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Thread: Stephenson coming soon...

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    Is there any history of a player being released over an accusation? Just because you sign a contract I have a hard time believing that laws just go out the window. I've been involved in the hiring/firing process and our paperwork said when hired that we can release you for any reason, and at any time, but it still didn't make us immune to the law. We couldn't fire someone for being caught doing something even if the eye witness was a police officer, until a jury came down with a guilty verdict.

    As far as Tinsley goes, he wasn't released. He just didn't play. Same thing that has happened to Lance. However if you released him, it could be construed as a signal of guilt. That's nothing like what happened to Tinsley.
    The team told Tinsley to stay at home and not come around the team anymore. That's in no way damaging Tinsley's career or labeling him as a cancer to the team? I'm not saying that I think the Pacers wronged Tinsley, because he deserved every ounce of punishment he received, just from being so stupid. I am saying that if a player makes headlines in the wrong way, a team can release them because it's conduct detrimental to the team, and it's very damaging to that team's brand.

    If Lance wanted to sue the Pacers for money lost because no team will sign him, then the Pacers should be able to sue him for ticket sales lost because some people don't like what Lance was accused of doing. By your way of thought Pacman Jones should sue the Dallas Cowboys and Mike Vanderjagt should sue the crap out of Peyton Manning. That's just not the way it works in sports.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by DGPR View Post
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    I am saying that if a player makes headlines in the wrong way, a team can release them because it's conduct detrimental to the team, and it's very damaging to that team's brand.
    No you can't. Jamaal found himself in the police blotter more than once, and the Pacers still couldn't release him like that.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    pic i took during pre season, i thought it was neat
    What is that light in the middle of the picture? Jim had a bright idea or something?

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No you can't. Jamaal found himself in the police blotter more than once, and the Pacers still couldn't release him like that.

    Only because they wanted to try and get something out of him if they could through trade. Once they figured out that Tinsley couldn't be traded to anybody they bought out his contract and released him.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by DGPR View Post
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    Only because they wanted to try and get something out of him if they could through trade. Once they figured out that Tinsley couldn't be traded to anybody they bought out his contract and released him.
    They were trying to release him for awhile, but he wouldn't accept the buy out the Pacers were offering.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    They were trying to release him for awhile, but he wouldn't accept the buy out the Pacers were offering.

    Because the Pacers were lowballing him and Tinsley wanted to hold out and get the maximum amount of money that he could get.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by DGPR View Post
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    Only because they wanted to try and get something out of him if they could through trade. Once they figured out that Tinsley couldn't be traded to anybody they bought out his contract and released him.
    But if what you said in your previous post was accurate, the Pacers could have simply cut him, instead of buying out his contract and saved millions of dollars.

    NBA teams can't release players just because they're headaches off the court, even if they're getting in trouble with the law.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    What is that light in the middle of the picture? Jim had a bright idea or something?
    im a fine arts major and i have no idea where it came from. its taken with my iphone so i doubt lens flare. sometimes neat stuff just happens.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    Is there any history of a player being released over an accusation? Just because you sign a contract I have a hard time believing that laws just go out the window. I've been involved in the hiring/firing process and our paperwork said when hired that we can release you for any reason, and at any time, but it still didn't make us immune to the law. We couldn't fire someone for being caught doing something even if the eye witness was a police officer, until a jury came down with a guilty verdict.

    As far as Tinsley goes, he wasn't released. He just didn't play. Same thing that has happened to Lance. However if you released him, it could be construed as a signal of guilt. That's nothing like what happened to Tinsley.
    In the NBA, I doubt there are any examples of players being released over accusations. A major part of that is the guaranteed contracts and that a team still has the financial burden to deal with, so the incentive of releasing the player is reduced. Just look at the Wizards, everyone thought they should part ways with Gil - and he was actually convicted of something - but really their only option was to hang on to him and get some value. Obviously it worked out, they got Rashard Lewis instead of just having a $20 mil hole in their cap every season for the next 40 years.

    The laws don't "go out the window," they just don't apply in certain scenarios. Brett Favre's over 40, he's part of a protected class according to the civil rights act; but no one would suggest that the Vikings would be violating employment laws by releasing him. The law also says that Indiana employment is at-will, but that definitely "goes out the window" when a contract is involved. Granger can't just show up to practice and tell the team he quits, then go play for Phoenix. He could definitely leave hourly employment at whatever place to go work somewhere else, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But if what you said in your previous post was accurate, the Pacers could have simply cut him, instead of buying out his contract and saved millions of dollars.

    NBA teams can't release players just because they're headaches off the court, even if they're getting in trouble with the law.
    I don't believe he was saying they'd cut him and not have to pay him. I think everyone here is educated enough as a fan to realize that the NBA has guaranteed contracts and that terminating them without pay is essentially impossible.


    With regard to the Tinsley situation... As I recall, it's not that they couldn't release him. They were trying to trade him, and then trying to get him to accept a low buyout, and he didn't budge. There was no incentive for the team to release him straight up, since he'd get the full amount whether he was released or paid to sit in Atlanta. From the team's perspective, if you have to pay him one way or another since there are no trade takers and he's rejecting low buyouts, why would you release him so that you can pay him to go play for a competitor when you can just keep him and pay him the same figure to not compete against the team?
    Last edited by smj887; 02-03-2011 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    But if what you said in your previous post was accurate, the Pacers could have simply cut him, instead of buying out his contract and saved millions of dollars.

    NBA teams can't release players just because they're headaches off the court, even if they're getting in trouble with the law.

    If the Pacers were to just cut Tinsley then they would be on the hook for the exact amount remaining on his contract. Typically a buyout is just a lump sum that is less than the remaining amount left on the contract.

    I used Wiki as a reference but here is what I'm talking about....




    Released players
    Released/waived players with guaranteed contracts continue to be included in their former team's payroll. Players whose contracts are not guaranteed are included in team salary in the amount they made while they were with the team. Players on non-guaranteed "summer contracts" are not included in team salary unless they make the regular season roster.
    If another team signs a released player who had a guaranteed contract (as long as the player has cleared waivers), the player's original team is allowed to reduce the amount of money they still owe the player (and lower their team payroll) by the right of set-off. This is true if the player signs with any professional team—it does not even have to be an NBA team. The amount the original team gets to set off is limited to one-half the difference between the player's new salary and a pro-rated share of the minimum salary for a one-year veteran (if the player is a rookie, then the rookie minimum is used instead).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by smj887 View Post
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    I don't believe he was saying they'd cut him and not have to pay him. I think everyone here is educated enough as a fan to realize that the NBA has guaranteed contracts and that terminating them without pay is essentially impossible.
    Maybe it's semantics, but doesn't "releasing" a player mean having the ability to cut them, like they do in the NFL?

    That's what I think of when someone say's "release."

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Maybe it's semantics, but doesn't "releasing" a player mean having the ability to cut them, like they do in the NFL?

    That's what I think of when someone say's "release."

    The team is just "releasing" that player from their duties to that team, and they are allowed to go play for another team and get paid by 2 different teams at the same time. The NFL isn't a good example because a lot of their contracts aren't guaranteed and if a player is cut then they are SOL if no other team wants to sign them ala Marvin Harrison.

    edit: Also shouldn't Marvin Harrison be able to sue the pants off of Jim Irsay since he was never convicted of any wrongdoing? I know the Colts didn't say they released him because of his legal troubles, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't think that, right?
    Last edited by DGPR; 02-03-2011 at 04:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by DGPR View Post
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    The team is just "releasing" that player from their duties to that team, and they are allowed to go play for another team and get paid by 2 different teams at the same time. The NFL isn't a good example because a lot of their contracts aren't guaranteed and if a player is cut then they are SOL if no other team wants to sign them ala Marvin Harrison.
    I guess my problem is the way you structured the argument then. Because the NBA doesn't need any excuse to buy out a player's contract. If they don't want them there because their breath stinks, they can simply buy out their contract and move on. They don't need a reason, like continual trouble with the police.

    I think that's where I got confused. It looked as if the two issues were being combined, when they don't need to be.

    EDIT: See that's my issue with your statement. NFL contracts are partially guarantee'd. When a player is released, the team still has to live up to a financial obligation. The NFL just makes the financial impact less than what the NBA does. If you just release a player in the NBA, you owe them all the money or whatever percentage the two sides agree on.

    Marvin has no legal ground to stand on, regardless if he has charges brought against him or not.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-03-2011 at 04:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    This is just my guess but I picture him being agressive and getting 8 points and showing that his size makes him our best defensive PG option. Most thought he was to slow but will be pleasently surprised when they realize he is quick enough to make it in the NBA as a point, but his size and strength will set him apart defensively from our other PGs.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    My guess is he'll get hurt in the first game he plays in and then we won't have to worry about him anymore.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    The Pacers still have to pay Stephenson regardless. So why would they cut him before finding out the verdict?

    Whether a good lawyer would win that case or not, it doesn't make sense for the Pacers to do it, unless he gets stupid again (er..third time)

    Then add in that Larry clearly likes Lance, and probably isn't willing to give him up yet because of accusations, before he sees him on the court.

    I think Larry's making a mistake here for several reasons. But if he's found not guilty, then Larry would probably be quite upset at himself for letting Lance go.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Regardless of what happens to Lance in a legal standpoint, I would still be happy to see him play because he does have talent and quite a bit of potential. Him being accused of a crime or having a girl do things to him in a hotel room that's not Disney friendly, still can't take away from him being a talented basketball player. I'm not in any big hurry to see Lance play because for one, I'm more excited about Paul George's future and two, I think Lance needs to mature some more and sitting him on the bench and letting him watch the grown ups play sends a signal that he has to earn his spot, it isn't given to him.

    Also I really wish that they would cut the point guard crap with Lance anyways. He looked OK as a point guard in the Summer League against a bunch of scrubs and D-League players and that's great, but he's going to get victimized on a nightly basis against guys like D Williams, Paul, Rondo, and Rose.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by DGPR View Post
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    Also I really wish that they would cut the point guard crap with Lance anyways. He looked OK as a point guard in the Summer League against a bunch of scrubs and D-League players and that's great, but he's going to get victimized on a nightly basis against guys like D Williams, Paul, Rondo, and Rose.
    See, I'm withholding judgment on the whole "Should Lance play PG" argument. I wanna see how he does with extended minutes. Who knows, maybe he could become a Jalen Rose-type of PG for us in that he plays the back-up 2-Guard and then can switch over to the Point for a few minutes once Reggie (Paul) subs in. And who knows, maybe his size could be an advantage against the bigger guards like Rose and Williams? Darren gives up 30 pounds to Rose and almost 50 to D-Will. Lance is bigger and taller than both.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    See, I'm withholding judgment on the whole "Should Lance play PG" argument. I wanna see how he does with extended minutes. Who knows, maybe he could become a Jalen Rose-type of PG for us in that he plays the back-up 2-Guard and then can switch over to the Point for a few minutes once Reggie (Paul) subs in. And who knows, maybe his size could be an advantage against the bigger guards like Rose and Williams? Darren gives up 30 pounds to Rose and almost 50 to D-Will. Lance is bigger and taller than both.

    Yeah but the alternative was to let Travis Best pound the ball for 20 seconds at a time.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by DGPR View Post
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    Yeah but the alternative was to let Travis Best pound the ball for 20 seconds at a time.
    Ugh, I cringe whenever I see that name.


    Hicks should add "Travis Best" to the Word Filter.

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Does it really matter to you what he does in his own personal life?

    While you might think that *** play is disgusting, that's your opinion. It's not illegal. If Lance doesn't care that people know his sexual fetishes, or whatever, then why should you?

    It says more about our society, and looking down on him because of what he likes, than it say's about Lance. We don't need to be a nation full of judgemental squares. Obviously I think we don't need to go to the extreme other way either.

    But what Lance likes to do in his own private time is his business. As long as it's legal, then so be it.

    The only thing I have a problem with, is that he got a hooker. There are plenty of women out there that are more than willing to engage in activities out there, who you don't have to pay.
    You are missing my point. I don't care about what he was doing with the hooker. I care about who he chose and the extreme lack of judgement that went along with that decision.

    The fact that he wanted his prostate tickled is of zero consequence to me. The fact that he knowingly chose to pay for it to a whore who has a track record of publicizing her NBA conquests is absurdly bad decision making.

    When a member of the organization told me prior to the staircase incident that Lance was "the dumbest person I have ever met", I didn't think much of it.

    But for somebody on strict probabtion to hookup with this jezebel literally days after a story about her and Ronny Turiaf comes out is flat out retarded.
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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDon View Post
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    It's kind of funny with the hype being built up surrounding Stephenson's debut it's getting to the point to where it feels like watching the WWE and waiting for Hulk Hogan to return. Maybe a bit of hyperbole there but it's starting to feel like that. My opinion if it happens cool..if not life goes on. Although if Lance comes out to "I am a real american" and rips his jacket off Hogan style that'd be kind of cool.
    A better comparison is probably the hype that surrounded a guy from a smaller company, ECW, named Tazz. The guy had monster hype from the few that had seen him. He knew how to make the moves look good and do crazy spots. Problem is, when he got to the big time (WWE) everyone else realized he was 5'8" and didn't have what it takes to make it in the big league.
    Spoiler Spoiler:

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    People still can't seem to grasp that we can't release him based on being charged, no matter how obvious that case could be. So no, we couldn't have cut ties with him yet.

    If you haven't been found guilty by a court of law, then you're not guilty. An employer cutting ties with an employee who has only been accused, and not found guilty would set up for a serious lawsuit that would not be won by the Pacers.

    As far as letting Stephenson go, they could have cut him to keep Rolle.

    They can cut him and sign someone from the NBADL.

    They can trade him.

    If the Pacers did a trade where they have to take back an extra player, they can cut Stephenson to make room for the extra player.

    They could cut him for the recent video he was in.

    There are numerous reasons the Pacers could cut Stephenson w/o it having anything to do with his current legal problem. Apparently, Bird is in love with Stephenson's "potential" just like James White. The Pacers cut White b4 the season started after signing him to a 2 year guaranteed contract, so I'm not buying the "you can't cut Stephenson b/c of his legal problem."

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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    When a member of the organization told me prior to the staircase incident that Lance was "the dumbest person I have ever met", I didn't think much of it.
    Really?

    Well if he's retained I hope the dumb is concentrated outside the basketball court (hmmm...if that's the best I can hope for it's kind of scary) and doesn't translate into "low bb iq" ala Ike Diogu. Players that have physical talent but simply do not have the mental fortitude to learn and execute plays are depressing.
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    Default Re: Stephenson coming soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by DGPR View Post
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    but he's going to get victimized on a nightly basis against guys like D Williams, Paul, Rondo, and Rose.
    LOL

    You just named the top PG's in the league, who would victimize 95% of the league just like Lance
    Sittin on top of the world!

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