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Thread: Improving Our Wings

  1. #1

    Smile Improving Our Wings

    The offensive stats of the wings we are discussing trying to acquire are not much, if any, better than those of the wings we already have.

    Per 36 minutes scoring:

    D. Granger 20.9
    D. Jones 19.2
    P. George 15.3
    M. Dunleavy 15.1 (out for two months)
    B. Rush 13.2

    J. Crawford 17.6
    W. Chandler 17.3
    O. J. Mayo 15.5


    FG%

    D. Jones .511
    P. George .451
    M. Dunleavy .441
    B. Rush .438
    D. Granger .435

    W. Chandler .463
    J. Crawford .423
    O. J. Mayo .409

    3P%

    B. Rush .420
    D. Granger .386
    M. Dunleavy .362
    D. Jones .357
    P. George .286 (Just think what his overall shooting percentage would be if he were hitting threes at Granger's percentage!)

    W. Chandler .364
    J. Crawford .351
    O. J. Mayo .342

    We can expect Paul George to improve his numbers dramatically as soon as he finds the NBA 3 pt range.

    As many have noted and as the stats bear out, the problem is getting more quality shots for Brandon Rush. If he were taking five to seven more good quality shots per game, half of them threes, and getting a few more free throw attempts in consequence, his scoring would be in the Granger range or higher.

    Leaving Dunleavy out of the picture, with imaginable improvements from George and Rush, we would have four wings with potent offense and, with maturing from George and a little more consistent effort from Granger, fairly formidable defense.

    So, are Collison and Price up to the task of helping Rush find more shots? Can Rush learn to put himself in position to get them?

    Stats-wise, O.J. Mayo, W. Chandler, and J. Crawford, for example, do not stand out relative to the wings we have.

    In fact, if we can boost P. George's and B. Rush's stats a bit, I would say that those other guys we are considering acquiring would have to compete hard to make the rotation.

    It's worth a concentrated effort.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by johndozark View Post
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    The offensive stats of the wings we are discussing trying to acquire are not much, if any, better than those of the wings we already have.

    Per 36 minutes scoring:

    D. Granger 20.9
    D. Jones 19.2
    P. George 15.3
    M. Dunleavy 15.1 (out for two months)
    B. Rush 13.2

    J. Crawford 17.6
    W. Chandler 17.3
    O. J. Mayo 15.5


    FG%

    D. Jones .511
    P. George .451
    M. Dunleavy .441
    B. Rush .438
    D. Granger .435

    W. Chandler .463
    J. Crawford .423
    O. J. Mayo .409

    3P%

    B. Rush .420
    D. Granger .386
    M. Dunleavy .362
    D. Jones .357
    P. George .286 (Just think what his overall shooting percentage would be if he were hitting threes at Granger's percentage!)

    W. Chandler .364
    J. Crawford .351
    O. J. Mayo .342

    We can expect Paul George to improve his numbers dramatically as soon as he finds the NBA 3 pt range.

    As many have noted and as the stats bear out, the problem is getting more quality shots for Brandon Rush. If he were taking five to seven more good quality shots per game, half of them threes, and getting a few more free throw attempts in consequence, his scoring would be in the Granger range or higher.

    Leaving Dunleavy out of the picture, with imaginable improvements from George and Rush, we would have four wings with potent offense and, with maturing from George and a little more consistent effort from Granger, fairly formidable defense.

    So, are Collison and Price up to the task of helping Rush find more shots? Can Rush learn to put himself in position to get them?

    Stats-wise, O.J. Mayo, W. Chandler, and J. Crawford, for example, do not stand out relative to the wings we have.

    In fact, if we can boost P. George's and B. Rush's stats a bit, I would say that those other guys we are considering acquiring would have to compete hard to make the rotation.

    It's worth a concentrated effort.

    I think you are on to something there. We do need some wing help but from where? Mayo could have benefited from a change of scenery, I don't know. He is young and may have his off-court issues behind him.

    I like the increase in production Paul George could have with increased minutes. He is the answer to our wing issue. The question is, will he be the answer "next" year or the year after that?

  3. #3
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    You're leaving out that OJ Mayo, Wilson Chandler and Jamal Crawford are on good teams and they can create their own shots and Brandon Rush, Mike Dunleavy,and Dahntay Jones are on bad teams that can't create their own shots*.

    *Dahntay sometimes can create his own shot.

    We need a closer. If Jamal Crawford, OJ Mayo, or Wilson Chandler came here, their numbers would greatly increase because they'd play 35-36 minutes a night and they'd be our number one option. We want to give one of these guys the green light.

    These guys are huge improvements over Rush and Mike.

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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    I link mango habinero sauce on my wings. I think it provides the kick we need.
    "Larry Bird: You are Officially On the Clock! (3/24/08)"
    (Watching You Like A Hawk!)

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  7. #5
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    You're also leaving out the fact that mayo and Chandler still have room to grow.

  8. #6

    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    You're leaving out that OJ Mayo, Wilson Chandler and Jamal Crawford are on good teams and they can create their own shots and Brandon Rush, Mike Dunleavy,and Dahntay Jones are on bad teams that can't create their own shots*.

    *Dahntay sometimes can create his own shot.

    We need a closer. If Jamal Crawford, OJ Mayo, or Wilson Chandler came here, their numbers would greatly increase because they'd play 35-36 minutes a night and they'd be our number one option. We want to give one of these guys the green light.

    These guys are huge improvements over Rush and Mike.
    I dont know that I would want to build a team that relied on Mayo being the number 1 option. He has never showed that he is up to the challenge. Chandler and Crawford would be upgrades but I dont think they would be our number 1 option ahead of Granger. They are both solid 2 guys like DG is (imho).

    I do agree that we need a strong first option - you called it a "closer". I just dont think any of the names mentioned are good enough to be that even if they were upgrades over Rush and Mike - thats not saying a lot!

  9. #7
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    What do Mike and Rush do that OJ, Chandler, and Crawford can't?

  10. #8

    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    I understand that we need to see Rush perform with higher offensive productivity if he is to remain as a major factor for the Pacers.

    However, I also see that he was in an offensive system that did not work for him under the previous coach, and he has not had the playing and practice time to become thoroughly incorporated in the Vogel approach.

    Pretty much, it is now or never for him in Indpls.

    I remember Collison's confidence on his arrival that he could help Rush find his shots. Has that been given a thorough try and found wanting? Or has it been thought wanting and not thoroughly tried? Alternatively, has it just not had its turn yet? I don't know.

    Thirteen games into the Vogel era, with very limited practice times, we can only expect to have instituted a limited amount of new stuff, but, providing Rush is staying away from marijuana, I would like to see some Rush experiments get high priority for a reasonable test period.

    I do understand the desire for a shot creator for select occasions, provided that the shot creator knows how to be selective about when those occasions have arrived. I wonder if Paul George has that potential to be developed over time.

  11. #9
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    Smile Re: Improving Our Wings

    Bare with this, I will get to the point.
    First off, to be able to choose wing players, one has to know how the team will be coached. Either bring players in that fit the system or fit the system to the players.

    For example, coach O' tried to spread the floor to take pressure off center and pf position cause the paint is our weak area. So, the wings shot alot of 3's and allowed Collison to slash to the basket with the floor spread, yet this was hard for Danny cause he isn't fast enought to cover the real estate (very seldom drove).

    Coach Vogel is not spreading the floor as much therefore less 3's are attempted. However, this is actually causing problems right at the moment for Collison, because the spread has collapse quite abit, he is driving into smaller lanes and running out of real estate. This is creating bad shots and turnovers. Danny on the other hand can gain from this sometimes because he is much stronger and taller and is inside the 3 pt. line when receiving the ball and this also fits D.Jones's strong points of his body strength, height and mid range JUMP shot. Now, If you notice the paint area is alittle more clustered when the ball is fed. This is also causing problems for the C and PF position, like getting dominated in the paint by Utah, with the exception of Josh squeezing the baseline for acouple Slams, Boom Baby!

    My Point of all this is what i've seen posted for player FG% makes little difference in the manner posted. Dunleavey shoots long 2's and 3's where Chandler is not a good shooter at mid to long 2's and a terrible 3pt shooter. Mayo FG% is not created by the same type of shots of Dunleavey or Granger. Believe it or not Dunleavey is one of the better pure long range shooters in the league. He has had 40/40 seasons which most good shooters may never achieve. It's all about shot selection.

    For us to really know what type of player could help us out in the wing position, we need to know how our coach is going to coach. If he keeps this scheme then adding a Mayo or (JR Smith my choice) would be perfect at SG. Chandler is actually a SF and Granger is much much better. With this said, Pacers really need to address the PF and C position with this coaching scheme. Pacers got to get bigger, stronger PF and C.

    If, they want to go back to spreading the floor like coach O' then my suggestion is do what it take to get Eric Gordon SG and Channing Frye SC and Troy Murphy PF that can shoot 3's. Keep Granger, Josh and Dunleavey and have one the very best perimeter shooting team in the league, But our defense will suffer and will be spotty on offense at times.

    One more thing, Coach Vogel ( just my opinion) is running like the Pacers of old with the Davis Boys, this is a good thing. I don't like the spread offense.

    Take us to Victory
    Tyson Chandler (fa)/ Roy Hibbert / Jeff Foster
    Paul Millsap (trade)/ Tyler Hansbrough / Josh McRoberts PF,SF
    Danny Granger / Paul George
    JR Smith (fa)/ Dahntay Jones
    Darren Collison / AJ Price / Lance Stevenson PG, SG

    Trade: Brandon Rush, Posey, 2011 for Millsap

  12. #10
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Well for one thing, the 3 guys the op mention in comparison to our wings is that those 3 guys are all on winning teams. Huge upgrade in my opinion.

  13. #11
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    But you don't put Crawford on a muscle team and you dont' put Chandler on a shooting perimeter team. The players listed are so different and you can't look at FG% with Chandler vs Dunleavey cause Chandler couldn't ever think to do what Dunleavey does. ya know.

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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Bare with this, I will get to the point.
    First off, to be able to choose wing players, one has to know how the team will be coached. Either bring players in that fit the system or fit the system to the players.

    For example, coach O' tried to spread the floor to take pressure off center and pf position cause the paint is our weak area. So, the wings shot alot of 3's and allowed Collison to slash to the basket with the floor spread, yet this was hard for Danny cause he isn't fast enought to cover the real estate (very seldom drove).

    Coach Vogel is not spreading the floor as much therefore less 3's are attempted. However, this is actually causing problems right at the moment for Collison, because the spread has collapse quite abit, he is driving into smaller lanes and running out of real estate. This is creating bad shots and turnovers. Danny on the other hand can gain from this sometimes because he is much stronger and taller and is inside the 3 pt. line when receiving the ball and this also fits D.Jones's strong points of his body strength, height and mid range JUMP shot. Now, If you notice the paint area is alittle more clustered when the ball is fed. This is also causing problems for the C and PF position, like getting dominated in the paint by Utah, with the exception of Josh squeezing the baseline for acouple Slams, Boom Baby!

    My Point of all this is what i've seen posted for player FG% makes little difference in the manner posted. Dunleavey shoots long 2's and 3's where Chandler is not a good shooter at mid to long 2's and a terrible 3pt shooter. Mayo FG% is not created by the same type of shots of Dunleavey or Granger. Believe it or not Dunleavey is one of the better pure long range shooters in the league. He has had 40/40 seasons which most good shooters may never achieve. It's all about shot selection.

    For us to really know what type of player could help us out in the wing position, we need to know how our coach is going to coach. If he keeps this scheme then adding a Mayo or (JR Smith my choice) would be perfect at SG. Chandler is actually a SF and Granger is much much better. With this said, Pacers really need to address the PF and C position with this coaching scheme. Pacers got to get bigger, stronger PF and C.

    If, they want to go back to spreading the floor like coach O' then my suggestion is do what it take to get Eric Gordon SG and Channing Frye SC and Troy Murphy PF that can shoot 3's. Keep Granger, Josh and Dunleavey and have one the very best perimeter shooting team in the league, But our defense will suffer and will be spotty on offense at times.

    One more thing, Coach Vogel ( just my opinion) is running like the Pacers of old with the Davis Boys, this is a good thing. I don't like the spread offense.

    Take us to Victory
    Tyson Chandler (fa)/ Roy Hibbert / Jeff Foster
    Paul Millsap (trade)/ Tyler Hansbrough / Josh McRoberts PF,SF
    Danny Granger / Paul George
    JR Smith (fa)/ Dahntay Jones
    Darren Collison / AJ Price / Lance Stevenson PG, SG

    Trade: Brandon Rush, Posey, 2011 for Millsap
    Utah GM at Larry Bird and hangs up.


    Chandler is gonna get paid by Cuban.
    JR Smith really? Smash mouth lol

    Paul George will start next year. Unless we get a major upgrade. In this scenerio JR would come off the bench.

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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    You're leaving out that OJ Mayo, Wilson Chandler and Jamal Crawford are on good teams and they can create their own shots and Brandon Rush, Mike Dunleavy,and Dahntay Jones are on bad teams that can't create their own shots*.

    *Dahntay sometimes can create his own shot.

    We need a closer. If Jamal Crawford, OJ Mayo, or Wilson Chandler came here, their numbers would greatly increase because they'd play 35-36 minutes a night and they'd be our number one option. We want to give one of these guys the green light.

    These guys are huge improvements over Rush and Mike.
    Chandler creates his own shot about as good as Granger which = fail

  16. #14
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    ..Which is still better that Dun/Rush.

  17. #15
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    Smile Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Utah GM at Larry Bird and hangs up.


    Chandler is gonna get paid by Cuban.
    JR Smith really? Smash mouth lol

    Paul George will start next year. Unless we get a major upgrade. In this scenerio JR would come off the bench.
    Chandler can be had for the right price possibly. Have to try anyways!

    JR Smith is a really good SG. Can shoot from anywhere. create his own shot. Can take it to the hole and brings toughness, which we don't have in that position. He don't bring baggage like Mayo. And who's a bigger smash mouth then Reggie Miller.

    Rush, Expiring contract of Posey and 2011 1st rnd pick is perfect for Millsap, Utah needs a SG and Posey can bring outside shooting in Sf position which they lack. I think that is a really good offer.

    Also, sorry to bust your bubble but George is not a SG and the only way he'll start is if Granger is traded or there is injury.
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 02-28-2011 at 08:17 AM. Reason: added a line and typo

  18. #16
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Chandler can be had for the right price possibly. Have to try anyways!

    JR Smith is a really good SG. Can shoot from anywhere. create his own shot. Can take it to the hole and brings toughness, which we don't have in that position. He don't bring baggage like Mayo. And who's a bigger smash mouth then Reggie Miller.

    Rush, Expiring contract of Posey and 2011 1st rnd pick is perfect for Millsap, Utah needs a SG and Posey can bring outside shooting in Sf position which they lack. I think that is a really good offer.

    Also, sorry to bust your bubble but George is not a SG and the only way he'll start is if Granger is traded or there is injury.
    How can you call trading one of your good starters for a pretty below average starter, some cap space and a draft pick "a really good offer". Utah will probably build around Harris, Millsap and Al for the next few years. Only thing that might change it is if Favors really breaks out

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  20. #17
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    How can you call trading one of your good starters for a pretty below average starter, some cap space and a draft pick "a really good offer". Utah will probably build around Harris, Millsap and Al for the next few years. Only thing that might change it is if Favors really breaks out
    Cause I think they will build around Derrick Favors not Millsap. Just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Cause I think they will build around Derrick Favors not Millsap. Just my opinion.
    They can probably still get a better deal than what you suggested though...

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  23. #19
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by yoadknux View Post
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    They can probably still get a better deal than what you suggested though...
    Good possiblity! but it's a offer on the table, start the negotiations.

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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Chandler can be had for the right price possibly. Have to try anyways!

    JR Smith is a really good SG. Can shoot from anywhere. create his own shot. Can take it to the hole and brings toughness, which we don't have in that position. He don't bring baggage like Mayo. And who's a bigger smash mouth then Reggie Miller.

    Rush, Expiring contract of Posey and 2011 1st rnd pick is perfect for Millsap, Utah needs a SG and Posey can bring outside shooting in Sf position which they lack. I think that is a really good offer.

    Also, sorry to bust your bubble but George is not a SG and the only way he'll start is if Granger is traded or there is injury.
    JR Smith has as much baggage as Mayo

    George is a wing that is pretty clear doesnt matter if it is SG or SF he will be good.

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  26. #21
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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    JR Smith has as much baggage as Mayo

    George is a wing that is pretty clear doesnt matter if it is SG or SF he will be good.
    Yep, your right, JR is a trouble maker, I didn't realize. Have to find someone else with that skill set now.

    If George can start at SG then great, I think he is to slow..obviously Pacers think so to or they wouldn't try to get Mayo and his long contract...just a thought.

    X JR Smith
    X OJ Mayo

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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Yep, your right, JR is a trouble maker, I didn't realize. Have to find someone else with that skill set now.

    If George can start at SG then great, I think he is to slow..obviously Pacers think so to or they wouldn't try to get Mayo and his long contract...just a thought.

    X JR Smith
    X OJ Mayo
    no the Pacers were gonna get a steal in J-mac for OJ. Reguadless Paul would have backed up OJ at the SG if we would have got him.


    JR will be a Bull next year i think.

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    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Red Bull.

    Red Bull gives you wiiiiiiiiiings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Or, in OJ Mayo's case, a 10 game suspension...

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  30. #24

    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    Instead of signing some young player who George will be better than anyway why don't we sign a vet for 3 years and let PG develop.

    How much do you guys think Jason Richardson will get paid next year? 3 years 8 million per? I know that may be over paying but he isn't a trouble maker and he seems like a hard worker that would fit into the locker room. In addition Richardson seems like a guy who could be the 6th man off the bench in his final year with out too much griping.

  31. #25

    Default Re: Improving Our Wings

    pacer wings will be fine. paul george looks like the real deal, danny is the real deal. basically case closed.

    a trade like the mayo trade is ok. upgrade the backup wing spot. remember, if lance cannot play the point, he may be the third wing anyway. spending lots of money on a 3rd wing seems a bit of a waste to me. given the glaring hole that is the PF spot.

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