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Thread: Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

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    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
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    Default Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

    http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/e...48484/27467690

    A few weeks ago, there were a few stories out that the Pacers wanted to fire then-coach Jim O'Brien. The problem was that there wasn't a suitable replacement on the current bench. Nobody was worthy of even the interim tag.

    But that Pacers pulled the trigger anyway and promoted Frank Vogel to head coach, where he's the youngest in the league at 37.

    It didn't look like a great move for Indiana. The season was already slipping away after a promising start, players were regressing and now the most unproven coach you could have was taking over? Things were expected to go from bad to worse and in a hurry.

    Except the Pacers won their first game under Vogel. Then their second. Then thier third, and fourth. They lost the fifth, a fantastic effort against the Miami Heat in Miami, but responsed Wednesday with a big win over Charlotte, which actually put them back in eighth in the East. Under Vogel, the new coach who supposedly couldn't coach, Indiana is 5-1.

    Now before we get too excited and start touting him for awards, it's not like the Pacers are beating the league's best teams. The wins have come against Toronto, Cleveland, the wounded Blazers, New Jersey and Charlotte. Not a murderer's row, but that's the thing: Under O'Brien, the Pacers weren't beating teams they should. So far under Vogel, they are.

    They're playing different too. Everything is looser. The charge from the front office when Vogel took over was to play faster and play younger. That's happening. Under O'Brien, the team was one of the worst offensive teams in the league, relying almost exclusively on good shooting. They averaged under 98.0 points per game and had nights where they seriously couldn't score.

    With Vogel manning the wheel, Indiana is playing faster and averaging 107.0 points per game and have topped the century mark in all six games. This is against some stout defensive units too, like the Heat, Blazers and Bobcats.

    A few more, via Indy Cornrows: offensive rating is 110.1 under Vogel, 104.0 under O'Brien; free throw attempts have increased by nearly 10 a game; and defensive has improved in a big way, going from 105.6 points per 100 possessions under O'Brien to 97.7 under Vogel. The Pacers have... improved.

    You really don't have to look further than Roy Hibbert to see what's going on. He started out the season in a big way, averaging 15.6 and 9.4 rebounds in November. But under the apparent oppression of O'Brien, Hibbert fell off the face of the earth. He averged a little over 10 points a game in December and just 9.5 in January.

    Since the change, Hibbert is averaging 18.6 ppg and 8.3 rpg. So tell me something isn't different now. I wonder if a player can win Most Improved just for the change made in a month.

    Vogel put the change this way: "We're changing the identity of our basketball team dramatically. We are a power-post team, blood and guts, old school, smash-mouth team that plays with size, strength, speed, athleticism. We attack the basket."

    Whatever it is, it's working. And working well. The Pacers are back in the playoff hunt in the East and behind Vogel, are playing way better. He may not be doing anything. He may just be giving a little pep talk and getting out of the way. But whatever it is, he deserves credit but the Pacers have opened up and are playing loose.

    A change was needed in Indy and it's a good thing they decided to trust in their supposedly unfit assistant.
    So nice to get props on a national level, even more exciting , for the first time in over two years there are many games where I EXPECT them to win

    Before I was delusional, conning myself into thinking they might win, now its becoming a reality
    Sittin on top of the world!

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

    I don't enjoy doing this, but I feel I must. very simple, i'm not even going to comment

    Now before we get too excited and start touting him for awards, it's not like the Pacers are beating the league's best teams. The wins have come against Toronto, Cleveland, the wounded Blazers, New Jersey and Charlotte. Not a murderer's row, but that's the thing: Under O'Brien, the Pacers weren't beating teams they should. So far under Vogel, they are.

    Pacers record vs Toronto, Cleveland, the wounded Blazers, New Jersey and Charlotte.

    With O'Brien as coach - 7-1

    With Vogel as coach - 5-0

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    Default Re: Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't enjoy doing this, but I feel I must. very simple, i'm not even going to comment



    Pacers record vs Toronto, Cleveland, the wounded Blazers, New Jersey and Charlotte.

    With O'Brien as coach - 7-1

    With Vogel as coach - 5-0
    That's a great counterpoint UB
    Sittin on top of the world!

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    Default Re: Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't enjoy doing this, but I feel I must. very simple, i'm not even going to comment



    Pacers record vs Toronto, Cleveland, the wounded Blazers, New Jersey and Charlotte.

    With O'Brien as coach - 7-1

    With Vogel as coach - 5-0
    I noticed that right away, too. This year unlike the past couple of years, the only teams the Pacers couldn't beat were teams with similar records. This season, they've done a good job feasting on the under .500 crowd - even with O'Brien.

    O'Brien still needed to go because his rotations - especially in the 4th often bordered on ridiculous. They couldn't win the close games either and I feel that they often went with the wrong lineups - leaving players that were hot and playing effectively on the bench during the clutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

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    Default Re: Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't enjoy doing this, but I feel I must. very simple, i'm not even going to comment



    Pacers record vs Toronto, Cleveland, the wounded Blazers, New Jersey and Charlotte.

    With O'Brien as coach - 7-1

    With Vogel as coach - 5-0
    OK, so how about the loses to Philadelphia, Milwaukee (2), Houston*, Washington, Knicks*, Clips, Golden State, Portland?

    * = Yeah, I think we should beat them!

    One of my pet peeves is when a coach does something that costs the team a win. Now, Vogel has not had much of a chance to do that (only 6 games), but we've all seen JOB do it numerous times with his odd decisions on who was going to play (especially in the closing minutes of games), and how the team was going to play.
    Last edited by Tom White; 02-11-2011 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    OK, so how about the loses to Philadelphia, Milwaukee (2), Houston*, Washington, Knicks*, Clips, Golden State, Portland?

    * = Yeah, I think we should beat them!

    One of my pet peeves is when a coach does something that costs the team a win. Now, Vogel has not had much of a chance to do that (only 6 games), but we've all seen JOB do it numerous times with his odd decisions on who was going to play (especially in the closing minutes of games), and how the team was going to play.
    Two things. Those teams you mention are a step above the teams that were mentioned in the article and because they were mentioned in the article that was why I used those 5 teams (also those 5 teams we had played with JOb and then again with Vogel) . Also those teams you mentioned we have not played since Vogel has become coach.

    Record against those teams your mentioned under JOB - 4-8

    Oh, and Portland was included in the prior list though.

    My major point was to put into doubt what the writer of the article said and also to show that under JOB the pacers played prety well against teams wityh less than a .400 winning %. So I think it is false to suggest that JOB's downfall this season is that the pacers just couldn't beat the teams they should beat. We can discuss if the pacers should be beating .500 teams and those with a better than .400 winning % - obviously they need to,
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-11-2011 at 02:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    OK, so how about the loses to Philadelphia, Milwaukee (2), Houston*, Washington, Knicks*, Clips, Golden State, Portland?

    * = Yeah, I think we should beat them!

    One of my pet peeves is when a coach does something that costs the team a win. Now, Vogel has not had much of a chance to do that (only 6 games), but we've all seen JOB do it numerous times with his odd decisions on who was going to play (especially in the closing minutes of games), and how the team was going to play.
    The Clips dont get a *

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    Default Re: Under Vogel, the Pacers are flying

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Two things. Those teams you mention are a step above the teams that were mentioned in the article and because they were mentioned in the article that was why I used those 5 teams (also those 5 teams we had played with JOb and then again with Vogel) . Also those teams you mentioned we have not played since Vogel has become coach.

    Record against those teams your mentioned under JOB - 4-8

    Oh, and Portland was included in the prior list though.

    My major point was to put into doubt what the writer of the article said and also to show that under JOB the pacers played prety well against teams wityh less than a .400 winning %. So I think it is false to suggest that JOB's downfall this season is that the pacers just couldn't beat the teams they should beat. We can discuss if the pacers should be beating .500 teams and those with a better than .400 winning % - obviously they need to,
    My point in listing those teams were as follows:

    Philly - records would be even if we would have won.

    Mil - Below us in the standings.

    Wash - WAY below us in the standings.

    Houston - Below us IF we would have won those games.

    Golden State - Below us in the standings.

    Clippers - Below us in the standings.

    Knicks - Just because, darn it!

    Portland - Better record, but pretty banged up.

    So, looking at the records I think these are teams we should have beaten. I know it doesn't always work that way, but I think our chances would have been better without JOB.

    And no, I don't think JOB's only downfall was his record vs. those teams. He had plenty of other downfalls to chose from.
    Last edited by Tom White; 02-11-2011 at 04:16 PM.

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