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Thread: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

  1. #1

    Default Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    As many of us know we will have a substantial amount of money to spend in this off season. The question I pose to you is what would you consider a successful off season for the Pacers.

    Do we stand pat and make no major signing ie just sign backups to replace our FA's?

    Do we sign a starting sg? Who?

    Do we sign a starting pf? Who?

    Do we upgrade Collison?


    My ideal scenario goes something like this:

    1. Upgrading our starting PF position. We have talked about this ad nauseam but I would like to offer some details that I think would be a plausible sign and trade. Its no secret that David West plans on opting out of his contract after this year so I would suggest to Bird that we do a sign and trade with the Hornets for West. The contract would be 4-5 years for 12 million per.

    If I am David West agent I would have to ask myself if I really want my client to dabble in a post CBA FA market with new rules and probably lower salaries. If the Hornets need a sweetner then I would offer up a second round pick or swap first round picks or do both. This way we still have a pick in order to land Mayo if Bird wants to revisit that deal.

    The main reason to do this deal is to avoid a bidding war with other teams. Would it work I have no clue but I think its atleast a reasonable scenario for Bird to look into. The worst thing I can forsee happening is that we make a run for a player and we don't get him.

    2. Sign a Veteran shooting guard.

    Yes I am a PG fan and I believe he is the sg of the future but I don't know when he can actually give us consistent play. Until then I would like to sign a veteran sg like Jason Richardson. Offer up 3 years 8 million per and see what he says. If the answer is no then I think hard about standing pat with PG and Rush.

    3. Here is my out in left field scenario. "IF" Lance is a good boy this offseason then I sign him to 4 year extension with a the 4th year being a team option. This contract would be a low ball offer at around 2 million per year and the point would be to retain a player with tremendous upside for cheap. IMO the contract would have to low enough that we could cut ties with him if he had a serious incident off the court. I am not even sure if we can sign him to an extension but I would look to do it as soon as possible if we plan on giving him more minutes in the future. FYI his contact is up after next year.

    I know many posters will disagree with my suggestions but if we accomplished something like this in the off season then I would be thrilled as a Pacers fan.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 03-03-2011 at 06:46 PM.

  2. #2
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    I think Lance is already signed for next year anyway.

    I agree with the West Deal. 10-12 million is a good figure.

    I do think our biggest need right now is a shooting guard. We just don't get any consistent production from any of our 2's

  3. #3
    soul brother #1 BKK's Avatar
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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    IIRC Lance signed a 3 or 4 year deal last summer

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    First thing we should do, if you ask me, re-sign either Foster OR Mc for about 3m-4m for a few years. It won't hurt us that much and we need one of them off the bench. personally I prefer Foster.

    Next, before the draft, we should check our options.
    What we have to offer is mostly Posey, D.Jones, Brandon rush. I may be OK with trading collison, but only if we get a huge upgrade in return, and I'd rather not trade Granger/Hibbert.
    Trades that aren't available now may be available later; for example, The reason the 76ers don't trade Iggy is because of their playoff run. If they get swept in first round, maybe they'll decide to trade him after all. Josh smith could be tradeable as well if Atlanta gets swept also, but they'll probably be looking for a decent center to take his place.
    This goes both ways though, and some trades that were available before won't be now. (Gerald wallace is in portland, and I'm not sure we could get Mayo because these guys seemed to like Mc rather than the draft pick)

    Next is the draft, assuming we didn't trade anything, we'd have 1-2 extra players. if we assume we gave both contracts, it'll probably be around 3m together. So we have 13 players and about 20m to spend for 2 players. Our 1/3/5 spots are covered so we should of course look for a 2 and a 4.

    Free Agent SG options:
    Jamal Crawford
    Jason Richardson
    Tracy Mcgrady (uhh... might as well keep rush..)

    Free Agent PF options:
    David West
    Zach Randolph
    Carl Landry

  6. #5

    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by BKK View Post
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    IIRC Lance signed a 3 or 4 year deal last summer
    I should had looked at Shamsports. After 2012 then we should sign him to a bigger contract for more years. I really want to lock him up as a Pacers for a long time on a cheap contract.

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    First thing we should do, if you ask me, re-sign either Foster OR Mc for about 3m-4m for a few years. It won't hurt us that much and we need one of them off the bench. personally I prefer Foster.

    Next, before the draft, we should check our options.
    What we have to offer is mostly Posey, D.Jones, Brandon rush. I may be OK with trading collison, but only if we get a huge upgrade in return, and I'd rather not trade Granger/Hibbert.
    Trades that aren't available now may be available later; for example, The reason the 76ers don't trade Iggy is because of their playoff run. If they get swept in first round, maybe they'll decide to trade him after all. Josh smith could be tradeable as well if Atlanta gets swept also, but they'll probably be looking for a decent center to take his place.
    This goes both ways though, and some trades that were available before won't be now. (Gerald wallace is in portland, and I'm not sure we could get Mayo because these guys seemed to like Mc rather than the draft pick)

    Next is the draft, assuming we didn't trade anything, we'd have 1-2 extra players. if we assume we gave both contracts, it'll probably be around 3m together. So we have 13 players and about 20m to spend for 2 players. Our 1/3/5 spots are covered so we should of course look for a 2 and a 4.

    Free Agent SG options:
    Jamal Crawford
    Jason Richardson
    Tracy Mcgrady (uhh... might as well keep rush..)

    Free Agent PF options:
    David West
    Zach Randolph
    Carl Landry
    I'd love to sign McGrady, but I don't think we'll need him and I'm sure he wouldn't want to come here.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    you must be high if you think J rich is gonna sign for 2m a year.

    NO would rather trade David West for something of value not a 2nd rd pick


    Please lets be a little more realestic here.

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I should had looked at Shamsports. After 2012 then we should sign him to a bigger contract for more years. I really want to lock him up as a Pacers for a long time on a cheap contract.
    Thats not realistic if he plays well he isnt gonna sign to a "long term cheap contract"

  10. #9

    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    I think he meant use the 2nd round pick as sweetener not as the main trade chip on our side. As in, if they don't like our initial offer (whatever it may be) then add a 2nd round pick or offer to switch 1st rounders.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Its no secret that David West plans on opting out of his contract after this year so I would suggest to Bird that we do a sign and trade with the Hornets for West. The contract would be 4-5 years for 12 million per.

    If I am David West agent I would have to ask myself if I really want my client to dabble in a post CBA FA market with new rules and probably lower salaries. If the Hornets need a sweetner then I would offer up a second round pick or swap first round picks. This way we still have a pick in order to land Mayo if Bird wants to revisit that deal.

    The main reason to do this deal is to avoid a bidding war with other teams. Would it work I have no clue but I think its atleast a reasonable scenario for Bird to look into. The worst thing I can forsee happening is that we make a run for a player and we don't get him.
    Uh... I think you've got some of your facts mixed up. Yes, David West will probably opt out, and after that he'll be an unrestricted free agent. This will be post new CBA though - there's no more time to sign a new deal under the old CBA.

    There's no need for us to do a sign and trade with NOH, since we can sign him outright with cap space. NOH won't really have any additional rights on West, other than the right to overpay him (Bird rights). Nothing we can do would prevent a bidding war should other teams be interested. Thankfully OKC seems to be out of the running now.

    IMO, David West re-signing with NOH still seems the most likely outcome to me, though I think they will have to overpay. Whatever happens though, I hope we use our cap space to upgrade our frontcourt, whether through signings or trades. I like our current guys, but we need both more quality and more depth.

    In contrast, I'm pretty happy with the wing rotation. Upgrades would be nice, but shouldn't be the priority I think.

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    There's no need for us to do a sign and trade with NOH, since we can sign him outright with cap space. NOH won't really have any additional rights on West, other than the right to overpay him (Bird rights).
    And that is why you might do a s&t rather than a free agent offer, if we had a combination of salaries remaining that were worth it to NO. An S&T nets the player more money, and is one of the best ways to get him to a place he might not normally go.

    Question for capologists - if we were way under the cap we could absorb salary above what we send out even in an S&T scenario, right?
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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    And that is why you might do a s&t rather than a free agent offer, if we had a combination of salaries remaining that were worth it to NO. An S&T nets the player more money, and is one of the best ways to get him to a place he might not normally go.

    Question for capologists - if we were way under the cap we could absorb salary above what we send out even in an S&T scenario, right?
    Trade expection and picks and possibly Tyler if NO was intersted.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Question for capologists - if we were way under the cap we could absorb salary above what we send out even in an S&T scenario, right?
    Well yes, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    And that is why you might do a s&t rather than a free agent offer, if we had a combination of salaries remaining that were worth it to NO. An S&T nets the player more money, and is one of the best ways to get him to a place he might not normally go.
    ... do you really want to overpay 31 year old David West? I'd hope that our cap space would be enough, unless we're trying to squeeze in a few more free agents.

    We don't have many options for salary to send back anyway, just Posey or TPE as p4e says.

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    ... do you really want to overpay 31 year old David West? I'd hope that our cap space would be enough, unless we're trying to squeeze in a few more free agents.

    We don't have many options for salary to send back anyway, just Posey or TPE as p4e says.
    Depends on how bad we want him. I have no real opinion, but if we want to get him as opposed to another East team, we might need to be willing to pony up the Bird max.

    And again, the advantage of being under the cap would be that we'd only have to send back (say) Posey or the TPE. Since we are under the cap the salaries don't have to match.
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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Depends on how bad we want him. I have no real opinion, but if we want to get him as opposed to another East team, we might need to be willing to pony up the Bird max.

    And again, the advantage of being under the cap would be that we'd only have to send back (say) Posey or the TPE. Since we are under the cap the salaries don't have to match.
    They wouldnt want Posey so it would likely be a TPE and 1st. I would love to ship off Posey but NO wouldnt want him.

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    We are said to have alot of cap space next year but that space comes from players not being resigned by the Pacers.

    So, in order to get this space...WHO of the current crop do we NOT resign?

    Thankfully JT drops off IIRC
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    I don't think we're going to sign a FA just to sign one... We see how that worked out for Detroit. TPTB have their targets and if all else fails in FA, there's potential trades or waiting for the next trade deadline or summer '12.

    Let's just hope there's NBA next year.

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    you must be high if you think J rich is gonna sign for 2m a year.

    NO would rather trade David West for something of value not a 2nd rd pick


    Please lets be a little more realestic here.
    Sorry orginally I wrote J Rich for 8 million per year. I forgot to add that in when I edited it. Thanks for pointing that out. This isn't what I would want to sign him for but its what I think it would take to get him to play for the Pacers.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 03-01-2011 at 02:36 PM.

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  23. #19

    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    IMO, David West re-signing with NOH still seems the most likely outcome to me, though I think they will have to overpay. Whatever happens though, I hope we use our cap space to upgrade our frontcourt, whether through signings or trades. I like our current guys, but we need both more quality and more depth.

    In contrast, I'm pretty happy with the wing rotation. Upgrades would be nice, but shouldn't be the priority I think.
    How much does it factor in that the league owns the team. Without West they are still are going to have a team salary around 45 million depending on what happens with their qualifing offers which doesn't include filling out the roster and rookie salaries.

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    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Shooting guard options that I'd like in order:

    1.) OJ Mayo- Young, very cheap, and low risk
    2.) Jamal Crawford- He's better than Mayo, but he comes at a higher price and he's older. He's just what we're looking for though.
    3.) Jason Richardson- He'd be good for us, but it looks like he's going to decline starting next year.

    Of course you have to go after Iggy, Wallace, etc.. If they become available. At this point I'd even take a flyer on Kevin Martin. He defense is bad, but eff it our shooting guard offense is a damn joke.

    Power Forward:

    1.) David West- This is just a perfect fit.
    2.) Carl Landry- He's not a huge pickup, but he's still better that what we currently have.

    Then if somehow Josh Smith, Luis Scola, etc. become available of course you go after them.

    I think that by the end of the year we'll need some more stability at point guard too, but Raymond Felton is the only player that I would like that might be available. Devin Harris is not big enough of an upgrade to take on his salary, and Aaron Brooks is bad.

    I'd be ecstatic if we shot for the stars in a couple of years and did a DC/Granger/First rounder/Prospect trade for one of the best point guards in the league, but that's dreaming as of right now. Point guard/George/Hibbert/Mayo/Power forward/Maybe Lance/Best bench in the league..

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Hopefully there are plenty of options to improve the team through trade. The new CBA might get a few teams wanting to trade players just to get under the cap. With the Pacers already being under they can just absorb them and not have to match talent going the other way. For example, Atl could possibly trade Josh Smith just to get under the cap, due to Joe Johnson's huge deal. Hopefully there are plenty of options like that, as I see it being a better way to add to the team than free agency this offseason.

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Just a couple of points. Stephenson is currently under contract through 2013/2014, with the last 2 years not being guaranteed.

    The Pacers will have 10 current players remaining under contract at the conclusion of this season with a combined salary of $36.34M. If the salary cap (or hard cap if adopted) under the new CBA would be equal to the present salary cap of $58M and assuming that roster sizes remain at 15, that means that the Pacers will need to sign free agents and/or draft choices for just under $22M.

    Let's look at an example to see just how far.... or not so far, $22M will go.
    FA#1 $10M
    FA#2 $8M
    McRoberts or Foster $4M
    1st round pick...... woops, we've already used up the $22M and we only have 13 players under contract.

    Like I've said.... we have a lot of possibilities, but it's going to take a little caution and also a little luck. It would also be helpful if one of our more expensive needs were somehow attained through a trade. That way, some of the cap space would be preserved for other signings.

    On the surface, it might be nice to rid ourselves of Posey, but I have a hunch that his $7.6M salary coming off the books after next season will be very necessary in re-signing Hibbert, Price and possibly Rush (if he's still around).

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    I think anybody who thinks it's going to be a "debacle" if the Pacers do not get any of the big-name free agents, this summer, are going to end up pretty upset.

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  29. #24

    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer View Post
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    We are said to have alot of cap space next year but that space comes from players not being resigned by the Pacers.

    So, in order to get this space...WHO of the current crop do we NOT resign?

    Thankfully JT drops off IIRC
    danny granger ---- 3yr/$39M
    james posey ------ 1yr/$7.6M
    dahntay jones ---- 2yr/$5.6M
    paul george------- 3yr/$7.5M
    brandon rush ----- 1yr/$3M
    tyler hansbrough - 2yr/$5.7M
    roy hibbert ------- 1yr/$2.6M
    darren collison ---- 2yr/$3.8M
    AJ price ---------- 1yr/$0.9M
    lance stephenson - 3yr/$2.7M

    these are the guys signed next year and salaries. 3 PG's, 5 wings and 2 bigs. or 4 wings and 3 bigs depending on how you count james posey.

    jeff foster, josh mcroberts, solo jones, TJ ford and mike dunleavy drop off the salary cap. along with jamaal tinsley, magnum rolle and lance allred.

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    Default Re: Avoiding an Off Season Debacle

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    The Pacers will have 10 current players remaining under contract at the conclusion of this season with a combined salary of $36.34M. If the salary cap (or hard cap if adopted) under the new CBA would be equal to the present salary cap of $58M and assuming that roster sizes remain at 15, that means that the Pacers will need to sign free agents and/or draft choices for just under $22M.

    Let's look at an example to see just how far.... or not so far, $22M will go.
    FA#1 $10M
    FA#2 $8M
    McRoberts or Foster $4M
    1st round pick...... woops, we've already used up the $22M and we only have 13 players under contract.
    Well considering how many current NBA teams operate at well above 58 million I think you are presenting an extreme that won't happen under a new CBA. I will bet my house that we will have more than 22 million to spend next season.

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