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Thread: A question for the OB haters

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    There are better ways to tell how good a coach is than just the win-lose record. Does anyone think Caldwell is as good as Dungy or one of the best coaches in football because he has a great team, no. They see the bad decisions, the degrading of discipline, and all the mistakes he as a coach makes. Yet his team still wins because his team has talent and play as a team. At certain point you have to separate the talent from the coach and ask, is this team playing well because the coach is getting them to overachieve or is this team playing well because of the talent this team has and could they play better under a better coach? When I get the chance to watch this team what I see is a poorly coached team that gets by on talent.
    I didn't say a single word about the win-loss record, not sure where you got that from out of my post.

    You watch this team and see a poorly coached team that gets by with it's superior talent? Alright man, whatever. We are going to have to disagree and leave it at that.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by maragin View Post
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    The "open your eyes" comment is unnecessary.

    I'm not cherry picking arguments. Quite the opposite. I'm looking at Jim's entire body of work. The team has played reasonably well through 13 games. The team has not been good enough in the previous 246 games. To say that is due to Jim O'Brien alone would be incorrect. To completely discount his role would also be foolish.

    There's not enough evidence, for me, to overturn the years of data we have. This season will be a fine test of what he can accomplish.

    To another point, I'm not knocking Pacers optimism. I think we as fans have a lot to be excited about, though some of us are a bit more cautious with said optimism. Personally, I take inventory of the team at the 20 game mark, and then at the All-Star break.

    Now if we win against the Lakers Sunday...
    I also prefaced that by saying if you honestly believe the optimism stems from only a 2 game evaluation. The comment had to do with the respect you are giving to the views of people who are optimistic and the fact that there was reason to be optimistic before those games even happened. "Open your eyes" conveyed exactly what I wanted to convey.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Is it fair to blame Jim for the losses, but not give him credit for the wins. I don't blame the coach for losses or give him credit for the wins, but many of you tend to blame Jim for the losses. (disclaimer: I know each game is different, just talking in general terms)

    I think a coaches value is way overrated for what they do during the games, and way underrated for what they do all other times.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Allright. I don't see this going anywhere of value. I don't really want to spend so much time discussing difference between 'probably' and 'certainly' in a sentence of little importance to the thread.

    English is not my first languague, not even second, so sometimes I use a word that isn't necessary to make my point. As long as people understand my main point, I'm cool. And in that case the post wasn't about what forums NBA coaches read. Lets just leave it at that.
    Ballism, I wasn't trying to pick on you with my initial response. Just tried to use it as an opportunity to point out that fans often lose sight (in their frustrations) of how much knowledge and experience NBA coaches do have and how silly we sometimes are when we presume to know more. It doesn't mean coaches always push the right button, but I prefer trying to understand the context for their decisions and what other variables are contributing to the whole.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Part Timer View Post
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    Ballism, I wasn't trying to pick on you with my initial response. Just tried to use it as an opportunity to point out that fans often lose sight (in their frustrations) of how much knowledge and experience NBA coaches do have and how silly we sometimes are when we presume to know more. It doesn't mean coaches always push the right button, but I prefer trying to understand the context for their decisions and what other variables are contributing to the whole.
    Fair enough.
    It was a bit suspicious wording on my part anyway, it comes mainly from my original language. We use equivalent of 'maybe' instead of 'in my opinion', so there may be some confusions when I try to write fast and just translate my thoughts straight up. There are quite a lot of dangerous translations actually. I try to be careful with my main points, but when it comes to 'secondary' thoughts, a flow of words, there may be some puzzling expressions.

    Anyway, my point there was, to put it simply, that - while O'Brien is an experienced coach - some of his decisions, substitution patterns, motivational efforts have been rather suspicious, and shouldn't be excused just because the talent had been sub-par.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Fair enough.
    It was a bit suspicious wording on my part anyway, it comes mainly from my original language.
    I didn't even notice you were a foreign poster until you made the above comment.

    I wish people that speak English as their original language could communicate as well as you do.
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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Is it fair to blame Jim for the losses, but not give him credit for the wins.
    Yes....

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Its only 13 games in but my feelings on Jim haven't changed. We are better this year and its completely different than the past few but we are 7-6 and we still lost 4 of those games that we should have won. We should be 11-2 not 7-6, that's a huge difference. Jim deciding to still stick with Mike at this point is another reason to question him, he is still nothing good as a coach.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    So, your mad we are't 11/2?

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    So, your mad we are't 11/2?
    Yes. Are you happy we are 7-6? Your happy and content watching this team lose games, give games away that we should of won? Damn, that's what I hate more than anything, giving away a win. Your content watching mediocre basketball when you could be watching something great, 11-2 is great for this team but were just ok at 7-6.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    You know the fact we have played so well these past 4 games really does make those early stupid losses much worse. Like someone said in a different thread, there would be A LOT of buzz about this Pacers team if we had won the games we SHOULD HAVE won, along with these other wins.

    I think playing OKC and the Lakers is going to really allow us to see what we have with this team. I am excited, but cautiously so. Part of me thinks we will play a really close game with the Thunder and get blown out in LA. The other part of me wouldn't be surprised at all to see us win both games....time will tell.

    Also, I think Jim O'brien is a good coach when he has his players on board. Like UncleBuck said, what he does in the games is overrated and what goes on behind the scenes is very underrated.
    *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbert View Post
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    Yes. Are you happy we are 7-6? Your happy and content watching this team lose games, give games away that we should of won? Damn, that's what I hate more than anything, giving away a win. Your content watching mediocre basketball when you could be watching something great, 11-2 is great for this team but were just ok at 7-6.
    I am patient and have been seeing a young team grow together and compete every night. Rush has been getting minutes, and the Lineups make sense. Also rush was suspended 5 games. You failed to name anything our coach has done wrong this season. I woul like rush to start but things are trending that direction. There are legitimate reasons for everything our coach has done to this point. Just because games are close does not mean we should have won. Being competItive is not a weakness.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Random thought before I go to bed....Russell Westbrook is going to eat Collison alive, we better hope TJ Ford brings his A game on the defensive end.
    *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Also, Durant will probably make Josh Mcroberts cry at some point...literally.
    *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbert View Post
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    Yes. Are you happy we are 7-6? Your happy and content watching this team lose games, give games away that we should of won? Damn, that's what I hate more than anything, giving away a win. Your content watching mediocre basketball when you could be watching something great, 11-2 is great for this team but were just ok at 7-6.
    The losses that most of you pointing out to be "losses that we should've won" are early season losses. The fact that we have new faces on the team (DC, PG, Posey), as well as new roles and implemented plays (more Hibbert inside the post, PnRs, no more Murphy, McBob starting, etc.) contribute to the early instability of the team to win games. On the first few games we see the team scoring so much and then the next game their shooting has gone sour.

    But looking at the last 4 games, we have seen a more consistent defense that we haven't seen in a long time. Those 4 games we have held the opponents to less than 100 points, and the last 3 wins are in a convincing fashion, leading by more than 10 points on each win.

    7-6 is not that bad given that we have won 3 of the last 4 on a strong note, including the back-to-back blowout games in Miami and at home vs the Caves. Plus, the loss that I believe that we should've won is the Philly game. Houston killed us even if there is no Yao with Miller's 3-pt shooting, which is unexpected IMO and have broken the defense inside. The Bucks are one of the formidable defensive teams even without Bogut so not much surprise there. We could've won over the Magic but their defense are one of the best in the league, so we just can't get far ahead of them during that game even after getting the lead. The other losses are from the current superior teams, Atlanta and San Antonio. So for me, the current 7-6 is not bad considering the teams they have played so far.

    And right now, the current Pacers are still "mediocre" because there are still 69 games to prove that they are "great." Lineup wise, only Granger has become an all-star, DC is still a sophomore that are not yet polished, Roy is still embracing the new role as another go-to-guy inside, Rush is still starting to assert himself on offense, Dun is still streaky after recovery, and our PF spot still needs improvement to compete against the elite PFs from the likes of Celtics and LA. We're showing signs of improvement, so we just have to be patient to wait for this team to become great once again.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    I'm certainly not operating under that general notion.

    To me the Pacers over-performed in every season under O'Brien except in the last one (+ Boston and Philly overperformed in every season with him as coach).
    If O'brien is so good and always overperforming, than why, in 9 seasons of coaching in the NBA does he have a losing record? Why was he fired in Philly for Mo Cheeks? Why was he basically fired in Boston, call it what you want. Him and Ainge never got along and JOB resigned, Ainge probably let him have his pride, halfway through the season? If you say he wasn't fired, than even worse, he quit. Why will he not be coaching again in the NBA ever after this year? Being the son in law of Dr. Jack Ramsey will get you somewhere in life, just ask Jim O'Brien.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbert View Post
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    Yes. Are you happy we are 7-6? Your happy and content watching this team lose games, give games away that we should of won? Damn, that's what I hate more than anything, giving away a win. Your content watching mediocre basketball when you could be watching something great, 11-2 is great for this team but were just ok at 7-6.
    You gotta crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.
    Nobody goes from crappy to great in 1 season.
    This team was bad because the players we had weren't good enough.
    Not because of the coach.
    We've added players and have now reached the point of being competitive from a talent standpoint.
    We STILL have to learn how to win. HOw to close out games. How to put your foot on the throat of a team when you get them down. Etc etc
    You do that with experience that only comes from being there and doing it.

    That doesn't happen overnight.

    You should learn to ENJOY THE RIDE as this team improves.
    Not expect them to win every game.

    This team, this organization is doing it RIGHT!!
    Building from the ground up with draft picks and savvy trades.
    I LOVE what is happening here and I wouldn't trade watching this group of guys develop and grow together for ANYTHING, including being in the finals THIS YEAR.

    It's the JOURNEY, not the destination that matters.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by 15th parallel View Post
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    The losses that most of you pointing out to be "losses that we should've won" are early season losses. The fact that we have new faces on the team (DC, PG, Posey), as well as new roles and implemented plays (more Hibbert inside the post, PnRs, no more Murphy, McBob starting, etc.) contribute to the early instability of the team to win games. On the first few games we see the team scoring so much and then the next game their shooting has gone sour.

    But looking at the last 4 games, we have seen a more consistent defense that we haven't seen in a long time. Those 4 games we have held the opponents to less than 100 points, and the last 3 wins are in a convincing fashion, leading by more than 10 points on each win.

    7-6 is not that bad given that we have won 3 of the last 4 on a strong note, including the back-to-back blowout games in Miami and at home vs the Caves. Plus, the loss that I believe that we should've won is the Philly game. Houston killed us even if there is no Yao with Miller's 3-pt shooting, which is unexpected IMO and have broken the defense inside. The Bucks are one of the formidable defensive teams even without Bogut so not much surprise there. We could've won over the Magic but their defense are one of the best in the league, so we just can't get far ahead of them during that game even after getting the lead. The other losses are from the current superior teams, Atlanta and San Antonio. So for me, the current 7-6 is not bad considering the teams they have played so far.

    And right now, the current Pacers are still "mediocre" because there are still 69 games to prove that they are "great." Lineup wise, only Granger has become an all-star, DC is still a sophomore that are not yet polished, Roy is still embracing the new role as another go-to-guy inside, Rush is still starting to assert himself on offense, Dun is still streaky after recovery, and our PF spot still needs improvement to compete against the elite PFs from the likes of Celtics and LA. We're showing signs of improvement, so we just have to be patient to wait for this team to become great once again.
    If you watched every game this year you would agree in some way that we very well could be 11-2. That has nothing to do with a new group of players. When you stick with the same underperforming group half way through the third all the way til midway through the 4th, bench players, for 3 straight games and get the same results, that is bad coaching. JOB should of known in the Orlando game that after half they were going to adjust to Roy after he'd been killing them and would of had a plan to counter that. He didn't, they forced Roy out of the game and onto the bench and we lost.

    If you have noticed we were down 65-66 at halftime to the Spurs, lost. Up 60-52 at half against the Bucks, lost. Up 50-48 against the Rockets at halftime, lost. Down 49-50 at half against the Hawks, lost. And finally, up 52-50 at half vs. the Magic, lost that one too. All but one loss(Philly) this year we were either leading at half or down by 1 point and either couldnt take control of the game or gave the game away, that to me falls on the head coach.

    Good coaches find a way to win especially in close games like these. I have not agreed with his decision to keep starting Mike over Rush, I thought once those 5 games were up Rush would go straight to starting. This decision alone proves that O'Brien is full of it and always SAYS the right things, but never DOES the right things. Remember when he talked about the importance of a high level defense? He contradicted himself with his recent decision to keep Mike starting over Rush and not a single person on here noticed the hypocrite JOB is for doing so. What he says sounds good but 9 times out 10 its pure bs.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    Nobody goes from crappy to great in 1 season.

    You should learn to ENJOY THE RIDE as this team improves.
    Not expect them to win every game.
    The 2006-07 Boston Celtics finished 24-58. The very next year the 2007-08 team finished 66-16 and won the NBA Championship. That's worse than the Pacers were last year to being the best and winning the title. Going from worst to first can happen and has happened very recently. Anything can happen.

    I do expect us to win every game, I always have, call it what you will but I feel that way moreso this year than any since Reggie retired. If JOB could adjust at halftime just like the other teams do and keep Roy down low and keep him in the game, we can win any game this year. Good coached have their teams prepared and ready for anything and everything, they make adjustments and counter what the other team is doing, I haven't seen that from JOB at all in his time here.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    The coach decides who plays and who doesn't, so how can anyone consider what Jim does in the game to be overrated..

    The system, the behind the scenes stuff, the media double talk, all of that has not been as big of an issue as who he plays the majority of the minutes and not seeing the chemistry between certain lineups.

    I'm coming around to Jim, but he has a long way to go. I'm willing to change my mind about him, but it will take a while. There are still a lot of in game decisions that annoy me and that I think are wrong, but I can live with that if we are playing dominant basketball.

    All anyone on Pacer's Digest wants is for us is to win basketball games. And if we are winning then there will be a lot less complaining about Jim... even if we don't agree with what he is doing.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    If all the maladies of this team are due to the coach,
    what say you now?

    The question is now, wtf do you say now after another bs loss like this?

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Not that you asked me, but I would say the team needs to keep moving the ball better on offense when it gets down to crunch time, and I suspect O'Brien (and the team) will say the same.
    Last edited by kester99; 11-26-2010 at 11:57 PM.
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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I think the team overachieved while underachieving all at the same time.
    Sometimes when I really get in a hurry I meet myself going the other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    There was no reason to be in "win now mode" when they clearly didn't have the roster to do anything with the wins, considering they weren't going to win enough to even make the playoffs.
    There was a big reason - Larry Bird saying repeatedly that he expects to make the playoffs every year. I agree. Create a winning culture by doing what you need to do to win. Tanking is a fool's errand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Instead of losing a few more games and letting a player like Josh develop, or even AJ, we are now having to do it this season on the fly. In the long run, it actually hurt the franchise more, than it helped it.
    I'm not convinced. McRoberts is advancing very nicely, thank you very much, and once they make a roster spot for AJ, it'll be hard to keep him off the floor.

    Hurt the franchise?! They've got a whole bunch of very promising young players with outstanding work habits, skills, and athleticism. They are clearly a team on the rise that has an attractive combination of expirings and young talent; this was exactly what the goal was all along.

    A culture of winning is a culture of dedicated work. Why do you think that Bird gives Obie credit for changing the culture? Because they work. Rush and Hibbert transformed their bodies over the summer, and McRoberts is not far behind. If it's okay with you that you don't do your utmost to win, if you tell your young players, "one day some day you'll have to give every ounce of sweat, make me HAVE to put you on the floor, just not now - because I'm giving you minutes you haven't earned" - then you're the Clippers, forever mired in mediocrity, as a parade of top draft picks goes through their revolving door.

    Indianans should be proud of what the Pacers are building - first, building a defensive identity; and second, sharing and moving the ball on offense. In a small market, you need an edge. Team is the edge for your Indiana Pacers. All the more reason to insist on winning and on players winning their court time.


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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
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    Tanking is a fool's errand.
    Well I think pretending you're actually competing when you're not is a fools errand.

    The teams that tank are just making a move to have a better chance to win.

    The problem is a basketball game only involves a few guys. So each guy makes a bigger difference in the game than most other sports. So when these supreme talents come along, landing one of them really bolsters your franchise. Ticket sales go up, money flows, marketability does as well. And the higher the pick, the higher the odds you can find him. You can try and build a team the other way and that's fine. But odds are it's going to be 10 times harder. Throw in the fact you are a small market and have all kinds of other disadvantages and it becomes even tougher, and not likely.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    Well I think pretending you're actually competing when you're not is a fools errand.

    The teams that tank are just making a move to have a better chance to win.

    The problem is a basketball game only involves a few guys. So each guy makes a bigger difference in the game than most other sports. So when these supreme talents come along, landing one of them really bolsters your franchise. Ticket sales go up, money flows, marketability does as well. And the higher the pick, the higher the odds you can find him. You can try and build a team the other way and that's fine. But odds are it's going to be 10 times harder. Throw in the fact you are a small market and have all kinds of other disadvantages and it becomes even tougher, and not likely.
    Well take a look at what Bird has done. I would say we are a better team than the clippers or washington and the bulls lucked out it wasn't really a tank. You have to go back to Durant to find a player with the level of talent needed to change a franchise. The odds are not good that tanking will make you relevant, teams suck and continue to suck for years trying to get lucky. Tankers sacrifice years to become average again. We are now seeing the results of management building a team instead of just hoping for luck.

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