment to either acknowledge the transformation is complete or learn the Finals were just an aberration.

    His No. 2 ranking doesn't mean Allen Iverson isn't a special player and can't be a great point guard. New 76ers coach Jim O'Brien has made it clear he will play Iverson at the point despite Brown's insistence at playing Iverson at the shooting guard for their six seasons together in Philadelphia.

    "It was coach Brown's choice," Iverson said in an extended interview before the 2004 All-Star Game. "I always thought I should have the ball in my hands. I see the floor and can help my teammates get better shots."

    Of course, saying it and doing it are two different things. Brown went through a lot of the same pains during the Olympics with Stephon Marbury, another marvelously talented point guard who is inclined to shoot first. Although he and Oscar Robertson are the only players in history to average at least 20 points and eight assists for their careers, he was not the traditional playmaker Brown wanted either.

    Last year's rankings
    2004 Rank 2003 Stock
    1. J. Kidd 1 SAME
    2. A. Iverson 3-SG
    3. B. Davis 5
    4. C. Billups 9
    5. S. Cassell --
    6. S. Marbury 2
    7. S. Francis 4
    8. M. Bibby 7
    9. T. Parker --
    10. S. Nash 6
    Complete 2003 Rankings

    But Brown stuck with him throughout the Olympics and it got better, gradually.

    "It was tough," Marbury said. "But I learned a lot from him. It just takes time to adjust."

    And so it goes when it is instinctive to control the ball, but not include other players on a consistent basis.

    Steve Francis might be the most naturally gifted point guard in the whole group, but his inclination to put on a dribbling exhibition that runs down the shot clock, and ultimately force an off-balance shot, nearly drove Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy loony. Consequently, it precipitated a blockbuster trade that sent Francis to Orlando for Tracy McGrady.

    And then you have a career-long shoot-first point guard like Sam Cassell, who just happens to be coming off the best season of his career at the age of 34, leading the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Western Conference finals.

    So you see, it's possible to be effective as a shoot-first point guard. But it only works if there are mature players who accept it and are capable of helping the ball move.

    But if you ask any player in the league what point guard they would prefer to play with, you'd be, uh, kidding yourself to consider there would be any choice other than Jason Kidd.

    1. Jason Kidd, New Jersey Nets: He is 31 and his knee is a problem, but he's still the best at running an offense and his teammates love him.

    2. Allen Iverson, Philadelphia 76ers: This will be the most interesting season for the most exciting guard in the league to prove he can run an offense.

    3. Baron Davis, New Orleans Hornets: He is so gifted, and potentially better than any of these guys, but he's just too selfish too often.

    4. Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons: When Joe Dumars signed him as a free agent, he saw a lot of himself in Billups. This season we'll find out.

    5. Sam Cassell, Minnesota Timberwolves: Last season will be a tough act for him to follow, but if he does, the Timberwolves have a great shot to win the West.

    6. Stephon Marbury, New York Knicks: Isiah Thomas invested the future of the Knicks and his own credibility in Marbury. Will he step up this year?

    7. Steve Francis, Orlando Magic: It's impossible to know how getting traded will affect Francis, but he certainly has a lot to learn about running a team.

    8. Mike Bibby, Sacramento Kings: Some might believe he should be higher in this ranking, but defensive shortcomings and unpredictability in big games linger.

    9. Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs: He could end up being the best of this group with his quickness and all-around ability, but only if he improves.

    10. Steve Nash, Phoenix Suns: It appears age is catching up to him considering how he has tired the past couple of seasons. We'll see what he has left.


    Also receiving consideration: Gary Payton, Boston Celtics; Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat; Gilbert Arenas, Washington Wizards; Andre Miller, Denver Nuggets; Jason Terry, Dallas Mavericks; Jason Williams, Memphis Grizzlies; Carlos Arroyo, Utah Jazz; Eric Snow, Cleveland Cavaliers; Damon Stoudamire, Portland Trail Blazers.


  2. #2
    MZahm
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Nash might be getting old but there's no way that he's only the 10th best point guard in the league. I'd also include Arenas rather than Parker and slide Billups down to number 9. It somehow feels wrong to leave Wade out as well because I think he's gonna be a really special player, but the others are more proven so he's my number 11.

  3. #3
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Tinsley didn't even receive consideration

    We all know how important Tinsley is to this Pacers team...I think this year he will really prove himself averaging around 10ppg, and almost 8apg.

    Tinsley is not a flashy point guard like a lot of those guys - but he is just solid and gets the job done. I can't wait to see him mature over the next few years.

  4. #4
    Member Vicious Tyrant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    You know, looking at this list it indicates to me how few true "passing wizards" there are in the NBA - or even "true" Point Guards. We do have a rare talent with Tinsley - of course, his rare talent is offset by his weak defense and suspect passing [edit - duh, that's supposed to read "suspect SHOOTING"].

    It seems to me not unlike the Artest situation - do the freakishly high positive scores in one aspect of a player's game make up for the negatives in other aspects?
    [edit=501=1096033145][/edit]
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Allen Iverson? We are talking about poing guards here right?

    I thought point guards were suposed to pass the ball to other people on the team. Maybe I am way off base but considering Iverson a pg is part of the problem with the game today.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Iverson has beeen a shooting guard but with Eric Snow being traded he's moving to point guard this season.

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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Hinrick should be on that list.
    [edit=136=1096040679][/edit]

  8. #8

    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Even without his ridiculous salary, there's no way I'd take Damon Stoudamire over Tinsley, Hinrich, or about 5 other guys not on the "others" list
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    I'd remove Iverson. He has yet to prove he can play an effective point in the NBA. He's a very good SG, but that shouldnt automatically make him a good PG.

    I agree with pretty much everyone else on that list, but Remove Iverson and add Hinrich.

    Wade isn't a PG. He's a SG pretending to play PG.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    2003-2004 Stats:

    Pos. Name APG
    PG TINSLEY 5.8
    SG IVERSON 6.8

    Career Stats:

    Pos. Name APG
    SG IVERSON 5.7
    SG MILLER 3.0

    Somebody please teach Iverson how to pass.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Quote Originally Posted by Fool
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    2003-2004 Stats:

    Pos. Name APG
    PG TINSLEY 5.8
    SG IVERSON 6.8

    Career Stats:

    Pos. Name APG
    SG IVERSON 5.7
    SG MILLER 3.0

    Somebody please teach Iverson how to pass.

    Those numbers are incredibly skewed. Iverson touches the ball on EVERY PLAY. any decent PG would average 15 assists with the touches Iverson got.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Those numbers are incredibly skewed. Iverson touches the ball on EVERY PLAY. any decent PG would average 15 assists with the touches Iverson got.
    What PG doesn't touch the ball every play? And Iverson hasn't been the PG. Name another SG who is counted on to score so heavily and still distributes as much. The numbers aren't "skewed", they are what they are. Its your logic that leaves out pertinate information when valuing him. How can his assist numbers not go up if he is actually playing the position of PG instead of just making up for the lack of talent normally positioned at point in Philly. I like Snow, he works hard and carved out a career but he can't create open shots where none existed or see openings others miss.

  13. #13
    MZahm
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Assists per 48 mins:

    AI (03-04) - 7.7
    Tinsley (03-04) - 10.5

    AI (Career) - 6.6
    Reggie (Career) - 4.2




    Assists per TO;

    AI (03-04) - 1.5 (2.2 after the break - 9 games)
    Tinsley (03-04) - 2.8 (3.8 after the break - 24 games)

    AI (Career) - 1.6
    Miller (Career) - 1.7




    And just for kicks, FGA per Assist:

    AI (03-04) - 3.4
    Tinsley (03-04) - 1.2

    AI (Career) - 4.0
    Miller (Career) - 4.2

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Quote Originally Posted by MZahm
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    Assists per 48 mins:

    AI (03-04) - 7.7
    Tinsley (03-04) - 10.5

    AI (Career) - 6.6
    Reggie (Career) - 4.2




    Assists per TO;

    AI (03-04) - 1.5 (2.2 after the break - 9 games)
    Tinsley (03-04) - 2.8 (3.8 after the break - 24 games)

    AI (Career) - 1.6
    Miller (Career) - 1.7




    And just for kicks, FGA per Assist:

    AI (03-04) - 3.4
    Tinsley (03-04) - 1.2

    AI (Career) - 4.0
    Miller (Career) - 4.2
    I'd be happy with those numbers if Iverson was on my team. Lets see, so while scoring twice as much as Tinsley per 48 minutres (Tins = 15/48 AI = 29.5/48) Iverson averages less than 3 assists less than Tinsley. Meanwhile, Tinsley averages only 1.3 more assists per turnover per 48 than AI while specializing in creating those assists. But Tinsley isn't a superstar so its expected.

    Miller however is a superstar and one who never handled the ball a great deal yet his to/assist ratio is hardly any better than AI who is counted on to carry the ball for his team. I must say that I have never used FGA per assist but what it appears to be from the equation is the chance of the player hitting his shots versus passing the ball to a player who hits his shot. So in this case Reggie, the guy who made a living and a name as a sharp shooter is negligably more likely to lead to points when having the ball in his hands then AI who everyone says is a ball hog and shoots terribly.

    And the make-up of the teams each played for hasn't even been entered into the debate.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    Such Bull, Tinsley not only should have recieved consideration, but he should have been close to making the list.

  16. #16
    MZahm
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    AI's a great player. He's just not a point guard. He's a shooting guard playing the point, but since Kahn's been consistent rating players at the position they're playing rather than their natural position I think ranking AI as a PG is ok.

    And no one ever claimed Reggie was a great passer. He's good but not outstanding, whereas Iverson is an excellent passer FOR A SHOOTING GUARD.

    And I've used FG attempts rather than makes, so it's actually how often he puts up a shot rather than making a pass which leads to a score. I've never used the stat before either, but I think it's a good one if you're talking about scoring point guards vs passing point guards.

  17. #17
    RA231
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    Default Re: Kahn's PG rankings

    AI # 2? No. Thats the only one I stongly disagree with.

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