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Thread: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

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    Default O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    http://www.indycornrows.com/2011/1/3...ents-on-firing

    Harry Truman, during his time in the White House, was a considered a poor president. The conventional wisdom of the 1950s viewed him as potentially one of the worst in American history. He was dumb and bad then, but today President Truman is correctly remembered as one of the country’s best chief executives. Truman did nothing to affect this change, passed no new legislation, gave no fresh speeches or military orders. Merely, a lot of people realized a lot of other people were wrong.

    It was quite the turnaround.

    Star-divide

    Certainly, none of that relates in any way to Jim O’Brien’s performance as Pacers head coach, but it is just one of many, many examples in American history, in human history, in universal history, or whatever kind of history you choose, sports history even, of conventional wisdom being wrong.

    Want a basketball example? Doc Rivers. Loathed, hated, mocked by Celtics fans, until he took their team to two NBA Finals. Rivers was a dolt, but a coach learns quite a bit, apparently, once Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen dress in his locker room.

    The popular sentiment among Indiana fans is to condemn O’Brien, fired Sunday in his fourth season here. In the interests of keeping this column clean, I won’t cull some of the more hateful rhetoric toward our team’s coach, for which the worst offenders should hang their head in shame. He was still the Pacers’ coach, after all.

    But I will personalize these remarks somewhat. I like Jim O’Brien. This is fairly well-known. I’m one of the few Pacers fans who refuses to toe the line like a good little sheep and rage against the foibles of "JOB." Quite often, I get categorized as a Jim O’Brien defender, and that’s fine.

    I wouldn’t have fired O’Brien today, or at any point this season, and perhaps not even in April, depending on what we saw from our team in the second half of the season.

    The lessons of the Indianapolis Colts’ success are many, but the least of them is hardly continuity and stability. When it comes to coaching, especially, I believe many in professional sports are fired too quickly. As soon as a team struggles, boom, talk radio is on the coach’s job status like syrup on a pancake.

    That doesn’t mean stability for stability’s sake with an unproven leader or system. But try as they might, no anti-O’Brien fan can make a compelling case that O’Brien or his system never succeeded.

    O’Brien knows how to take a team to the playoffs in the Eastern Conference. Did it twice, in Boston and in Philadelphia. That track record accounted for a large part of my faith in him to do the same in Indiana.

    His offensive system, of spacing the court with shooters and using the 3-point shot to open lanes for driving and cutting, works with the right players, and the front office did a decent job tailoring the roster to O’Brien’s pretty-decent concepts. Two years ago, Indiana ranked fifth in the NBA in scoring.

    In hindsight, that 2008-’09 season is even more remarkable given that the Pacers didn’t have a Kobe Bryant or Steve Nash, the sort of coach’s-dream facilitator enjoyed by some of the other Top-5 offensive units.

    O’Brien’s best four players that year, in terms of the offense, were Danny Granger (his excellent breakout season), Mike Dunleavy, T.J. Ford, and Troy Murphy. One of those guys (Dunleavy) played in only 18 games. Two of them (Ford and Murphy) are held in contempt by some of the same folks who despise O’Brien.

    So how on God’s green earth did a team relying heavily upon Marquis Daniels, Jarrett Jack, Stephen Graham, the original deer-in-the-headlights versions of Rush/Hibbert, and Rasho Freaking Nesterovic manufacture one of the NBA’s best offenses?

    Given that Daniels, Jack, Graham, and Nesterovic have played only minor roles in other cities after leaving Indianapolis, a rational train of thought might credit O’Brien’s system. But I forgot the part where suggesting competency on the part of O’Brien amounts to treason.

    Look, joking aside, of course the man had faults. Few coaches don’t. But accurately pointing out mistakes and weaknesses doesn’t poison the entirety of a coach’s performance.

    Fans who represent my beliefs honestly know I’m not an O’Brien apologist (if one accepts the premise that an apology is owed). This hasn’t been O’Brien’s best season in Indiana. I’ll gladly point out the problems, if you’d like.

    Obie badly mishandled the power forward position, causing the team to play four-on-five offensively early on with Josh McRoberts, who owns no discernible offensive skill other than dunking ability, and had not done anything in his NBA career to suggest use as a starter. O’Brien played James Posey at the four, despite the veteran’s size and age disadvantages and the fact that other coaches had used Posey exclusively at small forward. Posey had a 3-point shot, which O’Brien liked, but running Posey out there on the 10 percent chance he’d have a game like the Hornets game (Dec. 20, 15 points) didn’t make up for the rest of the nights in which JP was essentially useless. It took O’Brien a ridiculous 32 games to realize Tyler Hansbrough was the best power forward on the roster (as I enjoyed Bird quietly alluding to in yesterday’s press conference).

    O’Brien couldn’t settle on a nine-man rotation, which good teams win with. True, O’Brien never had a good team, and most of the so-called rotation issues were driven by the constant string of injuries the past two years, but it certainly was bothersome this season, as I pointed out several times on my Twitter account. Hansbrough’s in, Hansbrough’s out, Jones is in, Jones is out, Foster’s out, Foster’s in, George is in, George is out, and so on.

    In Milwaukee, on a last-second play in which the Bucks’ only chance was to get a tip-in, O’Brien used the 7’2 Hibbert to guard the inbounder, rather than the basket. Didn’t like it.

    Against San Antonio at home, Posey finally sat for 48 minutes, then with under a second to play, removed his warm-up and took the most important shot of the game ice-cold. Didn’t like it.

    In Golden State, on Monta Ellis’ game winning shot, Rush got isolated on Ellis, even though Rush is better defending bigger players and got his ankles broken by a quick crossover that Ford or Collison might’ve contained. Didn’t like it.

    The offense, for whatever reason, endured a lot of winnable games shooting under 40 percent. Didn’t like it.

    But guess what? Evaluating a coach is tough. Players give us a bunch of statistics. A coach’s performance, other than wins and losses, is subjective, and even wins and losses are contained by high-and-low-end possibilities. For example, O’Brien wasn’t winning 55 games in Indiana. Gregg Popovich or Jerry Sloan wouldn’t have won 55 games in Indiana, either, with O’Brien’s rosters.

    So just spouting off 121-169 (Obie’s overall record here) doesn’t do a whole lot. (O’Brien was 182-158 outside of Indy, for those wondering.) Bird said it himself yesterday: "Just because he’s the head coach doesn’t mean he’s the reason we’ve lost all these games."

    What’s more, that Indiana record doesn’t come with the injury asterisk that it should. Followers of the Pacers on a game-by-game basis under O’Brien know this is the first healthy team he’s had in three years.

    Don’t take my word. When the aforementioned Rivers came through Indianapolis this season, he made a telling remark about our coaching staff: "They’ve had a three-year stretch where you can’t have as many injuries as they’ve had, so [O’Brien] has a chance to actually coach his team for the first time in awhile."

    And that’s correct. Even in 2007-’08, O’Brien’s first year, his point guard (Jamaal Tinsley) and best player (Jermaine O’Neal) combined to play in only 70 of a possible 162 games (less than 50 percent). The issues of Dunleavy’s knee and Granger’s foot the next two seasons, among many other ailments, are of such recent importance that they don’t need to be rehashed.

    Okay, says the irritated O’Brien basher, what about this year? He had his players in uniform, not in suits. Clearly 17-27 is a bad record. To which an O’Brien defender says: Well, bad teams have bad records.

    Coaches, as Pacers analyst Tim Donahue astutely pointed out the other day, are assigned far too much influence by fans. This is a player’s league.

    The Pacers lack talent. Enough talent. Seasoned talent. Talent that knows how to win. Star talent. Diverse talent. Consistent talent.

    Listening to Frank Vogel try to convince himself otherwise was one of the few comedic highlights yesterday.

    "We’ve got a good basketball team," Vogel said. "I’m taking over a good basketball team. I fully expect us to make the playoffs this year. I believe this is a good basketball team."

    With all due respect to Coach Vogel (who I hope succeeds early and often, by the way), the standard for use of the word ‘good’ needs to be lowered.

    Healthy and good teams don’t end up 17-27.

    And that sums up the Jim O’Brien era, in my eyes. He never had a good team, and he had one healthy team, whose season O’Brien didn’t even get to coach to its completion.

    That’s a fair chance only in this insane, fire-so-and-so.net age, where fans who couldn’t coach a team if they received Vince Lombardi’s implanted brain decide on an impulse that the guys running their team are idiots and ask for termination.

    Had the players quit on O’Brien, as they did Rick Carlisle, I would support the firing, as I did Carlisle’s. But I don’t think our guys ever stopped playing hard.

    ESPN’s John Hollinger has a lot of credibility. He talks to scouts and general managers and all sorts of basketball minds. His job is to analyze the NBA.

    Hollinger said last week that O’Brien is the "least of [Indy’s] problems."

    The view outside of this fan base is, as the Miami Herald reported, that O’Brien is a "respected coach." Bill Simmons, author of The Book of Basketball and famous Celtics fan, has written that Obie is "an underrated coach who worked a borderline miracle with the '02 and '03 Celtics."

    I agree with them. I think O’Brien’s a smart guy who knows basketball and deserved better. A better fate. Better players. And, of course, better treatment from fans.

    Unfortunately, that means I don’t get to celebrate like so many other Pacer people at news of his demise. You seem to be having fun. My advice: enjoy it while it lasts, because the smart bet is we’re about to find out O’Brien wasn’t the problem.

    I said there were a few funny moments at Conseco Sunday. Other than Vogel’s overly-optimistic evaluation, there was the fact that Frank has had but one boss as a coach in the NBA. One boss in Boston, Philadelphia, and Indiana. Jim O’Brien.

    "He’s been a mentor to me in every sense of the word, and I wouldn’t be here without him," Vogel said.

    The irony of O’Brien-bashers celebrating the promotion of an O’Brien loyalist is almost too much. After all, it’s not like Vogel learned just about everything he knows about the NBA from the awful, bad, terrible O’Brien. Maybe there won’t be much change, after all!

    From a standpoint of spacing the court…

    At any rate, I appreciate those who read this with an open mind to try to understand my rather lonely point-of-view. I wish Jim well and thank him for working hard to try to win. If nothing else, we ought to be able to agree on that much.
    some good points made by the author
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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    I got to here:

    O’Brien knows how to take a team to the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.
    Welp, from what we've heard from his meeting with Larry, he didn't know how to get this team to the playoffs. And that's all that matters.

    [edit] I scanned the rest of the article and found this gem:

    ESPN’s John Hollinger has a lot of credibility.
    Yeah, um, not to be impolite to the author, but this isn't worth my time. I'm gonna go back to watch the rain freezing.
    Last edited by Kegboy; 01-31-2011 at 07:14 PM.
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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Many PD posters have been saying the same thing....JO'B maybe "part" of the problem...but the overall lack of talent on the roster is the other "part" of the problem that shares equal blame for our current situation.

    I've said it before....we're a mediocre Team that is capable of under-achieving ( after December ) or over-achieving ( before December )...how we do would be based purely on what the Coach does.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    That was to long for me. Who was the author?

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    tl;dr. O'Brien is old news.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    These same Celtic fans who thought Rivers was a "dolt" apparently love Jim O'Brien.

    So maybe it's just the Celtic fans who are wrong.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Irrelevent

    That pretty much sums it up. Pick at any one point and maybe the case sounds okay, but this was a culmination of a lot of things that really just need to be said or done. There is no way any of the vets over youth choices were right, simply because the teams didn't win anyway and you could have at least gained some experience, player interaction comfort, and confidence. None of the stuff to the press which included not only the "irrelevant" comment on a nice outing by Josh, but also the MIP discussion on Roy this year and the "AJ showed us he was good enough to play and now that we've seen that it makes sense to put him back on DNP".

    You can 3 ball and struggle on with less talent, but let that fall on them. Let them play poorly and get ripped, let them play AT ALL and it turns the finger from you to them. You can say to fans "I'm doing what I can, but you've seen these guys, there young and raw and maybe not ready to win seriously at the NBA level...all I can do is keep trying to coach them up because that's what I'm here for."

    JOB's job was EASY, or should have been. We all knew any coach was 100% F'd when it comes to W-L the first 2 years. Fans just wanted to not have criminal issues and whiners on the team anymore, that's all. JOB and Larry took care of that with almost no effort, it was one of the first things they'd resolved by the summer before season 2.

    From then on fans were locked into the idea of the long climb out with systematic player development full of the pains of growth and learning. All he had to do was do that, all he had to do was coach up some kids and let them/force them to work during NBA games so they'd develop. He didn't have to beat the Celtics or Lebron or the Lakers or even the Hawks. No one said "Dang, I thought this was a solid 4th seed team and he couldn't get them to win."

    If the coach was fired because of the W-L record that was the wrong reasons. It was how he handled every other item besides that. The W-L was the free pass.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Nobody has ever said we had a Lakers or Heat line-up here. It will be...it always has been...a young developing team with a few competent vets, with two fairly unambitious goals: continue to develop a young core, and make the playoffs. (It's the East, so that's not that ambitious.)

    I don't know if I buy the reports of JOB's supposed negative assesment of our playoff prospects (in his last interview with Bird), but it's been more and more obvious over the last few weeks that O'Brien's quirky rotations and near total lack of in-game intuition were factors (at some level) in our decline. I agree; a coach's influence is often overestimated. But the Pacers' playoff chances are a borderline proposition...we either end up just out of the playoffs, or just in. A few percentage points, two or three wins, are going to make a difference, looks like.

    We're not going to overhaul our offense to a dramatically different system. It's the middle of the season, and as the author points out, Vogel is an O'Brien man. But I like our chances with an O'Brien disciple who may actually be able to see and react to what is going on in front of him more quickly than his mentor.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Kegboy, it gets even worse IMO because of this one..
    Had the players quit on O’Brien, as they did Rick Carlisle, I would support the firing, as I did Carlisle’s. But I don’t think our guys ever stopped playing hard.
    So this guy supported firing Rick because JO, Tins, Harrison, Harrington....and who else, quit on him. Talk about backing the wrong horse.

    No one thought Danny quit on him, Jackson loved the dude and that's been proven by examples many times over, and Dun/Troy just freaking got here.

    What players quit on Rick but were reached by JOB, were turned around by JOB. What players did JOB get to play that Rick couldn't reach? Again, Dun and Troy at mid-season can't quit on a coach they just met with almost no practices even.


    Anyone who says "I supported firing a guy who surprised the league TWICE by taking teams well beyond expectations and each to an ECF because Tinsley, JO, Harrington and Ron didn't love him" is a nitwit, there's just no two ways about that. Those dudes, right down the line, are coach killers. None have gone on to save the NBA world or prove much worth beyond a team role filler or empty stat loader (Al). Ron had to freaking salvage his horrible season with a couple of playoff miracles in order to regain some kind of respect as a player.


    I'd rather have the coach that took Ron to the all-star game and got him a DPOY award and took a disaster to round 2 and has Dirk ripping through one of his finest seasons along with a list of "didn't you used to be great" players.

    Sheesh. It would be different if Rick had been terrible before or was bombing in Dallas. Winning 50 games with 3 different teams in 10 years is how you go on to be Larry Brown, Lenny Wilkins, Sloan, Jackson, etc.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    lol, Pacers_Chants.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    I gave O'Brien chance after chance to win me over, but as this season continued I had absolutely no hope that he was the right guy for the team. Yes there were injuries, but when the players tune you out, you obviously aren't the right guy anymore. Hearing some of the players' comments during the postgame (George and Hansbrough specifically) made me think they weren't too sad to see him go. He would not make good adjustments on the fly and took out players in the wrong situations. Yes, it's not all O'Brien's fault, but not having him here gives us a better chance to win than with him here. While I don't wish anyone to lose their job, he had to go. If you think he should've stayed, I'm sorry, but you don't know basketball.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    I think there is a huge difference between "being good little sheep", as the author says, and having eyes.

    Some may have formed "their" opinions by going by whats popular, but I'm sure many of the people who disliked his coaching made that decision on there own. It takes just as little thought to blame things on people being "sheep" as it does to be a sheep.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    I thoroughly read the piece, and I am dismissing it as nonsense.
    ...

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    It never ceases to amaze me how a well written and well intentioned author as Cornrows who can express complex thoughts in a coherent fashion can look at what has gone on with the Pacers and the undeniable dissatisfaction that has been expressed by the fanbase and then simultaneously belittle the viewpoints of the clear majority of fans, both casual and rabid alike, while primarily defending himself and another colleague (yes, count55 was an O'Brien supporter in my opinion despite occasionally saying that O'Brien might end up losing his "utility") even more than O'Brien himself.

    But, obviously, he has every right to his opinion, and we have the right to agree or disagree with it as we see fit and express ourselves accordingly, and choose whether or not to read his musings.

    I look forward to reading actual basketball opinions from Indy Cornrows in the future. This was not his best work. Also, hopefully, with the O'Brien negativity dying down, count55 will come back around here to add a divergent, statistics based viewpoint back into the mix here in an environment where statistics will not produce as skewed a result as they did under O'Brien.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    It never ceases to amaze me how a well written and well intentioned author as Cornrows ...
    FYI, Pacers_Chants on twitter wrote this novella.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    ...

    I thought this thread was going to be about Unclebuck.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    yeah Cornrows posted it, he didnt write it

    He did say he thought it was a great article though
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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    I cannot bare to think how O'Brien would have done if he coached the teams Rick did here. Anyone who wants to suggest that O'Brien is a better coach than Rick, for any reason, doesn't watch a Jim O'Brien coached team or a Rick Carlise coached team. It's night and day different.

    Look O'Brien is an average coach. If you give him players that fit his "system" they can get to the playoffs and all that. However being a system coach he was the worst possible coach for this team the past 2 1/2 years.

    Jim was fired because he was an underachiever especially with this years team. Plus he wasn't consistent with his messages in the media I can't even imagine what it was like for the players on this team to play here the past couple of years.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Quote Originally Posted by El Pacero View Post
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    FYI, Pacers_Chants on twitter wrote this novella.
    Sorry. Thanks for pointing out my oversight.

    I clicked the link and went to the site and didn't realize that it was under the fan posts section. I stand (actually sit) corrected.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Sorry. Thanks for pointing out my oversight.
    No apologies necessary bro. I was just pointing out it wasn't Cornrows so he wouldn't get blasted, although Cornrows did like it.

    The author really likes Tyler, so I wonder if this novella would change based on the comments from "Free Tyler" today. He is also still in love with Troy Murphy, and I still like the guy despite this.

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Obie handled the PF position poorly... By playing Josh there. What was our record then again?

    Ok article, not great.
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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Obie handled the PF position poorly... By playing Josh there. What was our record then again?

    Ok article, not great.
    Hey, wake up!! (In reference to your sig).

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Obie handled the PF position poorly... By playing Josh there. What was our record then again?

    Ok article, not great.
    the author is a Murphy fan LOL he thinks we are worse off cause we dont have Murphy

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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    First, conventional wisdom is conventional because it's usually correct. Popular sentiment is popular because it's usually correct. This article is a lot like Jim and people who attempt to use a few stats to explain the world. They are smart people who have no common sense and their conclusions are pure foolishness.

    Second, Truman and even Doc Rivers have nothing to do with the fact Jim had nearly 4 years to improve the record but it kept getting worse. It also doesn't excuse the overly critical statements about his players which the front office rightly called him on.

    BTW, I also like Jim O'Brien and the author needs to stop focusing on the fringe. The fact people want him fired badly doesn't mean we hate the man. We just think his performance has taken this team nowhere in the last couple years and there's solid proof he's lost this team, upset players and upset management. Enough!
    The fact the author wouldn't have fired Jim means the author doesn't want to see as many wins this season. If anything, the team has clearly gotten a breath of fresh air and a new attitude to finish the season. They may not tear it up the rest of the way, but only a Jim homer would think we are better off this year with him at the helm.

    Fired too quickly? "As soon as the team starts struggling" This is pure foolishness. It's been nearly 4 years and the man's record was even worse than last year which was worse than the previous year....all with supposedly more talent.

    "The front office tailored the roster to Jim's system". Are you kidding me? Hibbert is not built for this system. Josh and Tyler are NOT 3 point shooting bigs. Collison is a pick and roll PG. I suppose Granger's been turned into a chucker. More great moves.

    "TJ and Murphy held in contempt" Ask Jersey dude. 34 minutes of Troy is 34 more minutes than he's getting now, which is about right.

    "NBA's best offenses"? Why no playoffs then? Any team can score points with playground ball chucking. I suppose they did get more practice at chucking than other teams...but that didn't translate to much success. Besides the last two years have been horrific and more than enough time to make this call.

    ...and listening to Frank Vogel was a breath of fresh air. Don't ridicule the man. He's trying to be positive and has a big job on his hands. A big clean-up job.
    Sure, Jim did ok the first couple years but don't get carried away. He forced a chuck ball system on a team that was not designed like his beloved Boston Celtics with an athletic C in Tony Battie and a perimeter shooter like is buddy Walter McCarty at the 4. That's a big reason his system never worked here and any child should be able to see that. He has been bad in more ways than one the last couple years and has mismanaged this team on the court and to the press...and that's why he's gone.

    Good riddance Jim and welcome coach Vogel!

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  41. #25
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    Default Re: O'Brien's most famous supporter comments on firing

    Quote Originally Posted by Young View Post
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    I cannot bare to think how O'Brien would have done if he coached the teams Rick did here. Anyone who wants to suggest that O'Brien is a better coach than Rick, for any reason, doesn't watch a Jim O'Brien coached team or a Rick Carlise coached team. It's night and day different.

    Look O'Brien is an average coach. If you give him players that fit his "system" they can get to the playoffs and all that. However being a system coach he was the worst possible coach for this team the past 2 1/2 years.

    Jim was fired because he was an underachiever especially with this years team. Plus he wasn't consistent with his messages in the media I can't even imagine what it was like for the players on this team to play here the past couple of years.
    All correct. Rick coached a decimated and distracted team to a better record than Jim did this past year. Britton Johnson? Are you kidding?

    Jim's market value is not high and no foolish article regardless of how positive it might be is going to change that fact.

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