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Thread: A question for the OB haters

  1. #51

    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    As for the defense, see how great is Cleveland's defense when they have a great defensive coach like Byron Scott - a guy who coached some of the best defensive teams in the last 20 years. It's bad and if they get unlucky with injuries in a couple of players, it'll get even uglier. Does it mean that Scott can't coach defense?

    O'Brien's teams have always overperformed defensively relatively to their talent level.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    But you can't do omelettes without eggs. Hibbert used to struggle to stay on the court for more than half a quarter in his rookie season, with fouls and conditioning issue... how can you build your offense around his low post game, which is still a work in progress?
    And routinely fouled out of games with 4 fouls....... Just like PG, the moment Roy would make any mistake he was looking towards the bench because he knew he was getting subbed out.

    Hard to play with confidence and grow when you're scared ****less of making a mistake.

    But whatever. You've not convinced me in 3years that JOb is a good coach, I doubt you're going to do it now.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And Don Nelson get's you GSW..... Sorry, but if that were the Pacers, you'd think that I was actually a JOb fan.

    Just because there is an alternative, doesn't mean that it's the correct way to do things.
    I don't get what you are arguing here and with who. But anyway, my point was, any system can win you games in certain situations if players buy in and play hard. You can win 50+ games and take down a no.1 team in the playoffs. Or you can be a disaster with the same system when you lose your players.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    I'm saying that if you have 5 wing players like Don Nelson, you get a record like GSW routinely gets. That's not what I want the Pacers to do, and I can assure you I'm not the only one.

    I don't care about the rationalization, or what other coach does what, playing Murphy like he did doesn't, and will never work. Period.

    But we had a coach that played him like he was the of the best players, and one of the most important players on the squad, when in fact he was one of the most detrimental players on the team.

    I don't care if Jim sounds smart when he talks about why he does things. I care about results, and the results plain sucked.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    Like most NBA coaches, O'Brien coaches the players he has on the roster.

    I'm sure he understands the 4 doesn't need to be a "stretch" - he ran with Toine out of Boston, he used Dalembert, Thomas, Webber and Jackson as his bigs in Philly. He used PGs who attacked the lane in the past too. And had teams playing the low post a lot.

    But you can't do omelettes without eggs. Hibbert used to struggle to stay on the court for more than half a quarter in his rookie season, with fouls and conditioning issue... how can you build your offense around his low post game, which is still a work in progress?

    Personally, i feel we are a bit too far into this coaching regime to still be operating with a general notion 'can't blame the coach, the team was bad'. I mean, we have this coach for the 4th year now, and we've followed the roster and its gaps for many years. If we can't discuss coaching quality just because 'talent was bad'... where have we been looking for 4 years. In 4 years, you can see if a coach overperforms or underperforms, or is average - no matter the talent level.

    There have been so many weird decisions and plays, especially late into the game. Probably none of us has as much experience as JOB. But that does not make us blind, the man is no Popovich.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm saying that if you have 5 wing players like Don Nelson, you get a record like GSW routinely gets. That's not what I want the Pacers to do, and I can assure you I'm not the only one.

    I don't care about the rationalization, or what other coach does what, playing Murphy like he did doesn't, and will never work. Period.

    But we had a coach that played him like he was the of the best players, and one of the most important players on the squad, when in fact he was one of the most detrimental players on the team.

    I don't care if Jim sounds smart when he talks about why he does things. I care about results, and the results plain sucked.
    Yea, well i don't disagree with you on any on this. That has little to do with what I was saying. Maybe Im not expressing myself properly. Anyway, it seems pointless to keep discussing, since we are both thinking the same and are only for some reason repeating the same idea

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    i remember a 5 game win streak last year that got everyone excited then reality set in. But what we think is irrellevant. But I am really happy with the players we have this year.

  12. #58

    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Probably none of us has as much experience as JOB. But that does not make us blind, the man is no Popovich.
    Probably? There are few things that can be stated with certainty, but this is definitely one of them.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Personally, i feel we are a bit too far into this coaching regime to still be operating with a general notion 'can't blame the coach, the team was bad'. I mean, we have this coach for the 4th year now, and we've followed the roster and its gaps for many years. If we can't discuss coaching quality just because 'talent was bad'... where have we been looking for 4 years. In 4 years, you can see if a coach overperforms or underperforms, or is average - no matter the talent level.
    I have never made such a claim. In fact I have said for years that the job Jim O'Brien did two seasons ago to get 36 wins out of that team was an excellent job coaching. Even his first season with the JT and JO distractions 36 wins was pretty good. I think in bopth instances, the team over-achieved.

    Last season 32 wins was probably about where the team should be. Maybe a couple of games better maybe, but overall 32 wins wasn't too bad for the lack of talent and lack of players with enough experience to win.

    This year we have Collison, a health Dunleavy, Roy is much better, Rush is much better, Ford is playing better than he has, Granger is playing defense. I expect more than 32 wins this season.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Part Timer View Post
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    Probably? There are few things that can be stated with certainty, but this is definitely one of them.
    Well possibly there are very experienced people posting here / reading this. I don't work in basketball field, but I wouldn't 'state with certainty' that noone is. This board does seem to have quite a number of very knowledgeable people posting, compared to most boards.
    Last edited by ballism; 11-24-2010 at 11:43 AM.

  15. #61

    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Personally, i feel we are a bit too far into this coaching regime to still be operating with a general notion 'can't blame the coach, the team was bad'. I mean, we have this coach for the 4th year now, and we've followed the roster and its gaps for many years. If we can't discuss coaching quality just because 'talent was bad'... where have we been looking for 4 years. In 4 years, you can see if a coach overperforms or underperforms, or is average - no matter the talent level.

    There have been so many weird decisions and plays, especially late into the game. Probably none of us has as much experience as JOB. But that does not make us blind, the man is no Popovich.
    I'm certainly not operating under that general notion.

    To me the Pacers over-performed in every season under O'Brien except in the last one (+ Boston and Philly overperformed in every season with him as coach).

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    I think the team overachieved while underachieving all at the same time.

    There was no reason to be in "win now mode" when they clearly didn't have the roster to do anything with the wins, considering they weren't going to win enough to even make the playoffs. Sure they won a few more games than what the roster should have won. Congrats.

    Instead of losing a few more games and letting a player like Josh develop, or even AJ, we are now having to do it this season on the fly. In the long run, it actually hurt the franchise more, than it helped it.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I have never made such a claim. In fact I have said for years that the job Jim O'Brien did two seasons ago to get 36 wins out of that team was an excellent job coaching. Even his first season with the JT and JO distractions 36 wins was pretty good. I think in bopth instances, the team over-achieved.

    Last season 32 wins was probably about where the team should be. Maybe a couple of games better maybe, but overall 32 wins wasn't too bad for the lack of talent and lack of players with enough experience to win.

    This year we have Collison, a health Dunleavy, Roy is much better, Rush is much better, Ford is playing better than he has, Granger is playing defense. I expect more than 32 wins this season.
    Last year's results were indeed ok considering how the players performed. However, maximizing players' performance is part of the job. And O'Brien did it marvelously for stretches, while at other times the effort looked abysmal. He's doing a great job right now again effort-wise, but why has the effort been so on and off during his tenure?

    I feel like we keep over-blaming the coach during the bad times, and then over-forgive everything during the good times.

    To use Granger's example. I think a coach deserves part of the blame when Granger is not playing defense, or making hustle plays or is breaking the system. While it's in huge part his fault, it is coach's job to make players buy into what he teaches.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    If all the maladies of this team are due to the coach,
    what say you now?

    We're playing significantly better. Too bad "significantly better" translates to .500 ball. As others have pointed out, it's taken Jimmy 3+ years to implement some of the things we've been screaming about for the duration.

    If we can continue to play this well and make the playoffs, great. Doesn't mean I want him back next year.
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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    If we can continue to play this well and make the playoffs, great. Doesn't mean I want him back next year.
    I agree because I think everyone buying into the current system is the ceiling for JOB. To go to the next level I think we will need a different coach.
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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    I'm certainly not operating under that general notion.

    To me the Pacers over-performed in every season under O'Brien except in the last one (+ Boston and Philly overperformed in every season with him as coach).
    I see, in that case I missunderstood your point.
    I pretty much agree with what you say now. Personally, I can't say I was ever extremely dissappointed or surprised with season results, - only with the highs and lows of several few-month stretches.

    That said, I often didn't like in-game decisions he made or rotations he used, or the effort he pushed out of players.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Cordobes:
    Like most NBA coaches, O'Brien coaches the players he has on the roster...

    ...But you can't do omelettes without eggs. Hibbert used to struggle to stay on the court for more than half a quarter in his rookie season, with fouls and conditioning issue... how can you build your offense around his low post game, which is still a work in progress?
    There are so many things going on in the post for our team. The presence of Hansbrough and McRoberts to help out much better on defense has probably helped minimize the number of fouls on Hibbert, as has better perimeter defense, team defense and Hibbert's conditioning itself.

    Unclebuck:
    they didn't play like this last year

    there is a lot more going on with this team besides just not having Murphy
    I totally agree that we are playing much better than last season, and that there is much more going on besides Murphy's absence. But rather than calling it "Murphy's absence", I do think that good things are happening due to other players' presence (Collison, Posey) and the fact that other players who have taken Murphy's place on the court (McRoberts, Hansbough) work much better in combination with Hibbert to provide interior defense.

    Peck:
    Indeed, however I do believe that it is the single biggest thing going on with this team this season.

    I can take you back to the Utah game at the end of last year and tell you that we saw what we could be. Give Roy & Danny an athletic player at the four who will defend and rebound and score when he can and you will see two different players & that is what is going on right now.
    Your post, along with Bball's is what really caused me to delve deeper into Unclebuck's post regarding Murphy.

    I think I've come to believe that our better defensive improvement has come about for several reasons.

    Certainly McRoberts and Hansbrough being used more has helped our interior defense over what Murphy provided and have also taken a load off of Hibbert. They are both just scrappy buggers. Hansbrough just always seems to be around the ball when it is in the paint, and McRoberts, well I suppose he would go through a brick wall in trying to get to the ball.

    Making the US team was quite an accomplishment for Danny, but it was tempered by his disappointment of not getting any minutes due to his lesser defensive abilities. Introspection is difficult for most people, but to his credit Danny has come out the other side of that process with a totally renewed interest in being "the complete player". It always helps when your on court leader buys into both ends of the court. And, I think it helps a coach sell his defensive philosopy to all other players as well.

    Collison and TJ push the pace on both ends of the floor has a bearing on the success of our defense as well. We have always wanted our defense to be initiated at the point and for the most part, it now is.

    Bball:
    You know... I was going to 'thank' you for this post and then I thought about it...

    Being that basketball is a team game I wonder how many things that are happening right now ARE because Murphy is gone? Obviously, DC at the point has a direct connection to Murphy being gone. How much is Hibbert helped by having McRoberts playing alongside him instead of Murphy? How much has our offense changed not having Murphy taking large slices of time as a 'stretch 4'?

    How much of Danny's renewed interest in defense is contagious and doesn't have cold water thrown on it by Murphy's poor defense?...
    As stated above, I have come to believe that the single most important factor for improved defense is that Murphy is no longer with the team. It has forced the use of other players at the 4 without missing Murphy's long range shooting due to the better health/"rebirth" of Dunleavy, the presence of Posey, the emergence of Rush and timely contributions from Collison/Ford.

    Granger's re-focus on defense would be minimized without a "system" in which it can be deployed. I suppose we have to accept that that system has been provided by the coaches. With better defense a the point and on the wings, along with a more athletic Hibbert being helped by McRoberts and Hansbrough, there is no doubt that our defense is significantly improved. If nothing else, I feel compelled to give JOB credit for his utilizaiton of his players within his system to accomplish the improvement.

    I have not been a fan of JOB's.... at all. Earlier I said that I would continue to give JOB a reprieve for 20 games or so. But despite my criticism of him his first three seasons here, I also have to state that he has his team is moving the ball to get excellent quality shots better than they ever have on offense and is getting more out of this team defensively than I would have expected, especially for so early in the season.

    With continued success through consistently playing the systems defined by the coach, it will difficult for TPTB to go away from JOB at season's end.
    Last edited by beast23; 11-24-2010 at 12:40 PM.

  24. #68

    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    Well possibly there are very experienced people posting here / reading this. I don't work in basketball field, but I wouldn't 'state with certainty' that noone is. This board does seem to have quite a number of very knowledgeable people posting, compared to most boards.
    I don't wish to diminish the quality of this board because comparatively it is a knowlegeable group. However, NBA coaches get jobs for a reason and it's not because of how much time they spend on a message board.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    Don't think there's much doubt they would be playing better.
    Added Darren (big)
    TJ is playing well (big)
    Danny is playing D and sharing the ball (HUGE)
    Roy is vastly improved.
    Brandon is looking scary good at times.
    I agree, of course, but you left out the huge breakthrough of Josh McRoberts, and the health and significant contributions of Tyler Hansbrough and James Posey. Paul George has big big upside, but right now he's where he needs to be - mostly watching and learning.

    As a team, they're challenging more shots; but the big breakthrough on defense is their defensive rebounding. Roy and Josh both remade themselves as defensive rebounding machines over the summer. Now that they're getting better ball pressure at the point in the last couple of games, it looks like the sky is the limit for Indiana as a defensive squad.


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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by Part Timer View Post
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    I don't wish to diminish the quality of this board because comparatively it is a knowlegeable group. However, NBA coaches get jobs for a reason and it's not because of how much time they spend on a message board.
    Allright. I don't see this going anywhere of value. I don't really want to spend so much time discussing difference between 'probably' and 'certainly' in a sentence of little importance to the thread.

    English is not my first languague, not even second, so sometimes I use a word that isn't necessary to make my point. As long as people understand my main point, I'm cool. And in that case the post wasn't about what forums NBA coaches read. Lets just leave it at that.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    If all the maladies of this team are due to the coach,
    what say you now?

    No one ever said we were world champions if only we had a different coach. This team has had many areas in need of improvement, one of which is Jim O'Brien.

    Going 7-6 into Thanksgiving this year doesn't cause me to forget the horrible years he's coached the team. The team is starting to move in the right direction. One of the next big steps facing our ownership is getting the right coach for our team.

    I am a man of science, and if I am presented with sufficient evidence to the contrary, my view on JOB will change. I haven't seen it, and it will take far more than a 2 game win streak to convince me.

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by maragin View Post
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    No one ever said we were world champions if only we had a different coach. This team has had many areas in need of improvement, one of which is Jim O'Brien.

    Going 7-6 into Thanksgiving this year doesn't cause me to forget the horrible years he's coached the team. The team is starting to move in the right direction. One of the next big steps facing our ownership is getting the right coach for our team.

    I am a man of science, and if I am presented with sufficient evidence to the contrary, my view on JOB will change. I haven't seen it, and it will take far more than a 2 game win streak to convince me.

    The team has played well in all but one game this year. A man of science would't discount that. A man who cherry picks aurguments to suit there needs is not thinking scientifically. A man of science considers every possible variable. If you honestly think optimism is only due to 2 games you need to open your eyes a bit more.
    Last edited by spazzxb; 11-24-2010 at 03:39 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    The team has played well in all but one game this year. A man of science would't discount that. A man who cherry picks aurguments to suit there needs is not thinking scientifically. A man of science considers every possible variable. If you honestly thing optimism is only due to 2 games you need to open your eyes a bit more.
    The "open your eyes" comment is unnecessary.

    I'm not cherry picking arguments. Quite the opposite. I'm looking at Jim's entire body of work. The team has played reasonably well through 13 games. The team has not been good enough in the previous 246 games. To say that is due to Jim O'Brien alone would be incorrect. To completely discount his role would also be foolish.

    There's not enough evidence, for me, to overturn the years of data we have. This season will be a fine test of what he can accomplish.

    To another point, I'm not knocking Pacers optimism. I think we as fans have a lot to be excited about, though some of us are a bit more cautious with said optimism. Personally, I take inventory of the team at the 20 game mark, and then at the All-Star break.

    Now if we win against the Lakers Sunday...

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by maragin View Post
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    Now if we win against the Lakers Sunday...
    As long as NOT winning against the Lakers isn't taken as a sign that JOB still sucks. That'd be a lot to ask of almost any coach in this league.
    BillS

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    Default Re: A question for the OB haters

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    As long as NOT winning against the Lakers isn't taken as a sign that JOB still sucks. That'd be a lot to ask of almost any coach in this league.
    Pat Riley would win it!

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