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Thread: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Foster is a far better defensive player than Josh and I like him backing up Roy.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    From the Tyler thread I posted their per36.

    Josh is outshooting Tyler overeall, and moreso when you consider his 3PMs too (or was before tonight, I'll have to see the added impact)

    Josh and Tyler are neck and neck in rebounding per 36, both around 9.1-9.2. Posey runs around 6.0 for comparison.

    Josh blocks more shots, period. This isn't as close.

    Josh leads in steals as well.

    Tyler crushes in FTAs and leads the team too.


    And then it has to just lean on opinion when it comes to picks and screens, but I strongly suggest that if you want to see Dunleavy open for a jumper just put Josh on the same side of the court with Dun while the ball works on the other side. Next thing Dun's defender knows he's looking at a chest full of Josh while Dun catches the pass for the wide open shot.

    Tyler's picks are too clean to be really disruptive. He's turning to get clear of the contact in order to be ready to take the jumper. He doesn't really PnR all that well IMO, not that I've seen so far. It's all about the PnPop for him. If he's hitting the shot then that's great, but I don't think he frees the ball up as well as Josh who tends to work to maintain contact longer.


    Like Eleazar said - different games for different situations. Neither guy warrants a DNP and neither has all year.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    If you can get past your fanboyism...
    That's kinda becoming a popular insulting word with you, isn't it?

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Josh should be Tyler's backup.

    Jeff is fine as Roy's backup.
    Assuming Tyler can stay relatively consistent (and that goes for more than a few games, I'm talking 10+ games), I agree with this.

    I'd even say use Jeff and Josh at the backup 5, even when Josh is playing backup 4. He should play often.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    From the Tyler thread I posted their per36....

    Tyler crushes in FTAs and leads the team too.

    And then it has to just lean on opinion when it comes to picks and screens, but I strongly suggest that if you want to see Dunleavy open for a jumper just put Josh on the same side of the court with Dun while the ball works on the other side. Next thing Dun's defender knows he's looking at a chest full of Josh while Dun catches the pass for the wide open shot.

    Tyler's picks are too clean to be really disruptive. He's turning to get clear of the contact in order to be ready to take the jumper. He doesn't really PnR all that well IMO, not that I've seen so far. It's all about the PnPop for him. If he's hitting the shot then that's great, but I don't think he frees the ball up as well as Josh who tends to work to maintain contact longer.
    There is a lot of truth in what you say.

    Other stats that I like are adjusted FG% and points per shot. Josh kills Tyler in AFG% 53% to 43%, but Tyler has an advantage in PPS 1.267 to 1.216. An overall consideration of these two stats would probably result in an edge for Josh as well.

    You raise very good points regarding Josh's role in weakside screening.

    My belief on Josh is that he does not have significant upside offensively. I think Josh "is what he is" if you can pardon the expression. He can become a little more efficient, but I think that's about all he's going to gain. But, that's probably okay considering his role as a facilitator.

    Josh is a better shot blocker and certainly can be an above the rim player, but I believe that Tyler is a better interior position player and "banger". It is very obvious that Tyler's physical play does get him to the line much better than Josh, or better than any other Pacer for that matter. I believe this is a talent that we cannot overlook. If you are able to get a couple of fouls on one or both of the opponent's big men in Q1, you are usually playing at an advantage, at least through the end of the quarter or possibly throughout the first half.

    I think Josh has had his chance. It's not that he's done a poor job with it, but because of Hibbert's decline, JOB is looking for more offensive production from his frontcourt. I would like to see Tyler get the nod as the starter for the next few games. I would also like to see if Tyler gets better in sync with the wing players to determine whether his PnR and PnP games will get more refined.

    In all honesty, I don't believe either player is going to be our long-term starting PF. More than likely, they are both stop gaps until we find that player. But, if I had to say which one is more likely to become a true starting PF, I would have to go with Tyler, even though he would have to absorb part of Josh's fundamental traits to become that player.

    This is a definite reversal for me because I have been so certain that Hansbrough had a one way ticket out of here and that the Pacers might even consider rewarding Josh with a modest contract this summer.

    After seeing Tyler play, I have to admit that I have really missed a player for the Pacers with such physical play and interior fortitude. If we could combine the two players games into one player, we would end up with a pretty decent player who still did not fully have the PnR skills that Collison needs at PF and we would still need a better defensive presence to pair with Hibbert.

    It is important to fully evaluate all of our young players. That is why I would like to see Tyler get his opportunity with the starters. The Pacers need to know if they just need a starting PF for next season. Or, do they need both a starter and a decent backup?
    Last edited by beast23; 01-08-2011 at 02:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    The Title of this thread should be changed to:

    Where does Posey and Solo fit in; if Tyler, Foster and McBob gets more minutes?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Foster is a far better defensive player than Josh and I like him backing up Roy.
    If we could settle on a Hibbert/McBob/Foster/Hansbrough PF/C rotation, I could care less who backs up who....I'd be totally happy if JO'B finally decides to figure out which combination would produce the best chemistry in the Frontcourt.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    This really shouldn't be Josh vs Hans

    Both should play.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Josh is big and athletic enough to play both positions...

    I am really frustrated that he did not play last night. But then again he is slowly transforming into foster v2.

    The thing that separates tyler and him is tyler simply has confidence in his game. When tyler gets the ball with a foot of space he is looking to score. Or he is looking to punsih the defense by driving to the rim.

    When josh gets the ball with a foot of room. He freezes. He looks left. He looks right. Then its like a hot potato and he throws it to someone else. He is useless on offense unless he is simply running a fast break.

    This does not mean that he cannot play like tyler though. If mcroberts would just trust his dribble and look to score he would easily average 10ppg. HE has the dribble to get to the rim. He has the athleticism to jump over other defenders. I just wonder when he will get the attitude that he needs.

  14. #35

    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    last night, i thought josh would not get much playing time unless jeff or tyler started playing poorly. changed my mind overnight i guess.

    expect that josh will gets minutes against guys that JOB thinks he can defend. jmo, but josh is an ok defender, but not a good one. there are guys that he can defend in the post and guys he cannot. the main reason josh didn't get any play vs the spurs is they are too big and too strong for josh to handle. be interesting to see what happens against ATL tonight. josh has shown little ability to defend either horford or smith, but jeff is on the 2nd night of a back to back. not sure he can physically play a lot of minutes tonight. so it is josh and solo to take up the slack. if jeff can play, he will get minutes. otherwise, solo backs up roy and josh takes the backup 4. until/unless jsoh shows he cannot defend josh smith.

    in other words, josh's appearences will be situational.

  15. #36

    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    I hate to see this turned into a Tyler versus Josh thing. I am high on them both but they do bring different things to the game. I'd like to see more Josh, Hibbert, and Tyler at the same time. They ought to own the boards together most of the time.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    The Title of this thread should be changed to:

    Where does Posey and Solo fit in; if Tyler, Foster and McBob gets more minutes?
    Posey ought to fit in just where he did last night. Need a last second three give him a shot otherwise enjoy retirement on the bench at an income most of us can only dream about. Easy a money as you will ever make.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerHound View Post
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    I hate to see this turned into a Tyler versus Josh thing. I am high on them both but they do bring different things to the game. I'd like to see more Josh, Hibbert, and Tyler at the same time. They ought to own the boards together most of the time.
    there is a subplot of tyler vs jeff on the team this year. jmo, but tyler and josh are competing for the backup PF job on next years team. since there are two guys and only one spot, it makes it kind of a zero sum game.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    I like both players, and each bring different elements to the team. Depending on the Coach, each player could be an asset.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Brilliance by O'Brien, as usual. First, McRoberts is a DNP-CD after being a starter. Then, on the second night of a back to back, he is made inactive...just absolutely brilliant.

    http://www.nba.com/games/20110108/IN...html#nbaGIlive

    Pacers-Hawks notebook


    By Matt Winkeljohn, for NBA.com
    Posted Saturday January 8, 2011 11:42PM
    THE FACTS: The Hawks had five players hit double figures in scoring -- by the middle of the third quarter -- and routed the visiting Pacers 108-93 Saturday night, making 11 3-pointers as Josh Smith led the way with 27 points, 10 rebounds, six assists and two blocked shots. Atlanta's ninth straight win over Indiana was tight in the first half, which ended with the Hawks up 55-50. A 29-18 scoring bulge in the third quarter rendered the rest of the game moot. Joe Johnson added 24 points and Jamal Crawford 20 in the Hawks' sixth win in the last seven games. Danny Granger scored 16 for the Pacers, who never led while losing their third straight and falling for the sixth time in seven outings.

    QUOTABLE: "It's fun; we're getting everybody involved. Jamal is starting to play like himself again ... Joe as well."
    -- Hawks center-forward Al Horford, who had 14 points, 10 rebounds and six assists.

    THE STAT: 62.5 -- Atlanta's Johnson (3-for-5), Crawford (3-for-5) and Mike Bibby (4-for-6) made 62.5 percent of their combined 3-points shots (10-for-16 on a night when Atlanta went 11-for-22).

    TURNING POINT: Neither team shot well in the third quarter (Indiana made eight of 24 field goals, Atlanta nine of 25), but the Hawks were 4-for-7 on 3-pointers in the period (Indiana made one trey in the period) and outscored the Pacers by six at the free-throw line in the third while pushing their lead to as high as 20 points.

    QUOTABLE II: "We are lacking an inside attack right now, and it's just stifling us. [The Hawks] have a great inside attack, they have a great spacing attack, they have terrific post one-on-one players, they're terrific face-up one-on-one players, and that's with athletes that are better than the athletes that we have."
    -- Pacers coach Jim O'Brien, whose team was actually out-scored by a modest 32-28 margin in the paint.

    HOT: Atlanta's Smith and Bibby carried the action in the third quarter, combining for 26 of the Hawks' 29 points. Smith scored 14 points on 5-for-9 shooting and hit all three of his free throws, and Bibby went 3-for-4, hitting three treys, and added three free throws as well for 12 of his 15 points in the quarter. ... Hawks sub Jamal Crawford made 10 of 19 shots, and three of five 3-pointers, to continue a roll. In the past five games, he has averaged 25.8 points, making 40 of 78 shots (51.3 percent) and 15 of 30 3-pointers (50 percent). ... Joe Johnson has averaged 27.5 points over the past four after scoring 24 Saturday. He scored 12 in the fourth quarter Saturday.

    NOT: The Pacers have lost nine straight games on the road, and eight straight in Atlanta, dating to Dec. 22, 2006. ... O'Brien continues to be disappointed in the offense of center Roy Hibbert. He scored eight points Saturday on 3-for-8 shooting as he returned to the starting lineup one night after scoring 10 off the bench in a loss to San Antonio in which he was 5-for-17. ... Indy's James Posey has made just four of 19 shots over the past five games, including three of 18 3-pointers. He's attempted only one non-trey in that time, and he made it Saturday as he went 2-for-6 (1-for-4 on treys).

    QUOTABLE III: "It sucks right now."
    -- Pacers forward Danny Granger, when asked about Indiana's effort.


    ROOKIE WATCH: Pacers youngster Paul George scored eight of his 10 points in the fourth quarter, when he also grabbed two of his six rebounds. Yet when Indianapolis coach Jim O'Brien was asked if he was encouraged by the way the rookie forward played in the fourth quarter, he said, "No. He played terrible defense."

    NOTABLE: Atlanta reserve guard Jeff Teague left the game in the second quarter with a contusion to his right hand, and did not return. ... Atlanta small forward Marvin Williams missed his fifth straight game with a back contusion.

    UP NEXT: For the Pacers, Tuesday at Philadelphia, Wednesday vs. Dallas, Friday vs. Chicago. For the Hawks, Tuesday vs. Milwaukee, Wednesday @ Toronto, Saturday vs. Houston
    Apparently, player frustration is mounting ever higher, especially after seeing in another thread that Hibbert is now seeking help from a sports psychologist.

    McRoberts, Hansbrough, and Hibbert should be a primary three man rotation at the 4/5, with Foster helping in limited minutes. Instead, we are going smaller.

    Get rid of O'Brien, now. It is getting ridiculous.

    Sorry for the derail, and the O'Brien bash.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    ROOKIE WATCH: Pacers youngster Paul George scored eight of his 10 points in the fourth quarter, when he also grabbed two of his six rebounds. Yet when Indianapolis coach Jim O'Brien was asked if he was encouraged by the way the rookie forward played in the fourth quarter, he said, "No. He played terrible defense."
    Wow...REALLY ? He had two steals at least.

    I'm really starting to believe that JOB expects ALL the players to have All-Star performances every night. Someone needs to tell JOB that's not a possible reality for Indiana, and he needs to work with what he got. As a player, comments like that would make me want to amack the hell out of my coach.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    This really shouldn't be Josh vs Hans

    Both should play.
    This^^^ Why not have a two headed monster that both bring something to the table?
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetime’s worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Wow...REALLY ? He had two steals at least.

    I'm really starting to believe that JOB expects ALL the players to have All-Star performances every night. Someone needs to tell JOB that's not a possible reality for Indiana, and he needs to work with what he got. As a player, comments like that would make me want to amack the hell out of my coach.
    I watch the game and Paul didnt play bad defense he got burned two times that were his fault. But he played good defense on J.J for the most part but he made a couple really tuff shots.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    I watch the game and Paul didnt play bad defense he got burned two times that were his fault. But he played good defense on J.J for the most part but he made a couple really tuff shots.
    That's what I thought I saw, too.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Yeah, until he got caught ball gawking I thought he was giving it to Joe. I was enjoying him getting the challenge, and getting to watch it.

    I don't care what JOB says, minus 2 mistakes, it was pretty good defense.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Wow...REALLY ? He had two steals at least.

    I'm really starting to believe that JOB expects ALL the players to have All-Star performances every night. Someone needs to tell JOB that's not a possible reality for Indiana, and he needs to work with what he got. As a player, comments like that would make me want to amack the hell out of my coach.
    I could be wrong....but having 2 steals doesn't translate into good defense.

    I didn't watch the game, but looking at PGs defense objectively....did he look lost on defense?

    I have no problem with J'OB calling out the Player if they played horribly.....I expect a rookie player to make mistakes....what I expect and hope is that he doesn't bench him permanently during the course of the game or the season while giving him a chance to learn from the mistake....specifically given minutes to redeem himself.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I could be wrong....but having 2 steals doesn't translate into good defense.

    I didn't watch the game, but looking at PGs defense objectively....did he look lost on defense?

    I have no problem with J'OB calling out the Player if they played horribly.....I expect a rookie player to make mistakes....what I expect and hope is that he doesn't bench him permanently during the course of the game or the season while giving him a chance to learn from the mistake....specifically given minutes to redeem himself.
    He got caught ball-gawking twice. Other than that Joe Johnson hit ridiculous shots that not even All Star level players have any business hitting.

    Of course he didn't complain about how James Posey got sodomized by Josh Smith on offense.
    We need better than solid. No JJ Redicks, Andray Blatche, Mike Dunleavy type guys to have big roles on our team.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    He didn't play horribly. That's the problem with Jim's comment.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    I am in favor of that as well, but it means George sits.
    No it doesn't.

    48 minutes of SF play - 36 for Danny, 12 for Paul

    48 minutes of SG play - 30 for Rush, 18 for Dun

    Holy crap, it's a miracle, I found a way to play them all.


    Josh starts for 26-28, Tyler off the bench for 22-20, Tyler likes to take a lot of shots anyway so he works well as a main scorer while not playing as much with Roy, Danny, Rush and Collison. Bench scorers are the fresh off the bench Dun and Tyler, and as George finds his game as well.

    Roy has normal 34 minute type games, Foster picks up the other 14 which works well post-injury/age.

    FOUL TROUBLE means you turn to someone like Posey or Solo, and even then you can easily stretch the minutes of all those other guys.

    And at this point PG should be Collison 28-36 minutes depending on how he has it going, with PRICE getting at least 10-12. So some nights you can still run Ford out there a little bit.



    Or put Josh in street clothes for the 2nd game on the road of a back to back because rest is no issue and the team is so much better this way...if losing by 19 is what we consider "better"

    Sorry for the derail, and the O'Brien bash.
    It's a thread about Josh's playing time/role. JOB is intricately, insanely intertwined with that. Larry Brown is the only other coach that comes to mind when talking about random, nonsense benchings or trashing to the press. And I'm about to bump that thread to in order to make this point.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-09-2011 at 02:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Where does Mcroberts fit in, if tyler starts?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    They are close to equal at blocking or altering shots IMO...which I didn't think would be true.

    .
    I haven't watched the last two games, but I find this very hard to believe. Josh is and always will be more of a factor as a shot blocker.

    If we are going small with Danny playing minutes at the backup 4 spot (which means George is in the rotation), I think Josh should be getting minutes at the backup 5 when Foster can't go due to health. I can see the benefit of a lineup like this...

    Collison/TJ
    Dunleavy/Rush
    Granger/George
    Hansbrough/Granger/Mcbob
    Hibbert/Foster/Mcbob

    However, James Posey should never play over Josh Mcroberts (excepting end of game situations where we need a three). Josh's numbers are better across the board, and despite how good Posey's team defense is, it is not enough to negate the constant mismatches we are playing with Posey at the four.

    It really wouldn't be a question with a sane coach, Josh is averaging more Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Better FG%, better 3 point FG% (yes, thats right) Both play roughly 20 minutes per game. Posey has not shot well enough to justify being on the floor. But he is a vet, and despite often being over matched at the four, he always stands in the right spot, and thats all that matters to this coach.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 01-09-2011 at 02:27 PM.
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