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Thread: What good would it do?

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    Default What good would it do?

    First assume we will have a new coach next year. With this in mind what does the pacers organization have to gain from firing Jim Obrien now?

    Our team is still playing better defense than they have in a long time. Collison is still our starter despite being a second year player whoms defense is a WIP. Mcroberts has started nearly every game this season and Foster is better than anyone wants to give him credit for. Paul George started getting some minutes again 2 games before the outbreak. Whomever replaces Obrien would more than likely still make TJ the backup point guard. While certain questionable in game calls may be upsetting, there are still positives when looking at the development of this team. We did hold a team averaging 107 pts a game under 100. This season when not facing elite pg's our weaknesses have been on offense. Whatever coach we get next year will more than likely bring a different system along with it. We are playing good enough defense to stay in games against good teams even when our shots aren't falling and that is something to build on. What will an interim coach do to improve the package handed to a new coach next year? Why would this team be better off after going through this trauma? Who do you want to take his JOB and why do you expect its sitting on the table?

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    I'm not exactly sure what is different about this post and the 100 others other than this is an anti-anti-O'Brien post.

    Are you really looking for answers or were you just making a point? Seems like you have your mind made up.

    However in an effort to answer some of your questions I'll try my best.

    With this in mind what does the pacers organization have to gain from firing Jim Obrien now? First they are not going to fire him, we all know that. However if they were to fire him in some of our opinions they would gain a new direction, a new offense, a directive from management that young players need consistant productive time on the floor. They would rid themselves of tinkering with lineups and a coach who has zero tolerance for young players making a mistake while an older player can play without fear of reprisal. Immediately players would be given roles and stretch forwards would be relegated to opprotunities and situational play as opposed to being given increased playing time as the season goes on. It would show the players that while they share in the responsibility of what is going on that management understands they were not put in the best opprotunity to succeed however that future sucess or failure is on them.

    Our team is still playing better defense than they have in a long time. Not having Troy Murphy will do that for you. However additionally when we were playing stiffling defense it was because we had both Josh & Roy patrolling the paint and not have players who are in their 30's playing the center & power forward spot for extended min.

    Collison is still our starter despite being a second year player whoms defense is a WIP. Collison has his issues on defense that is for sure. However he is a second year player who is coming into a situation that any point guard would hate to come into. He has a coach who does not want the ball in his hands and wants a passing offense to where he is more of a scorer than a facilitator. Also what choice does Jim have, remember he really doesn't like T.J. any more than he does Darren.

    Mcroberts has started nearly every game this season and Foster is better than anyone wants to give him credit for. McRoberts play is the one reason I want O'Brien fired right here and right now. There is no way on God's green earth that James Posey should play half of the min. he has played this season at the power forward spot. When we started the season Josh was playing by the rim on defense and was one of the huge reasons why Roy was doing so well on defense because he was taking the pressure off of him. Also he draws fouls, gets offensive rebounds and plays above the rim. Yes, Jeff Foster has played very well in the time he has been on the floor.

    Paul George started getting some minutes again 2 games before the outbreak. Outbreak? I'm not sure what your talking about here but I know one thing we went from 6th man to DNP-CD for over a month. He needs consistant time to develop, maybe not 20 min. a game but certainly some min. a game. He should never be in street cloths.


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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Wow, want a list? I'll start it off, I'm sure others can chip in:

    - Make the playoffs.
    - Enhance the image of the franchise in time for free agency.
    - Make the Pacers watchable just in time for the casual fan to pay attention after the Colts season is over.
    - Stop Hicks from going PFFL.
    - Improve Since86's home life, love life and work environment.
    - Negate the chance Naptown Seth gets arrested at Conseco in a couple weeks.
    - Somewhat reduce the chance Shade hangs himself.
    - And lastly, make the board readable again!
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    - Stop Hicks from going PFFL.
    - Improve Since86's home life, love life and work environment.
    - Negate the chance Naptown Seth gets arrested at Conseco in a couple weeks.
    - Somewhat reduce the chance Shade hangs himself.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    The offense is so bad that it completely negates the improvements on the defensive end.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    I want O'Brien gone as bad as the next guy, but I'm getting so tired of this forum being consumed by fire Jim O'Brien threads. Make it your mood, and comment on the "Official Fire Jim O'Brien thread."

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryheathco View Post
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    I want O'Brien gone as bad as the next guy, but I'm getting so tired of this forum being consumed by fire Jim O'Brien threads. Make it your mood, and comment on the "Official Fire Jim O'Brien thread."
    i agree 1000% this is turning into fire JOB.com I hate the guy but this board is unreal.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I'm not exactly sure what is different about this post and the 100 others other than this is an anti-anti-O'Brien post.

    Are you really looking for answers or were you just making a point? Seems like you have your mind made up.

    However in an effort to answer some of your questions I'll try my best.

    With this in mind what does the pacers organization have to gain from firing Jim Obrien now? First they are not going to fire him, we all know that. However if they were to fire him in some of our opinions they would gain a new direction, a new offense, a directive from management that young players need consistant productive time on the floor. They would rid themselves of tinkering with lineups and a coach who has zero tolerance for young players making a mistake while an older player can play without fear of reprisal. Immediately players would be given roles and stretch forwards would be relegated to opprotunities and situational play as opposed to being given increased playing time as the season goes on. It would show the players that while they share in the responsibility of what is going on that management understands they were not put in the best opprotunity to succeed however that future sucess or failure is on them.

    Our team is still playing better defense than they have in a long time. Not having Troy Murphy will do that for you. However additionally when we were playing stiffling defense it was because we had both Josh & Roy patrolling the paint and not have players who are in their 30's playing the center & power forward spot for extended min.

    Collison is still our starter despite being a second year player whoms defense is a WIP. Collison has his issues on defense that is for sure. However he is a second year player who is coming into a situation that any point guard would hate to come into. He has a coach who does not want the ball in his hands and wants a passing offense to where he is more of a scorer than a facilitator. Also what choice does Jim have, remember he really doesn't like T.J. any more than he does Darren.

    Mcroberts has started nearly every game this season and Foster is better than anyone wants to give him credit for. McRoberts play is the one reason I want O'Brien fired right here and right now. There is no way on God's green earth that James Posey should play half of the min. he has played this season at the power forward spot. When we started the season Josh was playing by the rim on defense and was one of the huge reasons why Roy was doing so well on defense because he was taking the pressure off of him. Also he draws fouls, gets offensive rebounds and plays above the rim. Yes, Jeff Foster has played very well in the time he has been on the floor.

    Paul George started getting some minutes again 2 games before the outbreak. Outbreak? I'm not sure what your talking about here but I know one thing we went from 6th man to DNP-CD for over a month. He needs consistant time to develop, maybe not 20 min. a game but certainly some min. a game. He should never be in street cloths.

    There is a bit of making a point involved, however I truly am interested in what people have to say. Outbreak refers to several fire Obrien threads turning into only fire JOB threads. Just acknowledging it happened .

    Mentioning DC starting all season, Mcroberts starting and Georges return to the court simply was meant to imply that he plays some of our youth. In fact, If Rush was named permanent starter I believe we have the second youngest starting lineup in the league. Our youth is being developed and we have no real insight to how much these guys grow in practice. If someones a big AJ Price fan I understand their frustration.

    The culture has been great. These guys work hark, seem to like each other and are growing together. I didn't mean to hide my current opinion that we would be better off not messing with things until JOB's replacement has been chosen, or the off season. I made this thread in hopes of discussing the future from the perspective of the man who actually makes the decisions. There is no value to the Pacers organization in Bird making a statement that this is Obriens last season even if he plans on replacing him. Making hasty decisions to please the fans is how you ruin a team and Birds patience is what has impressed me most about him. This thread is different because it isn't a yay rah I hate JOB thread. its a what should Larry Bird do thread.


    the moods all say "fire" so I am asking what is so wrong with letting his contract expire? Just because you don't expect something to happen you still are stating it is what you want.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    One of the biggest reasons to move on to another coach is that we would probably immediately begin to use Collison as an actual point guard. If you have a young PG having excellent abilities at running the PnR, then it would seem wise to attempt to leverage those abilities.

    You would think with Collison the PnR would be a bread and butter play. In over 30 games thus far, we probably haven't attempted 100 pick & rolls. Jeesh, I think the Stockton / Malone combo ran that many every 2-3 games.

    Another reason to move on is to evaluate the players as they play within a more conventional offensive system. The Pacers are approaching the best opportunity for improving their talent that they have had in many, many years due to the cap space that they will have. I think it is very important that they know as much as possible about their players prior to selecting in the draft, making significant trades and approaching players in free agency. Having a new coach in place, building rapport with him and obtaining his input should be part of that process. The sooner, the better.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryheathco View Post
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    I want O'Brien gone as bad as the next guy, but I'm getting so tired of this forum being consumed by fire Jim O'Brien threads. Make it your mood, and comment on the "Official Fire Jim O'Brien thread."

    I was going to post something similar, although more lengthy in a thread someone started half an hour ago that simply was a poster stating they thought another one was needed to make a point. When I hit post it had been removed. I want to thank the moderators on this board for making efforts to keep my favorite website from turning into a total landfill.

    hey can I have a "dealing with it" mood
    Last edited by spazzxb; 01-04-2011 at 12:17 AM.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    I think a little bit of basketball common sense would be good for this team, particularly for the young guys.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    With this in mind what does the pacers organization have to gain from firing Jim Obrien now?
    Firing him tells the fanbase, team, and media you don't accept Jim O'Brien's system and methods, or playing and losing in this way, and will condone it no longer.

    Keeping him around tells those same people you accept it and likely believe in it. The longer he stays on, the stronger this message is.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Firing him tells the fanbase, team, and media you don't accept Jim O'Brien's system and methods, or playing and losing in this way, and will condone it no longer.

    Keeping him around tells those same people you accept it and likely believe in it. The longer he stays on, the stronger this message is.
    Caving to an impatient fan base is a recipe for disaster. Bird has done a good job patiently building this team, while ignoring the "noise", I don't want him to get confused now. The fans care about results, as much as they whine and complain about the specifics of getting from point a to b in the end they aren't coming back until the team is winning consistently. If bird finishes his job of building us a contender it won't make any difference. The media flip-flops on a dime and I could care less whether they are appeased. When bird plays his hand, the speculators thought won't mean a damn thing. People only are assuming the players are unhappy.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Caving to an impatient fan base is a recipe for disaster.
    Sticking with a festering mistake is also a recipe for disaster.

    Bird has done a good job patiently building this team, while ignoring the "noise", I don't want him to get confused now.
    Just because you can term it 'noise' doesn't mean the fans are wrong. In fact when the noise reaches these levels IMHO there's a very good chance the fans have a valid point.

    There may be some valid reasons (in their mind) that TPTB continue to hold onto O'Brien but they get harder to justify everyday he remains on the bench. I refuse to believe the team isn't losing money/ticket sales/fans exponentially as disgust with O'Brien grows. Factor in the likely problems he's creating among teammates and the confusion his contradictory methods are creating.

    If the reasons for holding onto O'Brien are more basketball related than business related then IMO we have a serious problem and someone with a coaching blindspot walking the halls of PS&E.

    Just because they don't fire him during the season, and haven't fired him already, doesn't mean they shouldn't.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Sticking with a festering mistake is also a recipe for disaster.



    Just because you can term it 'noise' doesn't mean the fans are wrong. In fact when the noise reaches these levels IMHO there's a very good chance the fans have a valid point.

    There may be some valid reasons (in their mind) that TPTB continue to hold onto O'Brien but they get harder to justify everyday he remains on the bench. I refuse to believe the team isn't losing money/ticket sales/fans exponentially as disgust with O'Brien grows. Factor in the likely problems he's creating among teammates and the confusion his contradictory methods are creating.

    If the reasons for holding onto O'Brien are more basketball related than business related then IMO we have a serious problem and someone with a coaching blindspot walking the halls of PS&E.

    Just because they don't fire him during the season, and haven't fired him already, doesn't mean they shouldn't.
    not sure why you chopped that up it was expressed as one point. I use the term "noise" in the textbook business sense. Here it is the rest again since it appears you didn't read the whole paragraph.

    "The fans care about results, as much as they whine and complain about the specifics of getting from point a to b in the end they aren't coming back until the team is winning consistently. If bird finishes his job of building us a contender it won't make any difference. The media flip-flops on a dime and I could care less whether they are appeased. When bird plays his hand, the speculators thought won't mean a damn thing. People only are assuming the players are unhappy."

    The fans were supposed to come back when we got rid of JO, tinsley, and Stephen Jackson. They ran Jackson out of town and proceeded to complain about the consequences associated with the move (Murphleavy)and never came back. Winning is the only way to bring the fans back. If you can tell me for sure a firing JOB will bring more wins, I would have no aurgument. I just feel there would be negative consequences that make it better to keep him on board until a replacement is ready to take over.
    Last edited by spazzxb; 01-04-2011 at 03:58 AM.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    not sure why you chopped that up it was expressed as one point. I use the term "noise" in the textbook business sense. Here it is the rest again since it appears you didn't read the whole paragraph.

    "The fans care about results, as much as they whine and complain about the specifics of getting from point a to b in the end they aren't coming back until the team is winning consistently. If bird finishes his job of building us a contender it won't make any difference. The media flip-flops on a dime and I could care less whether they are appeased. When bird plays his hand, the speculators thought won't mean a damn thing. People only are assuming the players are unhappy."

    The fans were supposed to come back when we got rid of JO, tinsley, and Stephen Jackson. They ran Jackson out of town and proceeded to complain about the consequences associated with the move (Murphleavy)and never came back. Winning is the only way to bring the fans back. If you can tell me for sure a firing JOB will bring more wins, I would have no aurgument. I just feel there would be negative consequences that make it better to keep him on board until a replacement is ready to take over.
    I believe there are different subsets of 'fans' (or potential fans for that matter) as well as different phases in a team's/franchise's development.

    If you're a contending team then you better be making championship moves with whatever you do.

    OTOH, if you're a team in freefall then the casual fans are already bailing anyway. There's no stopping that. But you don't want to alienate the core fans... the ones that try to be there thru thick and thin. The ones that understand NBA basketball. The ones that can quote the CBA or are at least smart enough to ask the right questions about it. The ones that know trade deadlines, FA rules, and have at least a passing knowledge of assistant coaches on the benches of other teams.

    Those fans can accept and understand some losing... as long as they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. The team with Jim O'Brien at the helm has many of us seeing regression, not growth or growth potential. It's getting harder and harder to see any good coming of any more of O'Brien's coaching.

    From the outside looking in I don't see any divas needing pacified... except maybe for Jim O'Brien himself.

    We're just wasting time now and creating a real fracture in fan support as well as team morale.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I believe there are different subsets of 'fans' (or potential fans for that matter) as well as different phases in a team's/franchise's development.

    If you're a contending team then you better be making championship moves with whatever you do.

    OTOH, if you're a team in freefall then the casual fans are already bailing anyway. There's no stopping that. But you don't want to alienate the core fans... the ones that try to be there thru thick and thin. The ones that understand NBA basketball. The ones that can quote the CBA or are at least smart enough to ask the right questions about it. The ones that know trade deadlines, FA rules, and have at least a passing knowledge of assistant coaches on the benches of other teams.

    Those fans can accept and understand some losing... as long as they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. The team with Jim O'Brien at the helm has many of us seeing regression, not growth or growth potential. It's getting harder and harder to see any good coming of any more of O'Brien's coaching.

    From the outside looking in I don't see any divas needing pacified... except maybe for Jim O'Brien himself.

    We're just wasting time now and creating a real fracture in fan support as well as team morale.
    Are you really going to be happier with a new coach next season if JOB was fired now instead of letting his contract expire in a few months? For a long time hardcore fan are these few months really going to be what finally turns them away? If our replacement was available and interested now it would be a different scenario, some rent a coach ,i feel, would do more harm than good. It may be convenient to ignore but our team has become drastically younger the last couple of seasons and our defense is considerably improved. Rush, Hibbert and Josh have all seen improvement and higher utilization this year. Collision is a second year starter who wasn't even here last year. Complain about the coach all you like but almost everyone except the people on this board see us as a team on the rise.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Holy crap, has no one else pointed this out?!

    The reason that Jim O'Brien needs to be gone away and put up forever before the season ends is because firing him now 100% positively, absolutely, and certainly kills any little itsy-bitsy tiny chance of the clown being resigned to a new 4 year contract or something ludicrous along those lines.
    Last edited by hoops_guy; 01-04-2011 at 05:14 AM.
    We need better than solid. No JJ Redicks, Andray Blatche, Mike Dunleavy type guys to have big roles on our team.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Probably because I began the thread with the assumption that we will have a new coach next season.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoops_guy View Post
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    Holy crap, has no one else pointed this out?!

    The reason that Jim O'Brien needs to be gone away and put up forever before the season ends is because firing him now 100% positively, absolutely, and certainly kills any little itsy-bitsy tiny chance of the clown being resigned to a new 4 year contract or something ludicrous along those lines.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Probably because I began the thread with the assumption that we will have a new coach next season.
    Never assume something like that.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    What could be the advantages of firing O'Brien right now vs this summer? I think we all agree that unless the season turns around and turns around now, that Jim will not be back next season.

    So why make a change right now? If it is just to put Vogel in as the head coach, I see very little reason to make a change. But then I'll be honest and say I don't know the current relationship between coach and players. Is it any worse than last season? I don't know. Could the team keep it together and play well in March like they have for 3 years now? Yes.

    Do I think Jim is ruining our young players beyond repair? Of course not, I find that whole line of reasoning absurd.

    Do I think Jim is bringing the young guys along rather well? yes I do.

    I'll go back to my standard position. if the players have quit on Jim, or have tuned him out (more than most coaches), if Jim has "lost the team" to what degree I have no idea, but if that has taken place, then I say make a change now - 50 games are too important not too. But if that has not happened and the players will still respond to his coaching, then I say keep him for this season.

    I see nothing in the rotations, offense - general coaching that should get Jim fired. (not to suggest I like everything he does, but that in itself does not make him a bad coach, nor should that get him fired in the middel of the season) I only fire him now if he has lost the team - although see next paragraph.

    Having said that if for some reason a coach like Mike Brown, JVG or another top coach would rather take over now with the idea that 50 games will be great to evaluate the current players so that the coach can be in a better position to help mold the team in the summer, then I would be in favor of firing Jim now even if he has not lost the team.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-04-2011 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    Never assume something like that.
    This ^^^^^.....if we miss the Playoffs....I can see that there is a much better chance that JO'B won't be re-signed....but what if we do make the Playoffs....even if we barely make the Playoffs....don't you ( as in spazzxb and UB ) think that the FO and/or Bird will think to themselves that if JO'B could FINALLY get us to the Playoffs with this roster that he can take them even further over the next few years?

    To me and many others....I don't think that it's a foregone conclusion that JO'B won't be re-signed....I think that it's a distinct possiblity.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    This ^^^^^.....if we miss the Playoffs....I can see that there is a much better chance that JO'B won't be re-signed....but what if we do make the Playoffs....even if we barely make the Playoffs....don't you ( as in spazzxb and UB ) think that the FO and/or Bird will think to themselves that if JO'B could FINALLY get us to the Playoffs with this roster that he can take them even further over the next few years?

    To me and many others....I don't think that it's a foregone conclusion that JO'B won't be re-signed....I think that it's a distinct possiblity.
    He'll have been here 4 years. It will take making it to the second round of the playoffs for Jim to be re-hired. Keep in mind the default position is not to re-sign him. His contract is up. Good time to make a change. Carlisle was here 4 years, we know Bird has said that 3 or 4 years is about as long as a coach can stick around with one team.

    Can you name the last Pacers NBA head coach to be here more than 4 years? I'll wait it might take awhile for anyone to come up with a name.
    You have to go back to Slick. Edit: in fact it has never happended in the NBA. Slick coached the first 4 years the pacers were in the NBA.

    So I'll ask do some of you really think Jim O'Brien will be the first NBA Pacers coach to last more than 4 seasons? Not going to happen
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-04-2011 at 02:13 PM.

  34. #24
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    but what if we do make the Playoffs....even if we barely make the Playoffs....don't you ( as in spazzxb and UB ) think that the FO and/or Bird will think to themselves that if JO'B could FINALLY get us to the Playoffs with this roster that he can take them even further over the next few years?
    No. I would think if we can see that's probably Jim's ceiling, the FO can see it as well.

    Then again, I don't think Bird and Morway are morons, which might not match with some other opinions
    BillS

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    Default Re: What good would it do?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryheathco View Post
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    I want O'Brien gone as bad as the next guy, but I'm getting so tired of this forum being consumed by fire Jim O'Brien threads. Make it your mood, and comment on the "Official Fire Jim O'Brien thread."
    You can't discuss one without the other. Every discussion leads back to Jim, because he contributes to every area.

    IT would be like trying to talk about WWII without talking about Hitler. No, Jim is not Hitler. It's an analogy, that's all.

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