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Thread: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Yup. And the whole point is that those top 15 players can pick and choose where they want to play. Every team who can would be willing to offer the max for these players, and they would still be mostly underpaid at that. That's where other factors like market size and management becomes important, and that's where small market teams are particularly disadvantaged.
    I think there is a major problem with the pay structure. The players who are say 1-15 and get "max" contractsare the ones that probably deserve them.

    It is the players from about 30-60 that are getting paid near max, and way more than they are worth relative to the higher tier. You have players who are making 1-2M on rookie contracts. Bad teams have to compile young, cheap players, which is the only way for bad teams to compete financially and attempt to have hope for the future. I think teams like Dallas, NY, Miami, LA, Boston, whoever else wants to spend frivolously should be paying a $2 for $1 luxury tax. I also believe that there should be a similar scenario for the owners where they pool their money like the players do and split it according to the health of the league. LA wants to be the swanky destination, make them pay for being swanky. NY has no problem paying out the nose to be high-profile. Miami will be in the LT for years for taking on Lebron and Bosh. Make these teams pay for their decisions. Right now, they are getting a free pass with the extra revenues they get from being competitive, which is a pretty direct result of having a payroll at 80M+.

    There needs to be either revenue sharing or contraction. I think it looks horrible for the league to contract. I also think hockey has things right (for them) with a hard cap. Make ours harder. Basketball wants dream teams. Hockey wants better competition. That is why hockey is a much better run sport. The egos in hockey are secondary to winning. Not the NBA. David Stern would love it if was the Lakers versus Celtics every single year. Why even play the games if you know the four teams you want to be competitive every year.

    Things like "The D(ouch)ecision" are an anomoly. There is no protection the league should put in place against that. I just think that this might go against something the league has prioritized for years, and that is for teams to have a significant advantage to keeping the players they have. Ironically, the "Bird Rule" comes to mind. Things like the decision will shape the future of player decisions. But in the end, it still comes down to money from both sides.

    I just want to know what the platform is coming from the league office. What does Stern think is best for the NBA? Why is David Stern representing the owners? Because they have more money. That's right. The players will spend their money. A few will be mega-wealthy, but most of them won't maintain the welath that the owners will. I want to know from the league, what the ideal situation would be from the standpoint of the health of the league, not a biased negotiating tactic from the owners. Give us leadership Stern. Oh that's right. You aren't capable.

    OK Rant over.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by odeez View Post
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    This article is just depressing and it makes me sad to know it's true. Revenue sharing would be nice for the smaller market teams. Let's hope and pray it happens one day.
    Sums up my feelings as well. Compared to LA, Chicago, Miami, Orlando, and New York, Indiana is no-mans land for Free Agents. Even places like Cleveland and Philadelphia are ahead of Indianapolis (I personally don't think they are better cities) as being more attractive to Free Agents.

    The Pacers will probably have to select from the veteran minimum type players or overpay All-Star level players to come and play in Indy. Considering there are no All-Star level FAs to be had this summer (other than a disabled Yao Ming), What's the point in having all that capspace? I guess it would make it easier to sell the team.

    This thread is very depressing.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    There needs to be either revenue sharing or contraction. I think it looks horrible for the league to contract. I also think hockey has things right (for them) with a hard cap. Make ours harder. Basketball wants dream teams. Hockey wants better competition. That is why hockey is a much better run sport. The egos in hockey are secondary to winning. Not the NBA. David Stern would love it if was the Lakers versus Celtics every single year. Why even play the games if you know the four teams you want to be competitive every year.
    You lost me the moment you mentioned Hockey. Sure the players might have a better pay scale which allows the teams and owners to have some parity but Hockey is so low on the sports radar and makes so much less TV/gate/merchandising revenue that it doesn't really deserve to be in this conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    If anyone still actually questions why the NFL is, head and shoulders, better than the NBA, just read this article.
    The NFL is "better" than the NBA because the NFL administers a more popular game. Americans like watching football more than they do basketball. That has always been the case and always will be. The NFL could screw up a lot of things and America will always watch football.

    It's "better" because it's not a superstar dominated league. It simply can't be. Not when there are 53 man rosters in the NFL vs. 12 man rosters in the NBA where one superstar who is a way better player than everyone else can absolutely dominate. That kind of stuff can't happen in football, where a superstar only plays offense or defense (but not both) and there are 21 other starting players on the roster.

    The NBA and the NFL are two different games. One is basketball and the other is football. Football always has been and always will be more popular.
    Last edited by d_c; 01-04-2011 at 10:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    You lost me the moment you mentioned Hockey. Sure the players might have a better pay scale which allows the teams and owners to have some parity but Hockey is so low on the sports radar and makes so much less TV/gate/merchandising revenue that it doesn't really deserve to be in this conversation.
    Why not, if NHL teams are able to sustain themselves and if fan interest is growing rather than waning? To refuse to learn from someone who is successful at their level simply because they are smaller (or less popular) than you is to blind yourself to a potential source of answers.
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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Thank you Danny for signing an extension with Indy.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    You lost me the moment you mentioned Hockey. Sure the players might have a better pay scale which allows the teams and owners to have some parity but Hockey is so low on the sports radar and makes so much less TV/gate/merchandising revenue that it doesn't really deserve to be in this conversation.
    You're thinking from an Indianapolis perspective, where hockey isn't popular. In reality, hockey attendance isn't much different than the NBA.

    http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

    Sure, they don't get as much TV money as other leagues, but the NHL absolutely deserves to be "in the conversation". I would guess merchandising revenue isn't much different than the NBA. Pretty much all of the Canadian teams are NFL-popular in their cities.

    I live in Chicago and went to the Blackhawks parade after they won the Cup last year. 2 million people came out, twice as many as Obama's election night rally. The NHL is very much alive, even if it's not a sport that's represented in Indy.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Just a few points:

    -Clippers, 76ers, Wizards and Warriors play in relatively big markets and have gotten small market results because of poor ownership/management.

    -Teams like Utah and Phx have been very competitive in small markets. Jazz are a perennial playoff team despite playing in a city that most young millionaire athletes would put at the bottom of the desirability list. These two franchises are basically what the Spurs would have been minus Tim Duncan.

    -Miami in the late 80s and early 90s was basically what the Memphis Grizzlies are now: an expansion team not doing anything or going anywhere. They weren't the desirable FA destination they are now. They were going nowhere until Pat Riley got onto the scene in 1995. Also, the big market Chicago Bulls may as well have been the Chicago Cubs until Jordan arrived on the scene.

    The biggest problem the NBA faces in terms of competitive balance is that, in a league of about 450 players and 30 teams, there are a group of about 12-15 players that are so much better than all the rest. And going further than that, the 1-5 players are probably a good deal better than the guys ranked 6-15. There are lots of players, but only a few that actually matter, and there aren't enough of them to go around.

    My view is that "It is what it is".

    Indy didn't just become a small market over the last 5 or 6 years. Indy isn't Losing because its a small market.

    We are losing because we are and have been mismanaged over the past 6-7 seasons. Starting with the Brad Miller for Scot Pollard trade, and Sjax FOR Harrington original trade. This has been a mismanaged franchise.

    Get the right decision maker in here. And we can easily get back to being on the Utah,OKC,Portland, Pacers of the 90's level.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Why not, if NHL teams are able to sustain themselves and if fan interest is growing rather than waning? To refuse to learn from someone who is successful at their level simply because they are smaller (or less popular) than you is to blind yourself to a potential source of answers.
    What I'm saying is that the NHL doesn't have to deal with the same mitigating factors that the NBA has to deal with - namely the current CBA and current NBA player salaries. I'm not saying that their model isn't a good one, I just don't think it will work for the NBA.

    One thing that the NBA has done well since the last CBA - even better than the NFL, MLB, and NHL - is the rookie salary scale and having non-guaranteed salaries for 2nd round picks. The rookie restrictions on free agency have been a good idea as well.

    One thing that could help Parity is lowering the luxury tax level or having a sliding luxury tax scale for each team based on the teams revenue. So a team over the salary cap that is struggling to make any money could pay a lower percentage of luxury tax than a team like LA, NY, ext if they are over the luxury tax limit.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Hockey gets a larger % of their revenues from ticket sales than the NBA does. Ticket revenue might be about equal when comparing the NBA and the NHL. The biggest difference is national TV money - not sure of the exact figures, but the NBA gets probably 5 times as muich national TV money and that is shared equally amongst the NBA teams.

    So actually Hockey needs more revenue sharing than the NBA

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    What I'm saying is that the NHL doesn't have to deal with the same mitigating factors that the NBA has to deal with - namely the current CBA and current NBA player salaries. I'm not saying that their model isn't a good one, I just don't think it will work for the NBA.

    One thing that the NBA has done well since the last CBA - even better than the NFL, MLB, and NHL - is the rookie salary scale and having non-guaranteed salaries for 2nd round picks. The rookie restrictions on free agency have been a good idea as well.

    One thing that could help Parity is lowering the luxury tax level or having a sliding luxury tax scale for each team based on the teams revenue. So a team over the salary cap that is struggling to make any money could pay a lower percentage of luxury tax than a team like LA, NY, ext if they are over the luxury tax limit.
    And when I brought up hockey, I said that a hard cap works for them. The NBA needs to restrict its cap by either strengthening the Luxury tax penalty, solidifying a harder cap, or reducing players salaries to fit more appropriately under the cap. Some of that is team management making decisions, but it is within the confines of the structure of the CBA. You are basically agreeing with the tightening of league policies on spending, which was my point with bringing up the NHL in the first place.

    The NHL had a lockout a few years ago that prevented player salaries from getting out of control. They watched the NBA screw it up and realized they needed more team depth across the league than superstars at the top. Superstars sign for less across the board because of it. The NBA pays fewer people so it's the Drew Goodens, Hakim Warricks and Eddy Currys of the world that make the NBA salary landscape look out of control. Its ok to keep Max deals the same. As a league, they must tighten the restrictions on paying players like I mentioned the type of money they are getting.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    as the supposed leader of this franchise, granger had no business saying some of the things he said imo. instead of sounding off on what he thinks is unfair, he needs to take more accountability as a player for the situation the pacers are in. how many consecutive years did teams like portland, utah, and the pacers make the playoffs from the 90s to early 2000s? tired of the damn excuses. the pacers haven't even had the money to sign free agents and yet we're making that excuse? no, bad management is why we aren't making the playoffs anymore, not because we are small market. you think reggie miller would go off making the excuses that granger just did? pisses me off seeing granger say things that no true leader would ever be caught saying.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    as the supposed leader of this franchise, granger had no business saying some of the things he said imo. instead of sounding off on what he thinks is unfair, he needs to take more accountability as a player for the situation the pacers are in. how many consecutive years did teams like portland, utah, and the pacers make the playoffs from the 90s to early 2000s? tired of the damn excuses. the pacers haven't even had the money to sign free agents and yet we're making that excuse? no, bad management is why we aren't making the playoffs anymore, not because we are small market. you think reggie miller would go off making the excuses that granger just did? pisses me off seeing granger say things that no true leader would ever be caught saying.
    Um, yes. I heard Reggie make very similar comments about the Bulls back in the day and both L.A. & N.Y.


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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    knicks have 1 title since the 70s. in the jordan years the bulls didn't buy up any players with their "big market" cash. only la and boston have maintained consistency as big market powers and even boston had to utilize shrewd trades to get to where they are now. if not for the drafting of jordan, cities like portland, seattle, phoenix, utah, orlando, and even the pacers would likely have titles. i also didn't realize san antonio was such a big market??? this big market *****ing holds no place in the nba and our supposed leader should not be making excuses for his teams failures. i also don't ever recall hearing reggie makes such excuses about the bulls, especially since pippen and jordan began their careers in chicago.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Um, yes. I heard Reggie make very similar comments about the Bulls back in the day and both L.A. & N.Y.
    To go another step further.... Weren't these things said during Miller's contract negotiation? For some reason that time period sticks in my mind for his "similar" comments about not being able to win in a small market!
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    knicks have 1 title since the 70s. in the jordan years the bulls didn't buy up any players with their "big market" cash. only la and boston have maintained consistency as big market powers and even boston had to utilize shrewd trades to get to where they are now. if not for the drafting of jordan, cities like portland, seattle, phoenix, utah, orlando, and even the pacers would likely have titles. i also didn't realize san antonio was such a big market??? this big market *****ing holds no place in the nba and our supposed leader should not be making excuses for his teams failures. i also don't ever recall hearing reggie makes such excuses about the bulls, especially since pippen and jordan began their careers in chicago.
    You do realize that Pippen was a trade right? The Sonics drafted him and he was traded for Olden Polynice.


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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You do realize that Pippen was a trade right? The Sonics drafted him and he was traded for Olden Polynice.
    and you realize i stated pippen began his career in chicago? pippen never suited up for seattle. fact remains, big market money did not put chicago in a position to win. chicago barely had an nba history before jordan and pippen arrived. deals that shaq and lebron made signing with other teams while at the top of the league are very rare in the nba. wise drafting and trades is what wins in this league, not big market/small market.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    and you realize i stated pippen began his career in chicago? pippen never suited up for seattle. fact remains, big market money did not put chicago in a position to win. chicago barely had an nba history before jordan and pippen arrived. deals that shaq and lebron made signing with other teams while at the top of the league are very rare in the nba. wise drafting and trades is what wins in this league, not big market/small market.
    Not to mention a lot of luck.

    Sadly our franchise has never had much luck in the superstar department when it comes to drafts. Both Reggie & Danny are great players but neither truely was/is an elite superstar.


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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    knicks have 1 title since the 70s. in the jordan years the bulls didn't buy up any players with their "big market" cash. only la and boston have maintained consistency as big market powers and even boston had to utilize shrewd trades to get to where they are now. if not for the drafting of jordan, cities like portland, seattle, phoenix, utah, orlando, and even the pacers would likely have titles. i also didn't realize san antonio was such a big market??? this big market *****ing holds no place in the nba and our supposed leader should not be making excuses for his teams failures. i also don't ever recall hearing reggie makes such excuses about the bulls, especially since pippen and jordan began their careers in chicago.
    I don't think anyone would argue that management isn't the biggest factor to a teams success but you can't ignore the market factor either.

    Just take into account what type of teams shrewd owners want to own and where coaches and players want to play. To say that markets don't impact teams is crazy.

    Big Markets which make up a small propotion of leauge have the majority of the NBA titles by far. Sure you can point to the Spurs but they are the exception not the rule. If David Robinson doesn't get hurt in 1997 then the spurs don't get Duncan and they don't go on their run for their titles. This is an amazing amount of luck.

    Like it or not big markets draw a disproportionate amount of talent their way.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Big Markets which make up a small proportion of leauge have the majority of the NBA titles by far. Sure you can point to the Spurs but they are the exception not the rule.
    But is that because they are big market teams or lucky/fortunate to get the players.

    I mean if Jordan had gone to the Blazers (who had a chance to draft him) they would have IMO won as many titles as the Bulls did.

    I'm not suggesting that big maket dooesn't help, but I don't think you can suggest teams have won titles because they are big market teams. It is true just by the nature of the NBA that very few different teams win the NBA title. And teams tend to win again and again while they have the superstar players.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Actually, I'm right there with you on cutting the number of games back to say.... 60! More emphasis on weekend games and a reduced number of back to backs. The reduced gate revenue would almost have to be backed by local revenue sharing to have a chance, though.
    But wouldn't that be compensated by higher ticket demand due to less games?

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by croz24 View Post
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    and you realize i stated pippen began his career in chicago? pippen never suited up for seattle. fact remains, big market money did not put chicago in a position to win. chicago barely had an nba history before jordan and pippen arrived. deals that shaq and lebron made signing with other teams while at the top of the league are very rare in the nba. wise drafting and trades is what wins in this league, not big market/small market.
    You make some great points croz. If you look at the Lakers from recent memory, not the 80's and earlier, they traded for kobe on draft night. They also swung for the fences by drafting a young Bynum. They took these players and immediately began developing them. They were inserted into the lineup with good players around them that they spent money on. Or made trades for. The Pau Gasol deal everyone will say was lopsided. Looking at it, the Lakers traded away four first round picks in that deal that they had compiled. Two actual firsts. Crittendon. Marc Gasol was a high second but was as big a part of that deal as anything. Had he came out a year later, he would have been a sure fire first. The ownership was also willing to take on an additional $40M in contract value (I believe he was owed for two more years at roughly $20M per). The difference between what we have done thus far, which I have liked, was not putting our young players out there enough to see how they can grow with our better talented players. Those Lakers teams put the best talent on the floor and took their lumps. Maybe not as much with Kobe, because of Shaq, but look at the volatility it created.

    McRoberts and George and Price and Hibbert to a lesser extent should be seeing so much more playing time, because I think this franchise is so adamant in trying to make the playoffs for the extra revenues it would create. I pray that Larry trades away Dun, Ford, Posey, and Foster at the deadline. I don't even care for what, an injured player on an expiring contract would be great, just to force the rotations for our younger guys. It is less of a scenario to make the most of your talent, as opposed to put the most into your most talented. That is what we have backwards. George shouldn't be starting, but he should be getting Dunleavy's 30 minutes per game. Price (and Stephenson although a different scenario) should be getting all of Ford's minutes. McRoberts and Hansborough should be eating up all of Posey and Foster's minutes. I love our veterans, but they should be compliments, not the main focus. I know we have discussed this a million times. But we need to take our shots with our best talent. Our best upside. Our best solution for future stability's sake. Man I have ranted recently. My apologies.
    Last edited by pacergod2; 01-04-2011 at 03:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    But is that because they are big market teams or lucky/fortunate to get the players.

    I mean if Jordan had gone to the Blazers (who had a chance to draft him) they would have IMO won as many titles as the Bulls did.

    I'm not suggesting that big maket dooesn't help, but I don't think you can suggest teams have won titles because they are big market teams. It is true just by the nature of the NBA that very few different teams win the NBA title. And teams tend to win again and again while they have the superstar players.
    Agreed. Portland had a darn good team during the early Jordan years. Drexler, Porter, Kersey, Duckworth, Buck WIlliams. You could make the argument that they were just unfortunate to be good in the peak of the Jordan era. But they were good, small market or not.

  30. #49
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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Big markets have a far larger margin of error, and can rely on having less drafting luck. Most small markets teams that become good become good because they did a great job drafting, not because they were able to use money in free agency to surround their superstar with talent. Lets be honest this isn't about the superstars it is about the supporting cast that large markets are able to bring in that small markets aren't. This is because those large markets can more easily afford to pay those players more.

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    Default Re: Granger looks on as Indiana tries to keep pace with big markets

    Calimero Syndrom comes to mind reading this thread
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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