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Thread: A question for the OB haters

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
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    There was a big reason - Larry Bird saying repeatedly that he expects to make the playoffs every year. I agree. Create a winning culture by doing what you need to do to win. Tanking is a fool's errand.
    Please find where I used the term "tank" or even described it. I'll help you out. I didn't, and I didn't for a reason.

    I didn't say I wanted them to lose, I said I wanted players who are actually part of the future to play and get experience when it really doesn't matter. Thank God Troy Murphy kept getting 30+ mins last year. That has really helped out the team THIS year. Without that extra time for him, I'm just sure the Pacers wouldn't be as good this season......

    McRoberts should have been getting more time last season, period. He's now having to learn on the fly, when he could have learned when the games didn't mean crap.

    It's merely postponing the enevitable.



    If Josh, and other players, would have gotten more burn last year I would have fully expected them to compete at their highest ability. There's no reason to lose on purpose, which is what tanking is.

    But you can start by making a valid logical argument on why Troy needed to play so much, if you want to debate it. That would be a great start/ending point.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Well I’m not an O’Brien hater but I still have a few things to say. And brevity is not my forte.
    Here’s the cliffs note’s version for the anti-JOB crowd…

    http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/pa...a-awards-watch

    Just by virtue of having the Pacers at .500, Jim O’Brien is in the conversation for coach of the year. If you don’t like O’Brien, you better hope the Hornets keep up their strong play!

    Now for more detail…

    People were complaining not too long ago about our motion offense, about how it’s too difficult for players to grasp. Nevermind that we’ve lacked players who are effective at creating off the dribble… But what about acknowledging the payoff once players get closer to figuring it out? This year we had an opposing coach in Doug Collins calling it the best offense in the NBA. During the most recent Cavs-Pacers game (I get Fox Sports Ohio since I’m from the neighboring state), FS Ohio announcer Austin Carr was noting that the Cavs had no idea how to defend all of the Pacers movement and that they looked lost on the defensive end, despite all of that team’s talk the previous few days to improve defensively. After the Miami win…

    http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miam...ers-miami-heat

    Is the talk about how the Pacers have all this great talent? Of course not. “The Pacers aren't the league's most talented roster, but their execution is sublime. They ran the Heat ragged with their clever motion off the ball and smart passes to cutters. Defensively, they challenged every (admittedly predictable) Miami pick-and-roll and controlled the defensive glass.”

    Let me also offer a sincere suggestion to the anti-JOB crowd… if we continue to do well this year, just ignore the coach. As someone who happens to think he is right for this team and, on balance, has done a fine job the past few years all things considered, I really don’t mind him not receiving credit during the good times. But what really irks me is when people go out of their way to say that good things happen in spite of the coach, or that the losses are because of the coach. Here’s an example…

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    IMO, he's still making some head scratching decisions this season, we have just played well enough to overcome some of them.
    So basically what I gather from this is--Credit the players when we win (they had to overcome all of that poor coaching to come out on top!!), blame the coach when we lose. How about in general--Credit the players when we win, and blame the players (including their relative shortcomings compared to other teams, lack of talent, etc.) when we lose? I’m not saying people should completely ignore the coach, but in general I feel as though the pendulum needs to be pushed back in the other direction, away from giving the coach too much credit, and too much blame. Say what you want about JOB, but one positive we can probably agree on is that he shields these players from so much of the heat. I find it laughable how he normally becomes the default scapegoat for losses no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers101 View Post
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    I don't think that JOB is the reason for the defensive imporovements. He was here for 2 years before and we SUCKED. This year his man crush was dealt and he was forced to play a guy at PF who actually plays strong and smart D. The past 2 years we would get killed on D because of Murphy. JOB never figured out that playing Troy close to 40 mins a game was a huge mistake.
    How has it SUCKED? We’ve had top 15 defensive placements in terms of points allowed per 100 possessions under O’Brien. As I pointed out before in My Case for JOB, John Hollinger (love him or hate him) noted how we stayed “surprisingly respectable” on the defensive end. We most certainly improved defensively in 07-08 compared to the final 44 games of the 06-07 season under Carlisle following the trade for murphleavy. We were by no means a great defensive team the past 3 years, but relatively speaking we weren’t bad. We were in the middle class (and achieved above average defensive outcomes last year), despite an influx of youth, roster turnover, key injuries, Hibbert’s struggles with rebounding and with defending outside-shooting bigs like Spencer Hawes and Mehmet Okur, and poor 1 on 1 defenders like Murphy and Dunleavy. Indeed, if we did not have a defensive-minded, demanding, detail-oriented coach like O’Brien the past few years we could have easily been one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. But this year with further player development, I think this team is ready to stake out a claim as one of the elite defensive teams in the NBA, despite not really having top notch talent. This is a place to either give the coach credit, or to take my suggestion by saying nothing about the coach. But at the very least, defense is not a topic where O’Brien is deserving of criticism.

    I have a different take on our improvements on the defensive end. I keep hearing everyone say it’s primarily due to Murphy’s departure. I don’t really buy that. Let’s use some statistics as a guide. Last season we were 26th in opponent Free throw rate (FT/FGA), and this year we are also at 26th. Last season our opponent turnover percentage was .134, this season it is slightly lower at .133 (last year we were 14th, but this season we are 21st). Last season opponents shot .363 from threes against us, this year they are shooting .356 (opponents were .361 going into the Lakers game, which is below average like .363 was). So what has improved significantly then? By far it’s the rebounding rate. Last season we were 22nd in Defensive Rebounding percentage, this year we are 5th. Our committee of power forwards have provided comparable rebounding production to Murphy’s strong rebounding from a year ago. But Roy Hibbert? Last season he averaged an eddy curryish 8.2 rebounds per 36 minutes, but this year he is averaging 11.4 per 36. This. Is. HUGE. And this isn’t just a hypothetical projection since he’s routinely playing more than 30 minutes when he’s not in foul trouble. Hibbert’s much-improved agility and conditioning have clearly helped his rebounding ability and has also enabled him to block a higher percentage of shots. And my hunch… I don’t think Hibbert would have dropped from 14% body fat to 8% without direct prodding from his coach. I’m guessing that behind the scenes O’Brien straight up told Hibbert that he had to improve his agility and conditioning if he wanted to be a full-time starting center in this league. Hibbert definitely deserves the lion’s share of the credit for having the great work ethic to pull this off. But if we had more of a “player coach” in here who wasn’t so direct, I doubt that Hibbert would have gone to such extreme lengths (of course, it’s a completely separate issue if people are not happy with Hibbert’s improved conditioning this year and truly prefer “Big” Roy from years past).

    Also consider our opponents two point field goal %... As I noted in my Case for JOB, we’ve done a good job at protecting the middle during O’Brien’s time here and this is primarily due to our strategy of team defense and covering for one another. Last season we were in a three way tie for 4th in the NBA in opponents two point field goal % .... This season? We are in first place (at .446, second place is over a full point behind us at .459).

    http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...-two-point-pct

    Maybe our jump from 4th to 1st can be slightly attributed to Murphy’s departure, but again, I think it is primarily due to Roy Hibbert’s improved agility and rebounding. This year unlike last, we are giving opponents fewer offensive rebounds and second chance opportunities to improve their percentages. And Roy is also blocking more shots. But back to O’Brien… it’s not like McRoberts/Posey/Hansbrough and Hibbert/Solo is the most intimidating frontcourt in the NBA. Maybe on paper it’s above average… but by virtue of having a coach who employs a strategy of TEAM control of the middle, we are consistently in the position of overachieving defensively with respect to our ability to protect the basket.

    So primarily due to our improved rebounding (which can mostly be attributed to Hibbert), we have jumped from 14th in the NBA a year ago in opponents points per 100 possessions to 4th best so far this year.

    This is why I felt like revisiting O’Brien’s tenure with Boston and Philly. I’m sure that others probably remember more about those teams than I do… but if people had any understanding of those teams they would not be questioning whether or not O’Brien is a good defensive coach. Unfortunately instead, what a lot of people do is they look at O’Brien not playing a guy like Dahntay Jones as evidence that he doesn’t value defense. And regardless of a person’s feelings on guys like Murphy and Dunleavy, they were here when O’Brien got here and he was forced to do the best he could with the raw material available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    "Pax O'Briena - Detente" continues to hold for the second game in my sector.
    I still believe that the Orlando loss was on O'Brien. Anything good that he did during that game was irrelevant because it did not come in a winning effort, and his lack of seeing that the guys didn't have the legs to both shoot 3's and play with the defensive intensity that they had to that game to be competitive was pretty much a failure to adjust, which cost them the game. That was the third game to the minus side for O'Brien so far this season in my view.
    Winning the second of the back to back in convincing fashion is indicative of a maturation of the team in its effort to continue implementing the changes that have been made by O'Brien, to his credit, this season.
    The defense is far better than any previously played under O'Brien during his time here, and of all things I think Danny being dissed by Team USA due to lack of defensive effort has a lot to do with his current much improved defensive play, coupled with a much more agressive Rush being better on both ends of the floor.
    The offense is also improved, due to TJ Ford and Rush playing better, Granger being healthy, and doses of Hibbert being thrown in for good measure against teams who choose to let him score instead of Granger. Also, there have been periods where there has been good ball and player movement, which is probably due to a focus change in an effort to get Roy the ball more than he has had it in the past.
    Stay tuned for further updates to the evolving story..."Pax O'Briena - Detente".
    Well in the Orlando game, Hibbert was triple teamed when he got the ball inside of a minute (this was the play out of the timeout that O’Brien called for him), so he made the correct decision to pass it back out to Posey who drained the three. On the next play, Granger had Hibbert open on the same play but decided to reverse it back to Posey. It’s not like we weren’t looking for Hibbert but Orlando is the best defensive team in the NBA. I don’t know how one blames that loss on the coach, agree to disagree I guess. And maybe the Orlando game isn’t the best one to lament so many 3 pointers, since Orlando attempted more than 300 3 pointers than we did a year ago .

    As for the Granger USA snub… it’s funny how everyone is running with this now as the primary catalyst… but what about how he was in excruciating pain last year with a debilitating injury with the plantar fascia? This clearly affected his offensive efficiencies and his play on defense. Or as I noted in my Case for JOB, when Granger came into the league he was a role player. Then under O’Brien he was expected to become the alpha dog on offense since we didn’t have any other options. Now that he’s got the scoring thing down pat, I think this is just a natural part of his development as he strives to consistently be a well-rounded player, and his coach has continually prodded him in that direction. I’m not saying the Team USA Experience played no role here, but implicit in statements like these I feel there is a strong hint of “it’s not the coach, it’s the players.” But then when we lose, it’s time to blame the coach once again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Danny has always been able to play defense, the fact he decided to play defense the past 4 games I think shows more about his experience on Team USA than JOB.
    Rush's play has little to do with JOB and more about him waking up which I accredit to Granger.
    I honestly don't see how our PG play has improved that much, it may be better, but it isn't difference maker better.
    I think you are underestimating the affect Murphy had on this team. He was that big of a detriment to this team. He was a bad example to everyone. Him playing showed to everyone that defense doesn't matter.
    This team played a lot like they are right now last year when Murphy wasn't playing.
    Also keep in mind last year at this point this team had a 6-7 record. Also we only beat Miami, it isn't like we blew out Boston, LA, or Orlando. It was Miami. They may have 2 of the top 5 individual players on their team, but they are not a complete team. If you can shut down either Wade or Lebron you are going to win 9 times out of 10. Once you get past those two players they have no one worth mentioning.
    If you don’t want to give the coach credit that’s fine, but sometimes I feel there is a double standard (not saying from you necessarily, eleazar, but in general)--people run with the same tired talking points about how “JOB is poor at developing players.” Then, as players improve, not only will people give the coach zero credit, but they’ll STILL say that JOB is poor at developing players. As if it’s a fluke that the 2nd Pacer in 3 years could win Most Improved Player award this year (really should be 3 out of last 4 but Dunleavy was robbed in 07-08).
    And as for Miami… Heh, you make it sound so easy to shut down 2 of the top 5 players in basketball! As for their supporting cast, funny how Big Z had Big Roy’s number in that first quarter. He looked like the better player during that stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Even the losses have been competitive compared to last year. You are seeing good teams struggle to beat us. That was not the case last year...or the previous year. It was an easy victory for both good and average teams. That is no longer the case.
    Do you forget that we were the team a couple of years ago to defeat both Boston and the Lakers? Last season without Granger, we go into San Antonio and lose by a point, without Granger we go into Boston and hold them to 38% shooting and have the game even through 3 quarters before we lose at the end. Then by early March when it looked like all of the adversity would get the best of us, O’Brien sent the message loud and clear that there are no moral victories, it’s “irrelevant” when not in a winning effort. And we went 12-10 after that and built something positive heading into this season. Now you hear it from the players, they have heeded the messages. Fight like wolves, there are no moral victories. So what if we lose to a good team in a close game, we still lost. THAT attitude primarily stems from the coach imho. He’s been installing this mindset from day one.
    It’s been posted on here before but I’ll post it again. Si.com’s Pacers preview from a month ago which featured an opposing scout’s take on the Pacers. This scout sums it up perfectly:
    “Other teams have more talent, but the Pacers will have a better record than they should because of Jim O'Brien, depending on how long he stays with them. I don't know how anybody can say he's not a good a coach. Maybe he doesn't have the best relationships with his players, but he gets players to play hard. They've won games they had no business winning over the last two years.”

    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz16hUBEMa8

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    lets not forget he cost us the Bucks game. His end of game plans and plays sucks. and how does tyler not play the 1st half then start the 2nd. His rotations are wack
    He cost us the Bucks game? LOL. What about the players? Rotations are wack? Funny how Doc Rivers received the same criticism of his rotations with the Celtics in 06-07, yet a year later when he’s got great talent this was no longer an issue. But when you don’t have first rate talent, things are always going to be in flux (and you factor in significant injuries), then OF COURSE the rotations will seem inconsistent or erratic from an outside perspective. As an example, Look at Paul Westphal with the Kings about 10 days ago…

    http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/19/319...-starting.html

    “What a week it's been for Donté Greene.
    As recently as Tuesday, it appeared there wouldn't be much playing available for the third-year forward.
    Tonight, Greene is back in the starting lineup and will be for the "foreseeable future," said Kings coach Paul Westphal.
    It's been a tough start to the season for Greene. After being chided for showing up to training camp out of shape, Greene managed to earn the starting job at small forward for the Oct. 27 season opener in Minnesota.
    He was benched for the next game in New Jersey in favor of Omri Casspi and didn't play in five of the next eight games.
    "A whole lot of frustration," is how Greene described that span. "I felt like my rookie year was coming back, and I wasn't happy for a while."
    Greene got his chance Wednesday against New York. In 20 minutes, he scored eight points and provided much-needed energy on defense. Greene blames himself for being out of the rotation and says he's worked to fix that.”

    Wow! Westphal’s rotations are wack! Hey, things change. Coaches change their minds. I bet if Westphal were our coach (or really, no matter who our coach was), we’d be hearing the same criticisms.
    As for Tyler starting the second half, O’Brien probably decided to give him playing time since we were up by 25. If it were a close game I’m guessing he would have stuck with McRoberts. This is another example… O’Brien made the decision to give Hansbrough some PT for developmental sake, and you’re making an issue of it? With some people, O’Brien can never win.


    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    JOB playing Murphy at center lost some games too.
    We were 3-4 in games last year where Murphy started at center. I went through every one of them in my Case for JOB. As for other games where he didn’t start at center but played center in short spurts, remember that Jeff Foster was hurt and Solo isn’t exactly an appealing option. Mike Wells even admitted in a blog that the “small ball” lineups were effective at times at helping us get back into games. For example, there was the come from behind victory vs Toronto in January where Murphy at center in the second half got us back in the game and we went on to win it. I’ve always found this Murphy at center critique to be more about symbolism rather than substance—and more of a commentary on our lack of talent that O’Brien had to deal with things like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Um...the team was 5-0 without Murphy and 1-7 with him at that stage.
    I think that is extremely misleading with all due respect. I went through this entire period in great detail in my Case for JOB… During that 5-0 stretch we beat the Knicks and Nets, and they were the 2 worst teams in the NBA out of the gate. We did beat the Celtics, but we also beat the Celtics and Lakers in 08-09 with Murphy as our starting PF. Boston still shot a good percentage against us, but Granger was on fire that game and we were even better. Also in game 9, before Murphy even came back we lost to the Knicks at home, which was a good indication that ANY lineup would have likely struggled to find season-long consistency. In the first 3 games of the season Hibbert was smoked by Horford, J O’Neal and Nene. Then when Murphy returned the schedule got much tougher as we played at Cleveland and headed out West, where Hibbert struggled against perimeter-oriented centers. Then Granger went from hurt to injured and missed about 20 games, further compounding our struggles. The whole blame Troy Murphy thing has always been overstated imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I think the team overachieved while underachieving all at the same time.
    There was no reason to be in "win now mode" when they clearly didn't have the roster to do anything with the wins, considering they weren't going to win enough to even make the playoffs. Sure they won a few more games than what the roster should have won. Congrats.
    Instead of losing a few more games and letting a player like Josh develop, or even AJ, we are now having to do it this season on the fly. In the long run, it actually hurt the franchise more, than it helped it.
    I’ve never understood this one… So sometimes the O’Brien bashers will point to our 104-142 record during his 3 year tenure as coach, and say he didn’t win enough, didn’t make the playoffs, etc. so he needs to go. But then when it gets pointed out that we could have easily been 70-176 given our lack of talent and injuries to key players, then the rationale for wanting him gone… is not that he won too few, but too many games!!
    I’ve always disagreed with this mantra about how “developing” players is about entitling them to guaranteed playing time just because they are under 25. I think it comes back to a team’s culture, of being in the habit and the EXPECTATION of winning NOW. Take the example of how Indiana and Minnesota finished off last season. Give me the choice between Indiana’s 12-10 finish which led to 10th pick Paul George, and Minnesota’s 1-23 finish which led to 4th pick Wesley Johnson… I’m taking Indiana’s 12-10 finish every time. Do you know what Minnesota developed from that 1-23 finish? Do you know what they learned? They learned that they are losers, and they are going to remain losers. That’s all that was reinforced for them. Once a franchise falls into that trap of no longer caring who wins the next game, and only concerns itself with the “future”, they are only dooming themselves to further fail.

    And it’s not like O’Brien is opposed to playing young players… last season (as sad as it is), Brandon Rush led our team in minutes played. A.J. Price got a legit opportunity to play many more minutes than his draft order would normally have merited, and O’Brien even benched Ford at one point in favor of Price even though Ford makes 16 times his salary. McRoberts was given the opportunity to start games as early as December. This guy reportedly fell out of favor almost immediately with Portland because of his attitude, but O’Brien has given him the chance to work his way up and now he’s starting. Hibbert is much further along by year 3 than most people expected.

    This whole idea of playing for the “future”… sounds good on paper, in theory. But is it realistic? So should Houston just not play Yao Ming since he is likely not a part of their future? Should Detroit not play Tayshaun Prince and just give 40 minutes to Austin Daye? Is Mike D’Antoni in the wrong for benching Anthony Randolph? Hey, Randolph is supposed to be about the future, so play him 35 mpg regardless of his level of focus and attention to detail? You could play this game with any head coach of the league and use it as criticism. Avery Johnson now… Terrence Williams is getting much less playing time compared to a year ago, and now is even being demoted to the D-League! And as for the criticism of playing a guy like Dunleavy right now… much to the chagrin of a lot of folks, it’s not set in stone that Dunleavy will not be back. He may find that he’s most comfortable here and sign for maybe $3 or $4 million a year for 2 or 3 years.

    I’ll also add… when people make a big fuss about A.J. Price not playing right now, they should realize they are paying Jim O’Brien a compliment. It’s probably the biggest compliment you could pay the guy and I love it when people harp on this. It’s not even a criticism; my hunch--most coaches would also be playing Collison and Ford at this stage with Price as the odd man out. Price’s time will come… if not this year then next year.

    No one will admit this but I think the entire perception of O’Brien would be much improved if we had made the playoffs in year 1. That’s how arbitrary so much of the O’Brien criticism is. We had Jermaine O’Neal and Jamaal Tinsley for 60 combined fewer games in 07-08 compared to the season prior, yet we still only finished one game back of the Hawks for the 8 spot despite having Travis Diener down the stretch at point guard instead of a Mike Bibby or Andre Miller (7th seed Philly). This could have easily been a 20 win team, but we nearly made the playoffs in year 1.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbert View Post
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    The 2006-07 Boston Celtics finished 24-58. The very next year the 2007-08 team finished 66-16 and won the NBA Championship. That's worse than the Pacers were last year to being the best and winning the title. Going from worst to first can happen and has happened very recently. Anything can happen.

    I do expect us to win every game, I always have, call it what you will but I feel that way moreso this year than any since Reggie retired. If JOB could adjust at halftime just like the other teams do and keep Roy down low and keep him in the game, we can win any game this year. Good coached have their teams prepared and ready for anything and everything, they make adjustments and counter what the other team is doing, I haven't seen that from JOB at all in his time here.
    Sorry, but you are completely unrealistic.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSwanson View Post
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    I’ve never understood this one… So sometimes the O’Brien bashers will point to our 104-142 record during his 3 year tenure as coach, and say he didn’t win enough, didn’t make the playoffs, etc. so he needs to go. But then when it gets pointed out that we could have easily been 70-176 given our lack of talent and injuries to key players, then the rationale for wanting him gone… is not that he won too few, but too many games!!
    First off, you're combining arguments/ideas from different posters and trying to fit everyone in a nice little square box. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

    You can't take my comments and attribute them to, say, Sookie. Just because we agree that Jim isn't the right coach, doesn't mean that I agree with everything she thinks/says nor does she agree with everything I think/say.

    Very few posters actually think Jim should have won more games with this roster. Talent is/was lacking. There's no denying it.

    But just like there are extremes on every side of the argument. And just because there is an extreme doesn't discredit the entire argument.




    Quote Originally Posted by DonSwanson View Post
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    I’ve always disagreed with this mantra about how “developing” players is about entitling them to guaranteed playing time just because they are under 25. I think it comes back to a team’s culture, of being in the habit and the EXPECTATION of winning NOW.
    Entitling them??? Oh my, where to begin......

    We can talk about entitlements, but we have to go back before Jim ever coached his first game with the Pacers. How many times in that preseason did we hear him say things like "If you can't practice you won't be playing in games. Blah blah blah blah?"

    And then come to find out that JO not only was playing, but starting, all while he WASN'T PRACTICING.

    Or we can dive back into the discussion on how he treated AJ last year, giving him DNP-CDs, then getting some minutes due to injuries/sickness/personal time only to play well, and then go straight back to the bench with the quote "Now we know what he has blah blah blah?"

    How many times did we ***** and moan about how Roy would routinely foul out with 4 freaking fouls so we could watch Rasho lug his slow *** up and down the court?

    You want to talk about entitlement? How about how TJ didn't even play 7minutes of preseason, due to a hamstring injury, ut yet was magically the back-up PG with AJ not even dressing. Or how about how when DC came back from his ankle injury, only to reinjure in the that game, but AJ was still sitting on the sideline in street clothes?

    The smart man realizes that you have a player just coming off injury, and players often reinjure themselves right after they come back so you might need more than one backup available?

    I don't give a **** about entitling anyone. I think you make decisions based on need, or based on ability. I don't care if AJ was picked in the 2nd round, or the 10th round. If he deserves to play, he should play. If a player is injured, he should play.

    The whole idea that just because he shouldn't play, because he was a 2nd round pick is as stupid as saying PG should play, because he was the 10th pick. You don't earn your spot by where you were drafted. You also don't get demoted because of where you were drafted.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSwanson View Post
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    Take the example of how Indiana and Minnesota finished off last season. Give me the choice between Indiana’s 12-10 finish which led to 10th pick Paul George, and Minnesota’s 1-23 finish which led to 4th pick Wesley Johnson… I’m taking Indiana’s 12-10 finish every time. Do you know what Minnesota developed from that 1-23 finish? Do you know what they learned? They learned that they are losers, and they are going to remain losers. That’s all that was reinforced for them. Once a franchise falls into that trap of no longer caring who wins the next game, and only concerns itself with the “future”, they are only dooming themselves to further fail.
    Yeah, you're right. I'm sure those last 22 games completely changed their self-identity that was established from the prior 60 games.

    Please tell me how playing Troy Murphy 30+mins last year benefited THIS team, THIS year. It's impossible to do. Troy Murphy can't even get off the freaking bench in NJ but when he's here, he's dubbed the 2nd most valuable player on the squad.

    If your entire teams identity is shaped, because of 22 games, then there are a lot bigger problems going on.

    And if you actually take a look at some of the box scores from those 22 games, I think you'd be interested to see who was actually playing.

    Here is just some random sampling.

    3/30 vs. Kings
    Josh McRoberts - 14:17
    AJ Price - 12:58 - 3

    3/12 vs Celtics
    Josh McRoberts 22:12
    AJ Price 16:16

    4/9 vs Cavs
    Josh McRoberts 19:35
    AJ Price 14:41


    I can continue, but I think my point is clear. YOUNGER PLAYERS!!! Younger players that are actually on the team this year getting minutes!!!!

    No, I'm not saying AJ Price and/or McRoberts makes or breaks the team. I'm saying this season is just a continuation of what started last season.

    The 12-10 finish is closer to the infamous 5 game winning streak, and what is happening this year. You know, the EXACT things we *****ed and moaned about, saying Jim should be doing when Josh/AJ was planted on the bench.

    That 12-10 record proves MY point. Not yours.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Are you kidding me? If we had Josh or Price in that play last night we probably would not have made that Hibbert dunk.


    As with Troy Murphy- you realize you want him to start coming back from two injuries in a row? And that's somehow his fault that he can't start after being injured? And that now he's seeing the floor again?

    Are you joking?

    Younger players getting minutes SMH. You think Paul George getting burn is worth noting having a potential franchise changing team stretch in which we play 3-2 and feel great about the team?

    Since when has there been a concrete link that minutes = good development for players? Look at Collison and Thornton- tons of minutes, tons of playing time last season- bad seasons this year. What about Mario Chalmers? All that uproar over him starting for a bad Miami team and now he's seeing less play than Eddie House and Arroyo.

    Come on- there is no reason to be upset at not playing the youth. Game experience is not the same as winning experience.


    Or did you think that Granger would have improved more if he saw playing time in TEAM USA over the summer?

    Sometimes sitting in the bench can be very good. Even though Granger is better than Iggy- look at how much Granger improved from just sitting on the TEAM USA bench this year.


    This whole "OMG HE IS TERRIBLE AND STUPID FOR NOT PLAYING THE YOUTH AND INSTEAD PLAYING TO WIN GAMES TO TRY TO CREATE A WINNING CULTURE" needs to stop. Look- what was most important to the development of Roy and Granger this year- more minutes last year or a taste of winning culture and hard work this year?


    I think the case is pretty clear right now.

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  10. #106

    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Since when has there been a concrete link that minutes = good development for players? Look at Collison and Thornton- tons of minutes, tons of playing time last season- bad seasons this year. What about Mario Chalmers? All that uproar over him starting for a bad Miami team and now he's seeing less play than Eddie House and Arroyo.
    Some young players benefit from being force-fed minutes, some see their development hurt by that and in most cases it has no influence whatsoever.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    There are always exceptions, but in general you don't really gt better without actually playing. You can only learn so much in practice, and one of the things you can't completely appreciate in practice is game speed. As much as coaches and players try to play at game speed in practice you can never truly play at game speed. That is why you have people who are "practice people" they somehow play great in practice, but kind of suck in games.

    When it comes to McRoberts and Price though my displeasure with their playing time has little to do with developing them. my displeasure is that McRoberts was the best PF on the team last year, and Price was the best at running the offense on this team last year.


    DonSwanson

    When it comes to coaches you have to separate the play of individual players from the coaches, especially at the NBA level. Consider that Rush was never once in Indy or with anyone from the team all summer. How much affect do you think the coach can have if they are on opposite sides of the country? His improvement didn't happen under JOB it happened on his own away from the team.

    What you can judge a coach on is how he uses players, and which players he uses.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    There are always exceptions, but in general you don't really gt better without actually playing. You can only learn so much in practice, and one of the things you can't completely appreciate in practice is game speed. As much as coaches and players try to play at game speed in practice you can never truly play at game speed. That is why you have people who are "practice people" they somehow play great in practice, but kind of suck in games.

    When it comes to McRoberts and Price though my displeasure with their playing time has little to do with developing them. my displeasure is that McRoberts was the best PF on the team last year, and Price was the best at running the offense on this team last year.


    DonSwanson

    When it comes to coaches you have to separate the play of individual players from the coaches, especially at the NBA level. Consider that Rush was never once in Indy or with anyone from the team all summer. How much affect do you think the coach can have if they are on opposite sides of the country? His improvement didn't happen under JOB it happened on his own away from the team.

    What you can judge a coach on is how he uses players, and which players he uses.
    Your unhappy with Mcroberts playing time? Sorry I just figured out what your trying to do.
    have fun in the past. This years team kicks @**
    Last edited by spazzxb; 11-29-2010 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Your unhappy with Mcroberts playing time? Sorry I just figured out what your trying to do.
    have fun in the past. This years team kicks @**

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    you always put so much content into your post. Meaningful, well thought out viewpoints with such substance.

    You see I responded to a message about Mcroberts playing time without reading everything(my bad), I then edited said post once I realized there was a conversation about last year going on. Last year really is irrelevant but I needed to delete my post or explain my mistake I guess you don't like my choice. Anyways, have fun hating on coach.

  15. #111

    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Is it fair to blame Jim for the losses, but not give him credit for the wins. I don't blame the coach for losses or give him credit for the wins, but many of you tend to blame Jim for the losses. (disclaimer: I know each game is different, just talking in general terms)

    I think a coaches value is way overrated for what they do during the games, and way underrated for what they do all other times.
    I think coaches lose far more games than they win.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I think coaches lose far more games than they win.
    In Indiana recently, truer words have never been spoken.

    These wins are coming in spite of, not because of Jim. They tried to do it against OKC too, but Jim was just too detrimental.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    In Indiana recently, truer words have never been spoken.

    These wins are coming in spite of, not because of Jim. They tried to do it against OKC too, but Jim was just too detrimental.
    wow, if this were green you wouldn't have been thanked. I can't take this seriously but am simply amazed someone is.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    wow, if this were green you wouldn't have been thanked. I can't take this seriously but am simply amazed someone is.
    I don't care if you take me seriously or not, but that post was in no way sarcasm.

    Jim killed us against the Thunder.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    I'm going to make this short. Flox, I'm not going to debate any topic with you.

    I disagree with every fiber of my being, and that's all I have to say.

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  22. #116

    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    In Indiana recently, truer words have never been spoken.

    These wins are coming in spite of, not because of Jim. They tried to do it against OKC too, but Jim was just too detrimental.
    I think it's true for all coaches, really.

    Coaches can put the right players in the game, call the right plays, make the right adjustments..but it's the players that either play well or not or execute or not. That's not a coach winning the ball game, that's a coach not losing a ball game..essentially though, it's up to the players.

    However, if a coach plays the wrong players, calls the wrong plays, and makes the wrong adjustments..he loses the game. Sure, sometimes it comes through and there's a win. But the team loses, it's on the coach..because the coach didn't put the team in position to win.

    Is that fair? No, but I think it's true. It's sort of like reffing in a sense. Either the refs make the right calls..which is what they are supposed to do, or the make bad calls, and they're bad.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    All I want for Christmas, is a thread where we don't talk about Jim O'Brien.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    I've never understood that sentiment.

    Jim is the PACERS headcoach. This is a PACERS board. What else would you expect us to talk about, the weather? Sure it gets old, but you opened a thread titled "A question for the OB haters"

    Pretty clear what the topic is going to be......

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  26. #119
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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    I know, but literally any thread can turn into a JOB thread. I honestly expect my "Should we send George to the d-league?" thread to turn into a JOB thread. Every once and a while I just need to voice my feeling on this, and I will pick a random thread to comment on it in because honestly I could probably say it in just about every thread on the board.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    I think the team is doing much better recently, and a lot of people are saying that it's just because the team finally bought into the game plan. From that perspective, I guess I'd like to see how JOB does for the rest of the season.

    Having said that, I still feel like JOB doesn't do nearly enough to campaign on the court for his players. Rick Carlisle understood the power of getting a technical foul to let the refs (and maybe more importantly, the players) know that you've had enough of them blowing calls against your players. I feel like we've seen many more bad calls against the Pacers under Jim than we did under Carlisle, Bird, or Thomas. In fact, Jim doesn't even really get worked up or lobby this year, he just talks to his players and lets it slide. I guess you could take the stance that he's helping his young guys not be emotional and let the refs get into their heads, but at some point enough is enough, especially concerning Roy getting mugged on the inside.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    I think the team is doing much better recently, and a lot of people are saying that it's just because the team finally bought into the game plan. From that perspective, I guess I'd like to see how JOB does for the rest of the season.

    Having said that, I still feel like JOB doesn't do nearly enough to campaign on the court for his players. Rick Carlisle understood the power of getting a technical foul to let the refs (and maybe more importantly, the players) know that you've had enough of them blowing calls against your players. I feel like we've seen many more bad calls against the Pacers under Jim than we did under Carlisle, Bird, or Thomas. In fact, Jim doesn't even really get worked up or lobby this year, he just talks to his players and lets it slide. I guess you could take the stance that he's helping his young guys not be emotional and let the refs get into their heads, but at some point enough is enough, especially concerning Roy getting mugged on the inside.
    I don't remember if it was preseason or an early home game this season, but Jim DID kick the ball down the sideline in frustration and earned a technical. It was pretty fantastic, IMO.

    Most of the times I've been frustrated has been Hibbert not getting calls down the stretch. It seems he always gets hacked down the stretch (when he's in) without a foul call. In those instances I'm glad Jim has kept his cool and not dug the hole any deeper.
    Passion. Pride. Patience. Pacers

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    I'm not going to read this entire thread. Too many people have deep seated hatred for Obie at this point to give him credit for anything. Personally, I love the way the team is playing this year. My main complaint last year when I leapt onto the "Fire JOB" bandwagon was that the players looked like they had completely checked out on him. This year they are playing hard, the chemistry is reputed to be at an all-time high for this group of players, the defense is extremely effective...I mean, how much complaining can you possibly do at this point? Do you really think this team would be playing at a higher level under a different coach? I'm just going to enjoy us playing well, because quite frankly I don't care who is coaching the team, if we are playing well and winning, then I am happy. I have things that I would like to see (Price over Ford, more Tyler at times, etc), but whatever we are doing right now is working. Who am I to question success?

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    So 15 games erases 3 years of poor coaching?

    Jim is doing the things that we've been pleading for him to do for years now. And just suddenly, magically, he does it? Does anyone else not think that if Troy doesn't get traded, Josh doesn't see the floor? I know I do.

    Jim's hand was forced. He already plays Posey at his max, atleast IMHO, and if he had another player just like Troy, he would be getting the PT. This isn't what decisions Jim made, this is about the options that Larry took away from him.

    We still see TJ closing out games, with Posey right there next to him.

    I'm not confident that these "changes" are permanent ones. I think he just has no other options. Sure, I'm happy to see the new Pacers, but I don't think it will last if Jim is given other options. 15 games doesn't erase 3years of ****ty decision making.

    You can call it blind "hate," but it's reality whether you like it or not.

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  33. #124
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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So 15 games erases 3 years of poor coaching?

    Jim is doing the things that we've been pleading for him to do for years now. And just suddenly, magically, he does it? Does anyone else not think that if Troy doesn't get traded, Josh doesn't see the floor? I know I do.

    Jim's hand was forced. He already plays Posey at his max, atleast IMHO, and if he had another player just like Troy, he would be getting the PT. This isn't what decisions Jim made, this is about the options that Larry took away from him.

    We still see TJ closing out games, with Posey right there next to him.

    I'm not confident that these "changes" are permanent ones. I think he just has no other options. Sure, I'm happy to see the new Pacers, but I don't think it will last if Jim is given other options. 15 games doesn't erase 3years of ****ty decision making.

    You can call it blind "hate," but it's reality whether you like it or not.
    Oh no, it's blind hate for sure.

    Fact is McBoB WASN"T READY.
    Hibbert DIDN"T DO WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO enough of the time. And he didn't rebound enough.
    So happy you're so sure of yourself that OB is "doing what you've always wanted", the REAL coach has to ACTUALLY WAIT until the PLAYER IS READY to play..........

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Why wasn't Josh ready? At some point in time you either have to throw him in the water and find out if he can swim.

    Yes, you can learn by sitting on the bench and watching. But you can only learn so much. I'm sure most on this board, given a hypothetical situation can pick the correct course of action, even within multiple coaching schemes. Whether or not they have the phsyical ability to do it is what matters, and you can't find that out by sitting.

    Let's be honest here. Hibbert didn't magically change the way he played the game, nor did he magically develop into a different player. He learned what was going to be called a foul, and what wasn't. You do that by trial and error. You do it by reptition. You do it by gaining a reputation, and even relationship with officials. You do it by PLAYING.

    During his rookie season the talk is always about how he was in foul trouble and how he took himself out of games. No, he very rarely routinely fouled out per NBA rules. Jim fouled him out by sitting him on the bench and not letting him up when he reached 4 or 5. You can play until you get 6 I do believe. I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again, but I'm 100% certain that's the rule.


    You can have the smartest player in the world, but if they aren't able to actually do it on the floor, it's pointless.

    Josh isn't doing anything different than what he did last year. But last year it was "irrelevent." Do you see a change? I sure don't. Sure he's reined in his foul trouble, but like I said, you do that by playing. That's the final step.


    As much as UB and Bill used to complain about how the "anti" JOb crowd was over the deep end, the spectrum has definately shifted in the other direction. At this point in time I'm confident a couple of posters would come in defense of Jim if I said his farts stink.

    There has to be a balance with sitting and playing. I've never said you don't learn anything from watching. Can you atleast admit that at some point in time you have to actually find out if they sink or swim on the floor? I doubt it.

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