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Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

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  • #1

    Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

    Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone
    -Jeff Rabjohns

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2011...l|text|Fever|s

    After the Indiana Pacers shootaround Monday morning, new coach Frank Vogel huddled with members of the team's public relations staff.

    As a few suggestions were made concerning his media appearances, Vogel said, "Before I commit to that, let me ask you this: Is that going to upset our guys?"

    As he steps into his first head coaching role, replacing the dismissed Jim O'Brien, Vogel seems to have his players' interest at the forefront.

    The Pacers interim coach had excellent communication with the players during his 31/2 years as an assistant. He plans to keep that as the head coach.

    "The way I deal with players now is no different than how I've dealt with them my whole coaching career," Vogel, 37, said as he prepared his team for Monday's game against Toronto, a 104-93 win. "I try to be upfront, try to show them that I'm on their side, that I'm trying to help them do whatever they can do to succeed in their careers.

    "I think that's the difference in pro coaching versus college or high school, where you're the dictator. In the NBA, you have to sell to these guys that you're in their corner to help them, to organize and tie their whole team together. They all know that winning helps their career, and I want them to know I'm on their side and in their corner."

    That's one way Vogel's approach differs from O'Brien, who was much more authoritarian.

    "Coach (O'Brien) had a very strong voice, so it's a little different without him," Pacers starting shooting guard Mike Dunleavy said. "Frank has been a little more involved this year, especially with the younger guys, and guys like me, Danny (Granger) and Jeff (Foster), who have been around him for 31/2 years, we have a good rapport with him, so it should be a seamless transition."

    While Vogel has been with O'Brien throughout his coaching career, Vogel stressed he is not a clone. He and O'Brien had healthy disagreements at times over approaches to using players.

    Vogel has more of a positive voice while O'Brien would criticize players publicly.

    "I think there's going to be some different messages," Vogel said. "In terms of the delivery, I have to be myself. Coach O'Brien and I have different personalities, as does every human being. We're close friends and always will be, but I have to be myself."

    O'Brien handled most coaching tasks himself, from writing game keys on the marker board to handling pregame video setup in the locker room. Vogel plans to delegate.

    It was evident Monday. Vogel listened to his assistants at the start of long timeouts before talking to the players, something O'Brien didn't do.

    "A lot of the advice I've gotten the past 24 hours has come along those lines: 'Don't think you can do it all yourself,' " Vogel said. "We've got a great coaching staff, so I intend to use them."

    Vogel handled a media blitz Sunday and Monday, doing 10 interviews and five radio station appearances in 24 hours.

    As for strategy, he said Monday he wants to re-establish center Roy Hibbert in the post and have Josh McRoberts and Tyler Hansbrough turn a perceived weakness -- power forward -- into a strength. He also wants a consistent rotation, which hasn't been seen this year.

    Vogel's positive reinforcement was evident Monday. When Hibbert forced two Toronto turnovers, Vogel yelled to Hibbert, "Give me more of that, Roy, give me more."

    Vogel met one-on-one with every player Monday, meetings he and the players said went well. Hibbert, whose playing time varied wildly under O'Brien, seemed to regain his stride, getting 24 points and 11 rebounds in 30 minutes.

    "It's great because he has confidence in me," Hibbert said. "I had that at one time in myself, but I lost that after a while. You make a mistake and it's hard when you come out of the game and you're on the bench half the game and don't get to make an impact. It's nice, but it's a responsibility and I'm willing to take that on."








    You can't help but like and root this guy on. He is exactly the type of guy that needs to coach this team right now. He adds stability and positivity into an environment that has been wholly unstable and negative. He really does care about these guys.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

    This guy is quickly growing on me. Every time I hear or read something, it's exactly what I'd like to hear. It's certainly early, but I haven't seen any signs that he will contradict himself either.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

      Ya, I have always liked Vogel as a person and what little I have read about ,or heard about him..
      But I felt under O'Brien , that he wasn't allowed to shine much. Due to JOB's (as mentioned in article) "authoritarian" approach..

      It appears our players really respect him, and I think they will really play their hearts out for the guy.. mark my words..
      "Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

        I've heard that O'Brien would not let his assitant coaches do much but I kind of wrote that off as people just picking on O'Brien because they didn't like him.

        But now to find out he wouldn't even let them write the keys to the game on the chalk board or set up video? I'm thinking Jim needs to spend some time being an assistant himself for awhile just so he can maybe get a dose of humility.

        This article and the Tyler interview I think is probably a lot closer to the feelings of most of the players than the P.R. video's released by PS&E, I'm not blaming them for those vids.


        Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

          This just in: IndyStar to give Vogel darling media coverage, still intends to clobber O'Brien for the foreseeable future.

          As happy as I was with the victory last night, I couldn't help but cringe when I thought about the prospect of reading garbage like this the next day. Rabjohns, Wells and Kravitz would be perfect fits for a tabloid. What is it about defeating Toronto without O'Brien that sends them into a frenzy? I had to laugh at their tweets during the game, extolling Vogel's "sideline demeanor" and the difference in "vibe."

          It's just too much. O'Brien never listened to his assistants? Then how the heck did he have these "healthy disagreements" with Vogel if they weren't engaging in open and frank dialogue? Find me a head coach in the NBA who doesn't have assistants that disagree with him. They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.

          Wow, O'Brien criticized players publicly? So does George Karl, Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and pretty much every coach in the NBA. Who bleeping cares?!! O'Brien said plenty of positive things (e.g. "Hibbert is the hardest working player I've been around in a long time."), but it was never fake positivity. All I know is--if the Roy Hibbert Hype machine plans to continue this "future top 5 center" stuff, then he better do this consistently against the top centers in the league. Andrea Bargnani does not qualify.

          I can't wait for another fluff piece like this after our next game, perhaps next time we can hail Vogel's "non-acerbic" personality and its instrumental role in defeating Cleveland.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

            There's a lot to be said of a coach that is well known for his player relations.

            Vogel knows the importance of imparting confidence on the players but also challenging them when he needs to. The ice bucket dunking and meeting one on one win each player definitely showed how he is respected but can also joke with the guys.

            I know we still have a lot to learn about Vogel but he's off to a great start on and off the court.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

              Originally posted by DonSwanson View Post
              This just in: IndyStar to give Vogel darling media coverage, still intends to clobber O'Brien for the foreseeable future.

              As happy as I was with the victory last night, I couldn't help but cringe when I thought about the prospect of reading garbage like this the next day. Rabjohns, Wells and Kravitz would be perfect fits for a tabloid. What is it about defeating Toronto without O'Brien that sends them into a frenzy? I had to laugh at their tweets during the game, extolling Vogel's "sideline demeanor" and the difference in "vibe."

              It's just too much. O'Brien never listened to his assistants? Then how the heck did he have these "healthy disagreements" with Vogel if they weren't engaging in open and frank dialogue? Find me a head coach in the NBA who doesn't have assistants that disagree with him. They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.

              Wow, O'Brien criticized players publicly? So does George Karl, Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and pretty much every coach in the NBA. Who bleeping cares?!! O'Brien said plenty of positive things (e.g. "Hibbert is the hardest working player I've been around in a long time."), but it was never fake positivity. All I know is--if the Roy Hibbert Hype machine plans to continue this "future top 5 center" stuff, then he better do this consistently against the top centers in the league. Andrea Bargnani does not qualify.

              I can't wait for another fluff piece like this after our next game, perhaps next time we can hail Vogel's "non-acerbic" personality and its instrumental role in defeating Cleveland.
              Wait...are you Jim O'Brien's dad?

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

                reminds me of Rick carlisle.

                DonSwanson I wouldn't say it quite like that, but there is a lot of truth in your post, so i say thanks.

                I'm trying not to mention the former coach or even broach the topic
                Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-01-2011, 09:51 AM.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

                  "It's great because he has confidence in me," Hibbert said. "I had that at one time in myself, but I lost that after a while. You make a mistake and it's hard when you come out of the game and you're on the bench half the game and don't get to make an impact. It's nice, but it's a responsibility and I'm willing to take that on."

                  Yikes. Coach or no coach, Roy needs to find confidence in himself that exists outside of what other people say.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

                    I can't wait to see what our team looks like after the trade deadline and with Vogel at the helm for the remainder of the season. Last nights team looked like the November team and that feels good in itself. We don't know how much that has to do with solid rotations/gameplan etc. or if it has to do with higher morale but this is extremely refreshing.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

                      Wow. Where to start.


                      Originally posted by DonSwanson View Post
                      This just in: IndyStar to give Vogel darling media coverage, still intends to clobber O'Brien for the foreseeable future.
                      You are saying that like he didn't deserve it..

                      As happy as I was with the victory last night, I couldn't help but cringe when I thought about the prospect of reading garbage like this the next day. Rabjohns, Wells and Kravitz would be perfect fits for a tabloid. What is it about defeating Toronto without O'Brien that sends them into a frenzy? I had to laugh at their tweets during the game, extolling Vogel's "sideline demeanor" and the difference in "vibe."
                      Did you not see the difference in the team? Did you not see our best players close out the game? Did you not read the Hansbrough interview?!

                      It's just too much.
                      No, its not. At least not for Pacers fans. I can't speak for Jim O'Brien fans though..

                      O'Brien never listened to his assistants? Then how the heck did he have these "healthy disagreements" with Vogel if they weren't engaging in open and frank dialogue?
                      What? The issue at hand was that O'Brien didn't give them freedom, not a listening issue. Nice attempt at spin though.

                      Find me a head coach in the NBA who doesn't have assistants that disagree with him. They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.
                      Most head coaches in the NBA wouldn't coach SO BAD THAT LARRY BIRD FIRED THEM. Larry Bird seriously had to fire Jim O'Brien.. The same Larry Bird that makes Donnie Walsh look impatient. An assistant would be insane to agree with him.


                      Wow, O'Brien criticized players publicly? So does George Karl, Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and pretty much every coach in the NBA. Who bleeping cares?!! O'Brien said plenty of positive things (e.g. "Hibbert is the hardest working player I've been around in a long time."), but it was never fake positivity. All I know is--if the Roy Hibbert Hype machine plans to continue this "future top 5 center" stuff, then he better do this consistently against the top centers in the league. Andrea Bargnani does not qualify.
                      "Hibbert has been terrible."

                      "We have no post prescence."

                      "We figured out that Price can play, so we are going to sit him."

                      "Irrelevant."

                      And the quote you gathered up seriously is irrelevant because a couple of weeks after he praised Hibbert, he contradicted himself and bashed Hibbert.

                      I can't wait for another fluff piece like this after our next game, perhaps next time we can hail Vogel's "non-acerbic" personality and its instrumental role in defeating Cleveland.
                      This has to be a joke. It HAS to be. Do you seriously feel the need to defend Jim when he isn't even on the team anymore?!

                      How can one defend the indefensible.

                      Go post here if you still feel the need to defend him: jimobriendigest.com
                      Last edited by hoops_guy; 02-01-2011, 10:01 AM.
                      We need better than solid. No JJ Redicks, Andray Blatche, Mike Dunleavy type guys to have big roles on our team.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

                        It probably should be pointed out that a coach who deferred to the players' feelings and wishes was NOT what was needed when the previous coach was hired.

                        Vogel is in a position to be successful because he (so far) has players who are reasonable in their feelings and actions.

                        Other than that, I am happy to see a coach who communicates well with players. We'll see how well that translates to the Media after the honeymoon is over.
                        BillS

                        A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                        Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

                          A lot of times, younger teams experience growth when there's a coaching change. Not because of the different coaches exactly, but because of a new voice and a new feel. O'brien was here for 3.5 years. Vogel's an unproven coach in this league and might never have another head coaching job after this stint as interim, but there's a very real possibility that our team grows under him.

                          Its like...uh...cutting the split ends away so that your hair grows back long and bouncy and reaches its epic upside. - Jay Bilas' hair stylist.
                          "man, PG has been really good."

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

                            Originally posted by DonSwanson View Post
                            This just in: IndyStar to give Vogel darling media coverage, still intends to clobber O'Brien for the foreseeable future.

                            As happy as I was with the victory last night, I couldn't help but cringe when I thought about the prospect of reading garbage like this the next day. Rabjohns, Wells and Kravitz would be perfect fits for a tabloid. What is it about defeating Toronto without O'Brien that sends them into a frenzy? I had to laugh at their tweets during the game, extolling Vogel's "sideline demeanor" and the difference in "vibe."

                            It's just too much. O'Brien never listened to his assistants? Then how the heck did he have these "healthy disagreements" with Vogel if they weren't engaging in open and frank dialogue? Find me a head coach in the NBA who doesn't have assistants that disagree with him. They ran with the same tired narrative about how O'Brien supposedly didn't listen to Dick Harter, without providing any context that O'Brien and Harter collaborated in the creation of a team defensive style that they used in Boston, Philly, and Indiana, a defensive system which is proven in generating overachieving outcomes. This season's Pacers are yet another example of this.

                            Wow, O'Brien criticized players publicly? So does George Karl, Byron Scott, Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, and pretty much every coach in the NBA. Who bleeping cares?!! O'Brien said plenty of positive things (e.g. "Hibbert is the hardest working player I've been around in a long time."), but it was never fake positivity. All I know is--if the Roy Hibbert Hype machine plans to continue this "future top 5 center" stuff, then he better do this consistently against the top centers in the league. Andrea Bargnani does not qualify.

                            I can't wait for another fluff piece like this after our next game, perhaps next time we can hail Vogel's "non-acerbic" personality and its instrumental role in defeating Cleveland.
                            What would you have expected to see? Most readers have been sick to their stomachs regarding the team they follow; so the writers are going to right feel good articles following the change.

                            But let's take a look at the article a little more closely. There are a few quotes from Vogel and Vogel is an apparent friend of Jim O'Brien. With that in mind, I don't think that Vogel is going to state anything in his contrast of his style with O'Brien's other than what is true. We have not seen Vogel attempt to put the dagger into O'Brien's back in any interview that he has been in yet. Therefore, I would be inclined to accept those things he has stated so far... until proven otherwise anyway.

                            I agree with you in part. I do think we will see more articles of the type in this thread. Afterall, aren't we going through what one might call a "honeymoon"? Reports are almost always good during that stretch of time. But even so, that doesn't mean that the honeymoon isn't the reality.

                            But already the contract in style IS a welcome difference. Just think, Vogel actally praises a players performance during games... and after. Let's contrast that with referring to the player or his performance as "irrelevant" the next day. Positive reinforcement? I'm not sure that I've seen that associated with a player for a long time. Well... at least 3-1/2 years.

                            You mention other coaches that have been critical of players through the years... and I agree. But I don't think I've ever seen a coach do it in the way that O'Brien does. It's like he goes straight for the jugular rather than attempt to temper his negative statements with positive ones. Like I've said before, he could easily have said things like "Paul George had a great offensive game, but has a lot of work ahead of himself on the defensive end because he was losing his man constantly." Instead, he simply says "Paul's game was irrelevant." It's so important with most young players to temper the bad with the good. Throw them a bone as you are attempting to correct things. O'Brien hardly ever did, at least not publicly. There was never any gray area with him; it was either all bad or it was all good.

                            So, I'm glad to see the "fluff". Whether we win or lose, I probably won't be surprised to still be reading "fluff" regarding the coach in April any more than I am now. He is different than his predecessor in how he deals with players. And for this young team is a good, good thing.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Vogel quick to show he's no O'Brien clone (Indystar)

                              I know many were interested in what Mark and Slick might say once Jim O'brien was gone. I listned to their pregaame discussion and they did not mention anything negative or positive about Jim. Just that you knew it was coming

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