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Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

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  • #46
    Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
    Wow...REALLY ? He had two steals at least.

    I'm really starting to believe that JOB expects ALL the players to have All-Star performances every night. Someone needs to tell JOB that's not a possible reality for Indiana, and he needs to work with what he got. As a player, comments like that would make me want to amack the hell out of my coach.
    I could be wrong....but having 2 steals doesn't translate into good defense.

    I didn't watch the game, but looking at PGs defense objectively....did he look lost on defense?

    I have no problem with J'OB calling out the Player if they played horribly.....I expect a rookie player to make mistakes....what I expect and hope is that he doesn't bench him permanently during the course of the game or the season while giving him a chance to learn from the mistake....specifically given minutes to redeem himself.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    • #47
      Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

      Originally posted by CableKC View Post
      I could be wrong....but having 2 steals doesn't translate into good defense.

      I didn't watch the game, but looking at PGs defense objectively....did he look lost on defense?

      I have no problem with J'OB calling out the Player if they played horribly.....I expect a rookie player to make mistakes....what I expect and hope is that he doesn't bench him permanently during the course of the game or the season while giving him a chance to learn from the mistake....specifically given minutes to redeem himself.
      He got caught ball-gawking twice. Other than that Joe Johnson hit ridiculous shots that not even All Star level players have any business hitting.

      Of course he didn't complain about how James Posey got sodomized by Josh Smith on offense.
      We need better than solid. No JJ Redicks, Andray Blatche, Mike Dunleavy type guys to have big roles on our team.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

        He didn't play horribly. That's the problem with Jim's comment.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

          Originally posted by spazzxb View Post
          I am in favor of that as well, but it means George sits.
          No it doesn't.

          48 minutes of SF play - 36 for Danny, 12 for Paul

          48 minutes of SG play - 30 for Rush, 18 for Dun

          Holy crap, it's a miracle, I found a way to play them all.


          Josh starts for 26-28, Tyler off the bench for 22-20, Tyler likes to take a lot of shots anyway so he works well as a main scorer while not playing as much with Roy, Danny, Rush and Collison. Bench scorers are the fresh off the bench Dun and Tyler, and as George finds his game as well.

          Roy has normal 34 minute type games, Foster picks up the other 14 which works well post-injury/age.

          FOUL TROUBLE means you turn to someone like Posey or Solo, and even then you can easily stretch the minutes of all those other guys.

          And at this point PG should be Collison 28-36 minutes depending on how he has it going, with PRICE getting at least 10-12. So some nights you can still run Ford out there a little bit.



          Or put Josh in street clothes for the 2nd game on the road of a back to back because rest is no issue and the team is so much better this way...if losing by 19 is what we consider "better"

          Sorry for the derail, and the O'Brien bash.
          It's a thread about Josh's playing time/role. JOB is intricately, insanely intertwined with that. Larry Brown is the only other coach that comes to mind when talking about random, nonsense benchings or trashing to the press. And I'm about to bump that thread to in order to make this point.
          Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-09-2011, 02:11 PM.

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          • #50
            Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

            Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
            They are close to equal at blocking or altering shots IMO...which I didn't think would be true.

            .
            I haven't watched the last two games, but I find this very hard to believe. Josh is and always will be more of a factor as a shot blocker.

            If we are going small with Danny playing minutes at the backup 4 spot (which means George is in the rotation), I think Josh should be getting minutes at the backup 5 when Foster can't go due to health. I can see the benefit of a lineup like this...

            Collison/TJ
            Dunleavy/Rush
            Granger/George
            Hansbrough/Granger/Mcbob
            Hibbert/Foster/Mcbob

            However, James Posey should never play over Josh Mcroberts (excepting end of game situations where we need a three). Josh's numbers are better across the board, and despite how good Posey's team defense is, it is not enough to negate the constant mismatches we are playing with Posey at the four.

            It really wouldn't be a question with a sane coach, Josh is averaging more Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Better FG%, better 3 point FG% (yes, thats right) Both play roughly 20 minutes per game. Posey has not shot well enough to justify being on the floor. But he is a vet, and despite often being over matched at the four, he always stands in the right spot, and thats all that matters to this coach.
            Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 01-09-2011, 02:27 PM.
            "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

            - ilive4sports

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            • #51
              Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

              Originally posted by Shabazz View Post
              Do you really think you would have been that close to beating the Spurs, the team with the best record in the league, if McRoberts had been your starting PF?
              Nope. With Josh starting the only games you can win are against the Lakers in LA or the Heat in Miami.

              But home with 4 days off and the Spurs on their 3rd game that week of a East road trip...clearly your only hope is to bench Josh and take Tyler from 0 mpg to 36.


              This post is irrational and IMO blatantly anti-Josh, possibly out of the irrational POV that being pro-Tyler means you have to be anti-Josh or vice versa.

              I was anti-drafting Tyler and big on playing Josh and I have been converted to playing Tyler also. There is no good reason for this to be an "either or". None of the results suggest that Josh has been anything less than Tyler this year.

              He's shot better, rebounded nearly as well (yes, the numbers say he has), passed very well (he's the top Assist guy p36 after the 3 PGs), gets more steals and blocks than Tyler...but somehow a person can see this and say "Tyler is a must play, Josh is ruining the team". That's not rational and the facts do not support it.

              Tyler and Josh have both been able to add something to the game with very similar results via different methods.


              By the way, if Tyler was the savior then why didn't they almost beat the Hawks? Oh yeah, because CIRCUMSTANCES of the schedule weren't so favorable last night.

              This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.

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              • #52
                Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                My belief on Josh is that he does not have significant upside offensively. I think Josh "is what he is" if you can pardon the expression. He can become a little more efficient, but I think that's about all he's going to gain. But, that's probably okay considering his role as a facilitator.
                Tyler is older. Tyler played heavy minutes at UNC still learning the game while Josh mistakingly came out too early and got stuck getting almost no PT or development the last 3 years. Tyler was on his way to being handed a lot more minutes than Josh last year even while he was shooting sub 40% from the PF position, making him one of the worst (maybe THE worst) shooting PF in the NBA (Tyler I mean).

                So frankly I don't see where the upside is in favor of Tyler. I put this out pre-draft, statistically Tyler DID NOT CHANGE his final 3 years at UNC. His rebounding went down his senior year.

                At the time I contrasted this with guys like Duncan or Griffin who did show increases when they stayed. They didn't just keep doing more of the same. They were learning and improving.

                Now I didn't make Josh leave Duke and it's not just hindsight to say that's a dumb thing to do IMO. I'm always pro-stay in college for all but the most polished and ready players. You'll get more PT and time to mature playing against other KIDS rather than 30 year old men.

                Being 20 in a rich man's world with the partying and attitudes is not conducive to growth. Neither is not getting quality minutes of highly competitive basketball, especially at a program like Duke.

                But that's in the past, and I'd say it indicates that it's Josh that's more likely to mature his game than Tyler. Tyler stayed at UNC to become what he is. His success even seems to be coming in the same form that he had it in college - high motor, hustle, draw tons of FTAs.



                In all honesty, I don't believe either player is going to be our long-term starting PF. More than likely, they are both stop gaps until we find that player. But, if I had to say which one is more likely to become a true starting PF, I would have to go with Tyler, even though he would have to absorb part of Josh's fundamental traits to become that player.
                Going backward I still wouldn't have drafted Tyler simply because I would have let Josh fill that role (backup PF) and traded down. Holiday, Chase, Sam Young, and definitely Blair "for free in the 2nd round" were all targets I would have gone for in that draft, just due to the roster situation.

                I also wouldn't have gone with George with Rush and Danny here, but Bird did.

                So with George on the team and showing pretty solid athletic promise, it would be very tempting to move Danny for Kevin Love as the PF solution. Or if I thought we could trust his attitude I'd be all for making Zach Randolph the FA signing next year.

                But somehow it would all seem like a bit of a waste to not take advantage of getting Josh as a throw-in, allowing you to do something else with your next picks/cap space. You'd have to trade Tyler or Josh, and by not SHOWCASING JOSH with 36 mpg (or have I misunderstood the insane pro-Tyler/Ford PT arguments) you don't get a lot of trade value with Josh.

                In short, I'm not adverse to upgrading at PF, but I this is tricky given the current situation. Plus I'm one of those guys in the "let's not make moves till we try this with another coach" camp. I mean what if Coach X is brought in, uses the roster in the ways that most of us suggest, and we have nice results from it? Then we'd be glad we didn't pull the trigger prematurely, especially when we'd be dealing from a position of weakness in terms of trade chips (other than Danny).
                Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-09-2011, 02:44 PM.

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                • #53
                  Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                  Originally posted by hoops_guy View Post
                  Of course he didn't complain about how James Posey got sodomized by Josh Smith on offense.
                  I forgot about this. To illustrate this I went to the play by play, because I remembered exactly when it happened, because I was complaining about it to a buddy.

                  From the play by play:

                  Smith Rebound (Off:3 Def:6) 02:54
                  Smith Putback Slam Dunk Shot: Made 02:54
                  Smith Running Layup Shot: Made 02:21
                  Smith Free Throw 1 of 1 (22 PTS) 02:21
                  Smith 3pt Shot: Made 01:51
                  Smith Jump Shot: Made 01:10
                  The result was bad, and it looked bad. 10 points in 2 minutes. Hilarious.

                  .
                  Last edited by xBulletproof; 01-09-2011, 03:08 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                    Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                    Assuming Tyler can stay relatively consistent (and that goes for more than a few games, I'm talking 10+ games), I agree with this.

                    I'd even say use Jeff and Josh at the backup 5, even when Josh is playing backup 4. He should play often.
                    I've always liked both of these players (Josh and Tyler). But Tyler can take over a game...at both ends of the floor. Not just once a year, but maybe once a week...and not just on offense. Dude has quick hands and rips the ball away from players...and as he has gotten smarter, I've seen he can carve out space and grab tough boards. There are a lot of little things that Tyler can do because he plays with force.

                    ....so yes, I am hoping Josh is the backup...not because I don't like Josh...but because I am also hoping that Tyler becomes more consistent with more minutes.

                    Have a couple other comments too. I stated that I thought Tyler blocked shots about as well as Josh. I think I'll take that one back. I think Tyler's a lot more effective defensively, including blocking shots, than most people may have expected....and I perhaps got carried away a bit on that point. The short of it is, I think Tyler is a lot better defensively than I expected to go along with a more explosive offensive game.

                    The other issue that has been raised is about potential and improvement. Some think Josh has more room to improve. I think in theory he does, but I don't see as much natural skill, other than passing the ball. I see an athlete who may become a solid defender and a good facilitator on offense. With Tyler, I see a guy who has dramatically improved his game from just last year. The knock on him last year was FG%. He has improved that nearly 10% simply from playing much smarter basketball. It's really been a phenomenal adjustment IMO.

                    At bottom, I think Tyler's defense + offense has more potential to be greater than Josh's...but the jury is still out on this one.
                    Last edited by BlueNGold; 01-09-2011, 03:37 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                      Where does McRoberts fit in, if Tyler starts?

                      Apparently he doesn't, since he instantly goes from starting to 13th man and possibly never playing again........ or til @sshat decides on a new brilliant strategy.
                      "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG" - Carol "The Walking Dead"

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                      • #56
                        Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                        Given his post count and timing of his visit to our boards This guy seems to be more of a Tyler fan than a pacers fan. I wouldn't bother trying to persuade him about whats good for the team. He reminds me a lot of the poster Phsyco T. (who isn't here anymore). Also the NC/ Duke thing needs to be differentiated from the nba Josh and Tyler comparisons because the college fans turn this debate into one big cluster____.

                        Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                        Nope. With Josh starting the only games you can win are against the Lakers in LA or the Heat in Miami.

                        But home with 4 days off and the Spurs on their 3rd game that week of a East road trip...clearly your only hope is to bench Josh and take Tyler from 0 mpg to 36.


                        This post is irrational and IMO blatantly anti-Josh, possibly out of the irrational POV that being pro-Tyler means you have to be anti-Josh or vice versa.

                        I was anti-drafting Tyler and big on playing Josh and I have been converted to playing Tyler also. There is no good reason for this to be an "either or". None of the results suggest that Josh has been anything less than Tyler this year.

                        He's shot better, rebounded nearly as well (yes, the numbers say he has), passed very well (he's the top Assist guy p36 after the 3 PGs), gets more steals and blocks than Tyler...but somehow a person can see this and say "Tyler is a must play, Josh is ruining the team". That's not rational and the facts do not support it.

                        Tyler and Josh have both been able to add something to the game with very similar results via different methods.


                        By the way, if Tyler was the savior then why didn't they almost beat the Hawks? Oh yeah, because CIRCUMSTANCES of the schedule weren't so favorable last night.

                        This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.
                        Last edited by spazzxb; 01-09-2011, 04:32 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                          Originally posted by Shabazz View Post
                          I don't know what to think about McRoberts. Hansbrough owned McRoberts every single time they played in college. McRoberts has never been a very physical player and was bit of a basket case when I watched him play. It seems like he has matured a lot since then.

                          But he should have never been starting at PF while the better player sat at the end of the bench.
                          I think it depends on what your definition of a better player is. I think it's a no brainer that Hansbrough looked better in college and certainly if they're both the #1 option on their team (which they were for mcroberts 2nd year).

                          Hansbrough's strength is the mid range jumper and giving him the ball in a face up situation. But, should he be a high option on offense on a decent team? My answer would be no.

                          McRoberts is a better athlete, shot blocker, passer, long range shooter, and probably a better defender in most situations. I think they're close in rebounding. You certainly don't want to give him the ball in isolation and say 'go make something happen' because he can't create for himself and he's a good passer from the high post/3 point line, but not off the dribble.

                          So, if you have better options on offense than throwing the ball to Tyler, then I think you're better served with McRoberts, who can give you more things without being an option on offense. Then have Tyler come in as a guy off the bench to give you energy and offense against bench players where he's going to be more effective.

                          But, there's only 1 ball, do you want to throw it to Tyler over Granger, Hibbert, Dunleavy/Rush, Collison?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                            I'm starting to think McRoberts may not be on the team next season. If Jim isn't retained, I don't see anything other than dunking that would qualify McRoberts to be on an NBA roster, unless he starts shooting the three better.

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                            • #59
                              Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                              Originally posted by flox View Post
                              I'm starting to think McRoberts may not be on the team next season. If Jim isn't retained, I don't see anything other than dunking that would qualify McRoberts to be on an NBA roster, unless he starts shooting the three better.
                              I'll let Seth expand on this....but my initial response is that he has some solid passing skills for a Big Man and good offensive awareness. To me, he is a good enough Player to be considered IMHO a "1st Big Man off the Bench / Emergency Starter" on any Team...essentially a 7th/8th Man rotational Player.
                              Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                              • #60
                                Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

                                i think flox is right. josh was given the first third of the season to show his stuff, it appears that it is now tyler's turn. but pacers big rotation is so weak, he will probably get another shot at it when tyler or jeff plays poorly.

                                but it looks like solo and josh are the 'in case of fire break glass' club.

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