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Thread: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    But is that because they are big market teams or lucky/fortunate to get the players.

    I mean if Jordan had gone to the Blazers (who had a chance to draft him) they would have IMO won as many titles as the Bulls did.

    I'm not suggesting that big maket dooesn't help, but I don't think you can suggest teams have won titles because they are big market teams. It is true just by the nature of the NBA that very few different teams win the NBA title. And teams tend to win again and again while they have the superstar players.
    Big Market teams have an advantage that wins titles. Here is just a small list. I will start from the bottom up.

    1. Players- Do you think O'Neal leaves Orlando to go to the Bucks. No, he goes to the Lakers for good reason. Storied franchise in a big market. Players often want to play in a big markets. Kobe agent even said playing for the Hornets wasn't a possibility.

    3. Scouting - Do you think each team has the same pay role for scouting NBA talent? Which job is better. I am a scout for the Pacers or I am a scout for the Boston Celtics? Which one recruits better scouts? Do you think the Lakers would get rid of their entire amateur scouting staff like the Grizzlies did?

    2. Coaches- Do you think Phil Jackson comes out of retirement in 1998 to coach the Sonics. Of course not.

    3. GM's/Presidents - Do you think Danny Ainge pulls off the Ray Allen/KG trade if he is in Sacramento. Do you think Jerry West builds the 80's Lakers in Memphis. He tried and he didn't.

    4. Owners - Big Market owners time and again appease their superstars. Kobe wants to be traded and they say no and make the changes to win titles. Paul Pierce demands a trade and Ainge comes through.

    I am not saying just becasue you are in a Big Market you will win a lot NBA titles but I am saying that history seems to be repeating itself a little too often for me to act like the market isn't a big factor.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-04-2011 at 05:05 PM.

  2. #52

    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    this is a load of nonsense

    every team must represent their city well

    especially the indiana pacers

    indiana has such a rich basketball history and the pacers need to represent it better and make the playoffs

    we play one of the nicest arenas

    the low attendance definitly doesnt resemble the love for the pacers and basketball like it should but that ties in to this team sucking

    no one wants to attend games for a bad team

    once we're a winning team again then people will come out

    indy loves its teams to win
    In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    I agree with Danny. I had brought this point up a few years back...

    If the pacers were to offer an all star level FA a max deal and say the laker,knicks or any other big market team were to make a lower offer, i'd say 95% of the time the FA would take less money. Because if anything they can always recoup what they left in Indiana plus several more millions in endorsements in a larger market. Sad but true.
    LoneGranger33 said
    Agreed. As the members of Guns and Roses once said, "every rose has its thorn".

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
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    I agree with Danny. I had brought this point up a few years back...

    If the pacers were to offer an all star level FA a max deal and say the laker,knicks or any other big market team were to make a lower offer, i'd say 95% of the time the FA would take less money. Because if anything they can always recoup what they left in Indiana plus several more millions in endorsements in a larger market. Sad but true.
    This is more true for the all-star level players below the top 5 players in the league. The very cream of the crop could play for Anchorage and they'd still get shoe deals. For example, Lebron in Cleveland is no bigger than Lebron in Miami.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Execept there is one aspect to this whole issue that has not been touched. Teams like the Knicks and Bulls have been down right terrible for the last decade are only now resurging. In fact it was so bad that they players would shun playing in Chicago or New York. Top level coaches would shun these organizations. Infact even this year the big Free Agents did not want to go to New York, they played it off and gave them sweet talk to their face about how great it would be playing in New York, and in the end only Stoudemire was brave enough to choose the big apple. Which means that ultimately players just want to win. Boston got lucky, they were about to lose Pierce and Ainge got a gift from Kevin Mchale. Boston was down right terrible form the time Bird retired to the time they drafted Paul Pierce, and just 4 years ago considered a toilet bowl of despair.

    None of these teams besides New York just simply went out and got themselves a superstar and changed it over night. All of them had to start with the draft and develop young players, and then turned those young players into trades for star players.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Infact the main thing this league needs is a smaller cap and a hard cap. The evidence of this is the fact that 3 of the top 5 picks in the 2003 draft are now on one team. A smaller and hard cap would have prevented this kind of tripling up that we are seeing today. The owners really only have themselves to blame. Danny Granger is correct, they need start revenue sharing. Though it wont happen because for whatever reason the big market owners seem to carry more weight when it comes to making these decisions. Can't understand why 5-6 owners who benefited the most have been able to dictate the terms for the other 24 wishers.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Execept there is one aspect to this whole issue that has not been touched. Teams like the Knicks and Bulls have been down right terrible for the last decade are only now resurging. In fact it was so bad that they players would shun playing in Chicago or New York. Top level coaches would shun these organizations. Infact even this year the big Free Agents did not want to go to New York, they played it off and gave them sweet talk to their face about how great it would be playing in New York, and in the end only Stoudemire was brave enough to choose the big apple. Which means that ultimately players just want to win. Boston got lucky, they were about to lose Pierce and Ainge got a gift from Kevin Mchale. Boston was down right terrible form the time Bird retired to the time they drafted Paul Pierce, and just 4 years ago considered a toilet bowl of despair.

    None of these teams besides New York just simply went out and got themselves a superstar and changed it over night. All of them had to start with the draft and develop young players, and then turned those young players into trades for star players.

    Absolutely. Boston turned good draft picks into KG and Ray Allen while NY had to make cap clearing moves to eventually land Amare and Raymond Felton (and it's not like Felton was some A list FA).

    That was Boston and NY, but it was hardly the baseball version of it where those two big market teams could just give $160M contracts to the best FAs available with nobody else even having a shot at them.

    Yeah, being NY or Boston definitely has its advantages in the NBA. No doubt about it. But some of the stuff being written (this article in particular) makes it sound as if the Celtics and Knicks can just operate as if they're the Red Sox and Yankees, which is hardly the case.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    I think the advantage these teams have had is that they were terrible for so long that most the fans wanted them to tank it to get those high draft picks to help restart the franchises. Over the years teams like Chicago, Boston and New York were all not shy about tanking their seasons.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    I think the advantage these teams have had is that they were terrible for so long that most the fans wanted them to tank it to get those high draft picks to help restart the franchises. Over the years teams like Chicago, Boston and New York were all not shy about tanking their seasons.
    Chicago has tanked every now since Jordan retired. The Knicks gave away their lottery picks half the time thanks to Isiah's trades, so they didn't tank much.

    As noted by cordobes, the Celtics didn't intend to tank in 2006-07. They were banged up and I think Pierce had his most injury riddled season and only played in 20 something games. Healthy, that team would've won 40 games or so and would've been a low playoff seed. At the end of the season, yeah they kind of tanked, but it was after they were pretty much out of the playoff race.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Chicago has tanked every now since Jordan retired. The Knicks gave away their lottery picks half the time thanks to Isiah's trades, so they didn't tank much.

    As noted by cordobes, the Celtics didn't intend to tank in 2006-07. They were banged up and I think Pierce had his most injury riddled season and only played in 20 something games. Healthy, that team would've won 40 games or so and would've been a low playoff seed. At the end of the season, yeah they kind of tanked, but it was after they were pretty much out of the playoff race.
    A bit of an understatement.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Yeah, being NY or Boston definitely has its advantages in the NBA. No doubt about it. But some of the stuff being written (this article in particular) makes it sound as if the Celtics and Knicks can just operate as if they're the Red Sox and Yankees, which is hardly the case.
    As blatant? No, certainly not. If they are in position to afford the luxury tax, however, this doesn't really ring true. I'm not necessarily thinking of the Celts and the Knicks here, more like the Lakers and eventually, the Heat. I would dearly love to see a hard cap. PERIOD. No exceptions for this, that or the other. Don't know how you would implement it, however. Probably never happen.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetime’s worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveP63 View Post
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    As blatant? No, certainly not. If they are in position to afford the luxury tax, however, this doesn't really ring true. I'm not necessarily thinking of the Celts and the Knicks here, more like the Lakers and eventually, the Heat. I would dearly love to see a hard cap. PERIOD. No exceptions for this, that or the other. Don't know how you would implement it, however. Probably never happen.
    A hard cap would not have prevented The Superfriends from forming in Miami last summer. They got way under the cap and signed those guys fair and square. It's not like the Yankees already having a $200M+ payroll and then signing CC Sabathia and Texeira for more ridiculous amounts of money.

    A hard cap also would not have prevented Shaq from signing with LA, as even they had to get under the cap. They would have been able to fit Shaq with Kobe under max deals and then found role players to put around them and still have been under a hard cap.

    Would their supporting casts have been weaker under a hard cap?

    Probably so, but the same would have been said of their opponents. Recall that the small market Pacers team that the Lakers beat in 2000 had one of the league's highest payrolls at the time. The small market Kings team they beat in 2001 also had a high payroll that the owners went into luxury tax on when they gave Mike Bibby a MAX deal. A hard cap would have hurt the strength of those teams as well.

    At the end of the day, a hard cap still can't address the most fundamental inequity in the NBA: The insufficient number of superstars to go around for every team.
    Last edited by d_c; 01-05-2011 at 08:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    2. Coaches- Do you think Phil Jackson comes out of retirement in 1998 to coach the Sonics. Of course not.
    Yes I do if they had Shaq and Kobe.


    3. GM's/Presidents - Do you think Danny Ainge pulls off the Ray Allen/KG trade if he is in Sacramento. Do you think Jerry West builds the 80's Lakers in Memphis. He tried and he didn't.
    Yes I think they could have pulled that trade off if in Sacramento - I don't think the city or size of market helped that rtrade.

    4. Owners - Big Market owners time and again appease their superstars. Kobe wants to be traded and they say no and make the changes to win titles. Paul Pierce demands a trade and Ainge comes through.
    I don't think market size is a factor in this.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
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    I agree with Danny. I had brought this point up a few years back...

    If the pacers were to offer an all star level FA a max deal and say the laker,knicks or any other big market team were to make a lower offer, i'd say 95% of the time the FA would take less money. Because if anything they can always recoup what they left in Indiana plus several more millions in endorsements in a larger market. Sad but true.
    Lebron didn't. he was offered max deal with the Knicks and Bulls and he ended up going to Miami which is the same market size as Cleveland. (Obviously I realize there are other factors involved) but the fact remains that Lebron didn't make his decision based upon market size.

    Also didn't a big market team offer Joe Johnsion Max money and he stayed in Atlanta

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Lebron didn't. he was offered max deal with the Knicks and Bulls and he ended up going to Miami which is the same market size as Cleveland. (Obviously I realize there are other factors involved) but the fact remains that Lebron didn't make his decision based upon market size.
    Correct, if Lebron made his decision purely on market size, he would've gone to NY. He went to a good but hardly gargantuan sized market in Miami.

    And he went to a team that was not considered to be a prime FA spot in the 80s to mid 90s. Back then, Miami was an expansion team with an expansion team image, and it was considered to be as much in the eyes of players. Nobody wanted to go there. What big free agents did Miami sign back then?

    They may as well have been the Memphis Grizzlies. It wasn't until Pat Riley took over the operations there that the place all of a sudden had an air of desirability and credibility. And Riley chose to go there on his own accord when the franchise had Glen Rice and nothing else.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Correct, if Lebron made his decision purely on market size, he would've gone to NY. He went to a good but hardly gargantuan sized market in Miami.

    And he went to a team that was not considered to be a prime FA spot in the 80s to mid 90s. Back then, Miami was an expansion team with an expansion team image, and it was considered to be as much in the eyes of players. Nobody wanted to go there. What big free agents did Miami sign back then?

    They may as well have been the Memphis Grizzlies. It wasn't until Pat Riley took over the operations there that the place all of a sudden had an air of desirability and credibility. And Riley chose to go there on his own accord when the franchise had Glen Rice and nothing else.

    Agreed with this sentiment.

    It seems like some people are already trying to lay the groundwork of excuses for when we miss out on free agents this summer, and proceed to take a completely mediocre player 13th overall next draft.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Back to the OP, I am incredibly glad that we have Danny Granger representing this team. I wonder how many players in the league actually understand the nuances of the situation. Smart guy.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronb View Post
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    Agreed with this sentiment.

    It seems like some people are already trying to lay the groundwork of excuses for when we miss out on free agents this summer, and proceed to take a completely mediocre player 13th overall next draft.
    and i absolutely hate our supposed leader being one of those people

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Honestly, the only time that the size of the market comes into play is when you're dealing with FA's and players with veto power.

    Real talk, Superstars are hard to get unless you were lucky enough to draft one, or you gut your entire team. If you think about it, how often are Superstars traded?

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Honestly, the only time that the size of the market comes into play is when you're dealing with FA's and players with veto power.

    Real talk, Superstars are hard to get unless you were lucky enough to draft one, or you gut your entire team. If you think about it, how often are Superstars traded?
    Sometimes its lucky draft picks and sometimes its threats. Where do you think the Lakers would be if they didn't draft/trade for Kobe.

    Quoting Bass Hornets GM.
    "He wouldn't work out with us and that bothered us," Bass said. "We couldn't meet him. His agent was trying to aim him to the Lakers and they threatened us."
    The New Jersey Nets, coached by John Calipari, considered Bryant with the eighth pick but chose Villanova's Kerry Kittles after hearing a similar message.
    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...g-on-kobe.html

    Certainly superstars or allstars aren't traded much but when they do they have veto powers. Geez no one wants to poney up the cost for Carmelo if they think he won't resign with the team. There is more than one way to manipulate a situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Yes I do if they had Shaq and Kobe.
    No one knew that Kobe would reach his full potential and he wasn't even a starter for the team when Phil got there. Phil went there because they are a winning organization in a big market.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    No one knew that Kobe would reach his full potential and he wasn't even a starter for the team when Phil got there. Phil went there because they are a winning organization in a big market.

    In the year before Phil become the head coach, Kobe:
    Kobe averages 19.9 points per game and Kobe started every game he played. he only played 50 games that season.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    In the year before Phil become the head coach, Kobe:
    Kobe averages 19.9 points per game and Kobe started every game he played. he only played 50 games that season.
    He only played 50 games because it was the lockout season.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Correct, if Lebron made his decision purely on market size, he would've gone to NY. He went to a good but hardly gargantuan sized market in Miami.

    And he went to a team that was not considered to be a prime FA spot in the 80s to mid 90s. Back then, Miami was an expansion team with an expansion team image, and it was considered to be as much in the eyes of players. Nobody wanted to go there. What big free agents did Miami sign back then?

    They may as well have been the Memphis Grizzlies. It wasn't until Pat Riley took over the operations there that the place all of a sudden had an air of desirability and credibility. And Riley chose to go there on his own accord when the franchise had Glen Rice and nothing else.
    There are a couple of important things you left out about Miami:

    1. It's located in Florida. Nice weather and South Beach are attractive to athletes.

    2. There is no state income tax in Florida.

    These are some perks that Indianapolis doesn't have.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    In the year before Phil become the head coach, Kobe:
    Kobe averages 19.9 points per game and Kobe started every game he played. he only played 50 games that season.
    Got my years mixed up.

    Point is I doubt Phil knew his 20 year old player was going to be that good. Kobe only went to the Lakers because they were a big market anyway.

    Look if you want to believe that the NBA gives equal chances to teams to win titles then by all means believe that. To me evidence speaks otherwise.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Got my years mixed up.

    Point is I doubt Phil knew his 20 year old player was going to be that good. Kobe only went to the Lakers because they were a big market anyway.

    Look if you want to believe that the NBA gives equal chances to teams to win titles then by all means believe that. To me evidence speaks otherwise.

    I agree that it certainly helps. But San Antonio and the Pacers from 91-2004 are examples of Small markets having sustained success.

    The key is having good management that can formulate a plan. Then having the stones to follow that plan. (see also, OKC and Sam Presti)

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