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Thread: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    I don't know.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    You swap Josh for Bosh and it helps Miami and hurts the Pacers because Bosh just overlaps Danny and Roy while Josh makes it easier for all the scoring to go through Wade and Josh.
    This is so BS If you really belive this is true there is something wrong. Bosh would be a major upgrade over Josh and would make us a better team. Josh wouldnt help Miami more than Bosh ethier just no way.

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  4. #103
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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I did not see the game because the cable was out but who specifically was being yelled at/ Do you know?
    Jeff literally stood right beside us all night. He called out Tyler for a missed switch at one point.

    Danny came off the floor losing his s*** at one point, though I don't know who his exact target was.

    Jeff was 100% disgusted with how the game went, almost surprisingly so.



    As I mentioned after the Orlando game where I sat by the bench, in that game Danny went full-on ballistic on Tyler twice. Barking him down for missed switches at a level that bordered on a one-way fight (Tyler wasn't really arguing back).

    I've heard them yell for Paul to make a switch too in other games, so it seems like they are the main 2 guys when it comes to complaining about their switches.


    I did not catch Dahntay yelling at anyone, though I think he joined Vogel on complaining about a couple of calls.


    Roy per normal expresses his positive energy in a way that to the outside might look hostile. After Danny made that one steal and went the other way to get the foul Roy was all over him barking away, but that was 100% a "that's what I'm talking about" rant I think.


    I did see plenty of disgusted glances among players, typically after guys covered other guys who were beat badly off the dribble.

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  6. #104
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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    This is so BS If you really belive this is true there is something wrong. Bosh would be a major upgrade over Josh and would make us a better team. Josh wouldnt help Miami more than Bosh ethier just no way.
    The problem you're missing is this - Bosh wouldn't end up being a Josh upgrade, he would end up being a ROY UPGRADE. Roy would be moved to Josh's role.

    You think they'd just keep feeding the low post or running PnR with Roy/Collison if Bosh came in? Nope.

    They'd use Roy as a defensive guy and work all the post(ish) offense through Bosh. Meanwhile Miami could return to focusing on just Wade/Lebron offense and let Josh just keep the ball moving and set shot screens for them.

    It's about diversity of skills.

    Bosh is a better player (specifically a better scorer) than Josh without a doubt, but you don't need 5 scorers who want 15 shots per game. That does not work. It never works. And it's not like Bosh is famous for how aggressive his defense is at the rim.


    You might as well say what's holding back the 92 Bulls isn't Jordan's slump but Cartwright's post offense.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    BTW, once again I heard a Pacer player getting on Tyler for missing his switch. This was not obvious to me since I don't know the scheme, but I trust a vet when he yells out "Tyler, that's you!"

    So maybe those upgrades aren't so obvious after all. And he didn't go toe-to-toe with Scola, only half his time came against him and he didn't salvage his FG night till the mid 2nd half when they were down 26. He still took 18 shots to get those 17 points...oh, and just what was he doing when matched with 4 of 5 Patrick Patterson? Did you think we weren't watching during that part?
    Scola was 1-4 for two points with Hansbrough in the lineup and a phenomenal 5-7 for 11 points with the notoriously soft McRoberts in there.

    You're right, though, that Hansbrough didn't do much against Scola (1-3), but then, Scola did jack diddly squat against Hansbrough, thus my "toe-to-toe" statement remains accurate.

    There were only three players with non-negative +/- scores: Hansbrough, Stephenson (both 0) and Price (+13).

    The Goons did their job for the most part. Between McBob being spanked like a misbehaved child by Scola and Brandon Rush being his usual worthless self, the starters did not.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Brandon Rush is next-to-last on the team in assists-per-36 (1.3) and assist percentage (5.7%), behind Tyler on both accounts. That's just atrocious for a shooting guard. Horrendous. I'll be so glad when this talentless, pot smoking bum is out of here and we have a legitimate starting shooting guard.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    I think Seth has written a whole series of well-reasoned posts. I just wish he would learn that the word is COMPLEMENTARY. Two Es. No I. Being complimentary (with an i) is saying nice things...'love your shoes.'

    Anyway. Carry on. Good points, Seth.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Larry believed in Shawne Williams.
    So did you (!) To the point where you trumpeted trading Danny Granger to make room for Shawne.

    Larry couldn't get the TJ or Dun contracts traded in a world where teams are begging to lose contract money.
    That is a fantasy world. More than once I read that this time around, the combination of teams who were already financially solid after the 2010 free agency sweepstakes along with the higher than usual quantity of expiring contracts significantly diminished the typical value of expiring contracts. I flatly reject the concept that Bird failed to steal candy from a baby.

    Furthermore, even in a tougher-than-usual climate to make such a trade, didn't Mark Spears or someone like him say we were close to a deal for Dun anyway before he broke his thumb?

    TJ is easy to figure out: Combine point A (the current climate for expirings) with the concept that nobody wants or needs TJ Ford to be their point guard. Sure, you could possibly make some bad-to-terrible trade (taking on a bad player and/or bad contract) just to say "See, I traded TJ's expiring!", but I'm glad they didn't.

    I'm not saying you can't swap Josh out if you are saying David West. What I'm saying is that if you get West then you must ALSO GIVE UP ON Roy. West becomes the low post scorer and you move Roy to get a role playing defender/rebounder.
    I don't agree with this at all. First of all, there appears to be this concept held by many NBA followers that you must only have one significant offensive threat in your front court, while the other one must be a Dale Davis/Ben Wallace/Josh McRoberts/Jeff Foster kind of guy. I think that's BS. Tell that to the Lakers when they traded for Pau Gasol. They didn't punt on Andrew Bynum. Whenever he was healthy, they started both of them, and it was a pain in the other NBA contenders' asses to have to deal with that much size and firepower up front.

    That's not to say it's an unstoppable force; clearly they also frequently used a smaller Odom/Gasol front court, but there's a reason they stuck with starting the bigger two together, and there's a reason they kept going to it at least part of the time: It can be used to great effect.

    I welcome David West to play WITH Roy Hibbert offensively. First of all, David West has a money jump shot, so he can provide space for Roy to work down low, and at the same time we know Roy can be utilized in the high post for when we want to try posting up with David West. You don't have to limit yourself that way by saying "Well, we got West, so Roy you know what you have to do: Stop trying to be an offensive player."

    Obviously there's some hyperbole there, but nonetheless.

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  12. #109

    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    I think it was the garbage minutes for Price that elevated his +/-

    For some reason our best PG has become the third string PG. Just what the hell is Frank and TPTB thinking? They need to be starting AJ now if they want to have a shot at the playoffs. I am all for Lance showing us what he can do, but not at the cost of a playoff berth...

    The same goes for DC and his entitlement issue with starting. Screw that.

    Lance should be the one getting the 3rd string minutes... actually no DC should get the 3rd string minutes, he needs to earn his spot back with good play. Let Lance back up AJ.

    At any rate AJ should be playing the most minutes at PG right now. That or bring TJ back, anything but the horrible crap we have been seeing with DC.
    Price was +3 in the first half too, when the rest of the team was -.

    Most of it was because of garbage minutes, (Vogel put up the white flag in the third, which is why Lance got the time) but he was a big part of the push in the second to get the game close (err..reasonable), which is how he ended up +3. It was just by the time the subs started going in, in the third, it was about a 30 point lead.

    AJ gets beat on defense at times, but everyone does. His defense isn't the problem. (In fact, once he figures out how to foul without the refs seeing it, he'll be really good.) Even when he gets scored on, the guy isn't open.

    I think starting him would be a good idea though, him and Dahntay might need to break up.
    Last edited by Sookie; 03-06-2011 at 01:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Sullinger View Post
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    Hansbrough went toe-to-toe with Luis Scola, dropping 17 & 10 in 25 minutes. Ineffective would be Brandon Rush doing next-to-nothing while getting lit up like a Christmas tree by Kevin Martin.
    11 & 8 of which came in the 4th quarter when Scola had long since sat for the night.

    And those 17 points came on 18 shots. Not exactly the picture of efficiency.
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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I don't agree with this at all. First of all, there appears to be this concept held by many NBA followers that you must only have one significant offensive threat in your front court, while the other one must be a Dale Davis/Ben Wallace/Josh McRoberts/Jeff Foster kind of guy. I think that's BS. Tell that to the Lakers when they traded for Pau Gasol. They didn't punt on Andrew Bynum. Whenever he was healthy, they started both of them, and it was a pain in the other NBA contenders' asses to have to deal with that much size and firepower up front.

    That's not to say it's an unstoppable force; clearly they also frequently used a smaller Odom/Gasol front court, but there's a reason they stuck with starting the bigger two together, and there's a reason they kept going to it at least part of the time: It can be used to great effect.

    I welcome David West to play WITH Roy Hibbert offensively. First of all, David West has a money jump shot, so he can provide space for Roy to work down low, and at the same time we know Roy can be utilized in the high post for when we want to try posting up with David West. You don't have to limit yourself that way by saying "Well, we got West, so Roy you know what you have to do: Stop trying to be an offensive player."

    Obviously there's some hyperbole there, but nonetheless.
    Thank you.. The "There has to be two garbage men," argument doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, Danny is begging for shots to be taken away from him (His FG% is bad and he needs to be more of a deadly off the ball shooter) because we need more talent at the wing there; particularly someone who has capabilities of having 40 point games and can create his own shot and sometimes create for others. Brandon Rush has been averaging about seven points per game and he has been completely invisible since he's been starting again.

    As for the power forward spot, a guy like Josh is fine, I guess, if he isn't giving up points due to his lack of boxing out and his lack of post defense. I would prefer a ZBo/West myself, but a garbage man like Josh/Varejao is fine as long as they actually are garbage men. Josh has been giving up a crap load of boards to the other team (Roy and Tyler too, so I will be fair there) as well as letting power forwards post him up three feet away from the basket. That's not work of a hard hat guy.

    We just need a lot more talent right now; It's simple. Danny is fine, I don't care what anyone says. If we get enough talent to where other teams can't afford to trap/double Danny as well as forcing him to drive by playing him tight (In other words, making the opposing SF invisible in the team defensive schemes) than we will be better off.

    PS: To get our offense to actually work, we need a point guard that can make easy buckets for us and that can adequately defend other point guards as well as create for himself at times when the shot clock is down. We were hoping that that person would be Collison but he doesn't have the court vision or the defense for it. Hopefully Lance can be that player in 2 years or so but we have a lot of time until then. We're probably going to need a stop gap there..

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  16. #112
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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The problem you're missing is this - Bosh wouldn't end up being a Josh upgrade, he would end up being a ROY UPGRADE. Roy would be moved to Josh's role.

    You think they'd just keep feeding the low post or running PnR with Roy/Collison if Bosh came in? Nope.

    They'd use Roy as a defensive guy and work all the post(ish) offense through Bosh. Meanwhile Miami could return to focusing on just Wade/Lebron offense and let Josh just keep the ball moving and set shot screens for them.

    It's about diversity of skills.

    Bosh is a better player (specifically a better scorer) than Josh without a doubt, but you don't need 5 scorers who want 15 shots per game. That does not work. It never works. And it's not like Bosh is famous for how aggressive his defense is at the rim.


    You might as well say what's holding back the 92 Bulls isn't Jordan's slump but Cartwright's post offense.
    Correct me if I am wrong....but based off of your posts here....my impression is that you are suggesting that getting an upgrade at the PF spot requires that he compliment Hibbert ( specifically doing stuff that Hibbert doesn't do that would allow Hibbert to command the low-post on the offensive and defensive end )....not mirror Hibbert's contributions.

    Although I can understand getting a Player like Bosh ( despite my guess is that he is becoming more JONeal like as he gets older ), I never got the impression that David West is the type of PF that lives "inside the paint". I recall West killing Teams with his mid-range game.

    But if West is not that guy that can compliment ( not mirror ) Hibbert on the offensive end...then who is?

    Is there a Player out there like that?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    Is there a Player out there like that?
    Josh Smith would be the prototype.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    You swap Josh for Bosh and it helps Miami and hurts the Pacers because Bosh just overlaps Danny and Roy while Josh makes it easier for all the scoring to go through Wade and Josh.
    Damn you are overrating Josh big time, this has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have seen on PD in a long time.



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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I don't think Jeff Foster particularly helps the defense.... and his offense is questionable at best...
    I don't know why I need to keep coming to Jeff's defense on his defense and worth. Did you see the box score from the game? He had 10 rebounds in 12 minutes of play. If you read the box, you'll notice that this total is the same as what the leading rebounder, Tyler, got by playing twice as long and in garbage time. The rest of the team including Roy played twice as long and did not come close.

    The guy does what he does. On offense, he rarely shoots, he scores about 45-50% of the time when he does.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Josh Smith would be the prototype.
    Defensively, maybe, but I'm not a believer in his offensive game. Not saying he can't or doesn't put up points, but I would not feel comfortable depending on his offensive production.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Is there a Player out there like that?
    Yes, Varejao, Scola, Ubaka, Okafor, Horford.

  24. #118

    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    This thread is a depressing read

    I will try to make the case that there is one huge glaring issue with this team. It returns every game. It is an ongoing stat in every game, regardless of how well any one player plays.

    Look at the game stats: Pacer | Houston boxscore

    Review the guard statistics. They tell the same collective story EVERY GAME.

    WE DO NOT HAVE AN EFFECTIVE PG. You know, the one that has more assists than everyone else. The one that sets up the offense. The one that ensures the bigs get the ball in the place on the floor that makes them most effective. The one that doesn't turn it over.

    To repeat. I do not know why we traded for DC. For a PG, he is a good under-sized SG. He was that way in college.

    Without a true PG, any team is going to look way worse than it is. With a true PG, the offense flows. He will improve chemistry.

    And chemistry is huge in team sports. I am still scratching my head why Vogel is not preserving his two lines more. The Goon squad was special. Especially with a player like Grainger, who affects the whole offense on the court, you can not just sub players in and out on the floor.

    One idea is that Grainger should play the PG position on the starting line. He is controlling the game from the SF position anyway. One could even make the argument that it is difficult for any PG to play the position in the starting line-up because Grainger is already playing it! Either he is doing so because he is over-compensating for the lack of floor general at PG, or that is the way he prefers to play. Either way, it does not matter right now. I would tell the team Grainger is playing PG for the next 10 games. He is miles ahead of our PGs at the position anyway.

    On a related note, 4 games ago, it was Vogel's starters that were struggling. Robbing one line for the other will only make the whole team worse. He needs to either make it a permanent thing, or stop doing it, so that players know where they are and develop a rapport.

    Chemistry is not a factor in winning. It is the factor in winning. IF you want further evidence, ask yourself why Miami will not win the trophy this year.

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  26. #119
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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Defensively, maybe, but I'm not a believer in his offensive game. Not saying he can't or doesn't put up points, but I would not feel comfortable depending on his offensive production.
    Just curious, what kind of offensive game/production would you feel comfortable with?

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Great post Whiskeyjim.

    With one caveat. Granger at point guard is not a good idea at all. He is a terrible ball handler, and not a good passer. I don't see any way that would help us.

    If you are going to play a forward out of position at point guard, McRoberts is the better choice.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Collison's numbers are pretty much the same as they were last year in New Orleans. The downside is he's a starter this year, and was mostly a backup last year except for a stretch when Chris Paul was hurt.

    Everyone was hoping that Collison would play more like he did as a starter for New Orleans then how he did as a backup. Hasn't been the case, but he is only in his 2nd year.

    Also take into account the Hornets had good veteran leadership on there team, better finishers and better defenders.

    He's growing with this team and I expect him to get better as he matures and as the talent mature or gets better around him

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Just curious, what kind of offensive game/production would you feel comfortable with?
    I prefer guys who can create for themselves. In the case of a big man, that would likely be a reliable, advanced post scoring game. Scoring off of drop steps, spins, step-throughs, turnaround jumpers, hooks, fade-sways, up-and-unders, faceup, etc. Ideally, your big can do those things while also being able to pass out of at least some of those moves, and is hopefully able to knock down a jumpshot from 15 or so feet.

    But the main thing is the rich post game.

    I realize that's an idealistic description I just gave and that there is nobody available that we could add to this team that has that game, but what I am saying is that the closer they are to being that kind of a player, the better.

    It's not that I'm anti-Jeff Foster or Josh McRoberts kinds of bigs; I just prefer more of a post scorer kind of guy. Probably why I can like and appreciate someone like Hansbrough even with his big warts.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    You don't need any garbage men in your starting line up. Thats a bunch of bull. You need players who can be effective regardless of how many shots they take. Does Boston have any garbage men? No. Rondo, KG, Pierce and Allen can get theirs whenever. And pre trade Perkins wasn't a huge offensive threat, but he could score in the post. Now its up to Big Baby and Shaq and they both are threats in the post.

    This needing 15 fga's a game is bs. No one needs 15 fga's a game. Right now I don't want Roy taking 15 fga's a game. The only player on this roster I'm comfortable with taking that many shots is Danny. Sure some of the other guys will have nights where they are doing well and should take 15 shots, but on a regular basis, we don't have one. Especially since we use mass substitutions. Shots need to come within the offense, regardless of who is playing where. I want good shots taken, not shots taken to meet a player quota.

    If you don't think Chris Bosh or David West would help this team more than Josh McRoberts, who I like, but is not a starter in this league, you're crazy. Those are legit all star guys (maybe not this year, but certainly in previous seasons). This team isn't in any position to say we don't need more starting talent. Thats ridiculous. Roy to me is going to be a 16 and 8 type of guy. He needs someone like a West that can score in the post and has a nice midrange game. Until then Roy will not be efficient. Not with this roster.

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Great post Whiskeyjim.

    With one caveat. Granger at point guard is not a good idea at all. He is a terrible ball handler, and not a good passer. I don't see any way that would help us.

    If you are going to play a forward out of position at point guard, McRoberts is the better choice.


    So he can not only make Miami a better team(according to Seth) but he can also be a point guard? Damn

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    Default Re: Post game 3/5/11 vs Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Josh Smith would be the prototype.
    Okay...let me clarify that......what PF is REALISTICALLY AVAILABLE that fits that profile of a PF that compliments Hibbert that we can acquire during the offseason?

    Josh Smith is untouchable....and even if he was the realistic cost of acquiring him would cost us a MINIMUM of PG.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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