Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Vogel's 4th quarter offense-a video breakdown

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Vogel's 4th quarter offense-a video breakdown

    Vogel's 4th quarter offense-a video breakdown
    By: imawhat

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...#ixzz1DrUnQkSo
    Associated Press

    "I think he's (Vogel) making it easier for us to play more to our strengths," Collison said. "For myself, he's making it easier for me to get to the paint and create for myself and others. For Danny, he's making it easier for him to get better shots.
    This has been the best two weeks I've had as a Pacers fan in years. Coach Frank Vogel has given the players some much-needed confidence after several years of mixed signals about playing time, unclear roles, and a confusing offensive gameplan.

    What's refreshing to most of us goes beyond a simple coaching change. There was no doubt we would see a honeymoon period after a half season of misery. But there is more to this honeymoon period than a boost of morale. The player rotations have been fantastic. The offense has been simplified. The philosophy has changed from outside-in to inside-out. Players have clear-cut and defined roles. We're making the most out of each player's strengths rather than molding them into a system. This article has a narrow focus on one small but very important change, which is the play-calling in our 4th quarter offense. And to narrow it further, I'm focusing on Danny Granger.

    Danny is our most talented scorer. His most important strength is his shot, and his most important weakness is his speed. Because of this, he's not able to penetrate easily and create his own shot. We've attempted to run him through screens in the past with mild to moderate success, but speed is a factor here as well.

    Because of his weaknesses, combined with opponents' defensive game-planning and a lack of plays that take advantage of his strengths, we've seen Granger struggle for the past two seasons with the game on the line.

    I went through a few 4th quarters from games earlier this season to reaffirm what I'd remembered. Problem #1 is that we weren't making a consistent effort to get the ball in Danny's hands, bad plays or not. I found several games where, outside of transition, he only touched the ball three or four times. I found some of the following videos from other games, which represent a good sample of his typical 4th quarter play.

    Here are some clips from a recent game against the Knicks.


    Granger pick and roll with Foster. The idea here is good, but there are two problems. 1-floor spacing. We have Rush and Posey at opposite ends of the court, which is good, but both are in the corners which means both defenders have less distance to cover for help. Between this and having Ford, a terrible finisher near the rim, NY is in a position to easily help should Foster roll to the basket. Also, the spacing is crammed because Foster sets the pick inside the foul circle. 2-it's Jeff Foster. Jeff's been very successful in his career at rolling to the basket, but he's not a threat to shoot. Because of #1 and #2, NY is ready to play Granger on this play.

    Amare's in good position before the play starts as he slides over to protect penetration, forcing Danny to pull back, meanwhile Foster is completely covered. Danny then takes an out-of-rhythm jumpshot after Amare dares him to with :13 on the shot clock.



    Granger iso on Toney Douglas. Despite a six-inch height advantage, Granger gets the ball at the elbow, steps back, and shoots a bad shot. Not much to say here, except Granger, the coach and the other players should have all recognized the huge mismatch by clearing Foster out and putting Danny in the post.



    Granger iso on Ronny Turiaf. Turiaf is a good defender, and with no help and poor spacing, Danny attempts to create off the dribble. With Wilson Chandler sagging off of Posey and helping Turiaf, Danny loses control of his dribble and turns it over. The volume is low, but Knicks announcer Walt Frazier comments after the turnover that Danny looks baffled about what he should do with the ball.


    Here are Danny's plays in our buzzer-beating win against the Hornets


    Danny shoots a long two in transition. The shot on its own is good. His feet are set and he's wide open, but there's :20 on the shot clock and no other Pacer is in the paint when he lets it go. Therefore, miss or make, it's a bad shot, in my opinion.



    Danny gets a cross-court pass from Posey, drives, then shoots a pull back jumper after creating space. It's about as good of a move as Danny can make on his own, but the shot is contested by NO.



    Danny moves around the perimeter, gets a good pick from Foster, but retreads to the three point line and chucks a three. This doesn't appear to be a set play. It's just another example of our coach asking Danny to create on his own. Also, as a side note, it appears that NO is playing a box zone, which discourages Danny from driving.




    Danny attempts to drive on three Bulls players in a recent loss to Chicago. This is a good play by Danny, but it's only one of a small amount of touches he got in the 4th quarter. Bulls announcers comment on Danny making a “rare drive”.

    No real attempts to get our best scorer some easy looks in the 4th quarter is one of many reasons we've struggled this season. It puts a ton of pressure on Danny to do something he can't do, and of course he doesn't perform well. Danny receives criticism on PD for not being a leader, and while shot selection and effort are partly on Danny, the reality is that he was put in a position to fail.


    A coaching change was made following that Bulls loss. Fast forward two weeks, and you can already see a significant difference in Danny's game. Here are a few plays from last night's win against the Bucks.


    Danny pick and roll with Hibbert. Like the first play above against the Knicks, this is a good idea, but there are a few differences. Look at the spacing, which is great here. George is deep in one corner, but Collison is in line with the elbow at the top, rather than being in the other corner a la Rush/Posey vs. Knicks in the top example. This gives Collison's defender, Brandon Jennings, less time to react to Granger's penetration than Rush/Posey's defenders. Also, Hibbert sets a pick near the three point line, whereas Foster was setting the pick in the free throw circle in the top example. This creates much more space and air.

    Another aside: spacing the floor is a great basketball ideal, but it means nothing if you're not using it. Here we're using picks to create opportunities for the penetrators and the shooters (if the opponent decides to focus on the penetrator).

    Granger's defender turns his hips toward Hibbert in anticipation of a pick, so Danny adjusts and drives right. Using his defender's momentum against him, Danny stops, Hibbert repositions himself for another pick, and Danny gets free for one of the more wide open shots in a halfcourt set he's taken this season. Again, it's a wide open shot created from a set play with subtle (but good) spacing differences, but what we don't see are the other opportunities that may have unfolded had the play gone differently. Hibbert was open near the top, and Tyler was down low (instead of Ford) had Danny continued to penetrate.


    Same exact set and spacing as the previous play, but this time Roy sets a pick on Danny's strong side. Danny drives to the basket, drawing Bogut. Roy continues to roll, Granger uses his body to create space from Bogut, and then feeds Roy for an easy hook. There was nearly an offensive foul and a three second violation on this play, but the opportunities created on this play were great. Keep in mind that Milwaukee is one of the top defensive teams in the league, if not the top.


    This was my favorite play of the night. This was coming out of a timeout, a situation where we had struggled all season until about two weeks ago.

    Before you watch this video or read below, rewatch the previous two videos and pay close attention to where Andrew Bogut is positioned as Danny makes his moves from Roy's picks.
    .
    .
    .
    Now that you've seen it, get ready to watch this play. It's the same exact set and spacing as the previous two plays. Bogut has not gone much beyond the free throw stripe on pick and rolls with two different scenarios; one where Danny drives and one where Danny shoots a three.

    Knowing this, Vogel makes a small adjustment. This time, we have Roy set a pick on Danny's weakside. Knowing that Bogut won't come out, we have Danny take one dribble and step in a for wide open elbow jumper. This is the best perimeter look I've seen for Danny in a very, very long time. And the crazy thing is that it's a very simple, easy adjustment that any player can make if communicated correctly. It was my favorite play because it shows our coach making in-game adjustments at crucial periods that work. I cannot overstate how important that is, especially for a player like Danny who needs help with scoring. You get Danny to step into a free throw area jumper in crunch time and he knocks it down almost 100% of the time. His great shooting touch becomes a weapon because he's able to get an easy, open look.


    Just to show the subtleties of adjustments, watch this last play with the previous three in mind. Milwaukee has adjusted to our pick and roll, which again has the same exact spacing. This time Bogut has adjusted and he's playing much further out from the free throw stripe than he was earlier.

    I show this play because Danny still gets a good free throw line jumper despite Milwaukee's adjustment. This game had been decided by this point, but had this situation played out, I think Milwaukee's adjustment would've opened up some great low post opportunities for Roy. You can see here that a quicker reaction by Roy gets him a 4 foot hookshot.


    We've read plenty of comments from Vogel and the players about the restructuring of our offense. We've seen our scoring and performances from players increase in quality and we've started winning. But now you can see why this is more than a honeymoon period. I look forward to seeing how the rest of the league adjusts to our changes, and then, how Vogel readjusts. It's an exciting time to be a Pacers fan again!
    Last edited by imawhat; 02-13-2011, 07:19 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Vogel's 4th quarter offense-a video breakdown

    I've missed seeing these analyses of yours, imawhat!

    To see them during better times ahead will be even better!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Vogel's 4th quarter offense-a video breakdown

      This is really a great post. Everyone should take a look at this.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Vogel's 4th quarter offense-a video breakdown

        Originally posted by BringJackBack View Post
        This is really a great post. Everyone should take a look at this.
        I agree. I was hesitant at first.. but it was a great choice. Doesnt it seem so simple? We would know these things too I feel.. DO know these things. And by things I mean these adjustments (but more importantly the rotations)

        Why it took so long to get someone who also "sees".. is why we'll enjoy this sweet kool-aid FOR YEARS
        Reggie Miller is a God. Period.

        Passion. Pride. Pacers.

        It's ALWAYS Miller Time.
        #31 & Only

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Vogel's 4th quarter offense-a video breakdown

          Excellent! Thanks...
          Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

          ------

          "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

          -John Wooden

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Vogel's 4th quarter offense-a video breakdown

            Bumping this because it should be required viewing/reading. Excellent.

            Comment

            Working...
            X