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Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

    Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds
    Written by Peck

    Link


    If I went to you before the game tonight and told you that Danny Granger would outplay Joe Johnson significantly and Roy Hibbert would render Al Horford essentially irrelevant you would probably think that Pacers had a better chance than not of winning the game.

    Sadly, as most expected, that was not the result of the game.

    I would love to use the excuse that Darren Collison & Tyler Hansbrough being out of our lineup caused us to not be able to compete and win but then I have to remind myself that the Pacers have recently lost to a couple of teams missing key players and took everything in their power to beat the Cavaliers who were also missing key players.

    This is the NBA and injuries are just part of it, you do what you can to compensate and then you move on.

    Which, in all honesty, the Pacers did as well as they could tonight.* Both T.J. & James Posey provided adequate relief and while I am certain that we might have played better in spots with the missing players, at the end of the day I am not certain the end result would have been any different.

    I’m a little short on time tonight so I’m just going back to the old standard of the good, the bad & the ugly to review the game.

    The Good:

    Danny Granger was just outstanding tonight.* He played hard on both sides of the floor and the fact that he played hard defense and did not foul one time is absolutely amazing.* If he had any faults at all tonight it might be in the fact that he didn’t shoot enough.* He was 50% from the field and really he would have been above that if not for desperation three’s that we were trying to get up at the end of the game.* He defended and in my opinion locked down Joe Johnson for most of the night.* He might have been a little more active on the glass but 6 rebounds are respectable.* So while he didn’t get a lot of help tonight he certainly tried his best on both ends of the floor.

    Roy Hibbert outplayed Al Horford.* I actually felt good typing that because I believe that is the first time I have ever been able to say that or for that matter not need a stress debriefing after watching Al abuse Roy in the post.* But for tonight Roy more than held his own and in fact outplayed Al in their one on one matchups.* It’s too bad that the skills that Roy brings to the game are not valued by our coach down towards the end of the game.* For the life of me I will never understand why we take our best rebounder, our only low post defender and our only real low post threat and sit him on the bench at the end of games.* I understand that they may need or want to shoot three point shots (I won’t insert the insanely easy jokes to be made about our offense and three point shots here) down towards the end but you still need someone to rebound the ball and defend the other end.* When he was taken out of the game Roy spent the rest of the night looking dejected and very down, which I know he takes losses very hard and personal but some of this had to be because he wasn’t given a chance to help towards the end.*

    Solomon Jones, yes Solomon Jones.* No you didn’t read that wrong.* Look he is what he is and frankly that often leaves something to be desired but tonight he gave you about everything you could ever expect from him even going so far as to grab 3 rebounds in one game.* I felt like that right there merited an entire post and celebration but then I thought that maybe that was overboard.* He was perfect from the field and even managed to make Horford eat a shot which had to come as a real surprise to him.* While this isn’t the biggest ringing endorsement that you can get I will still just say that he gave you everything he could and that is all you can ever ask of a player.

    The Bad:

    I’m tempted to just right “everybody else” but that is not really fair or accurate as both T.J. Ford & James Posey played to the best of their abilities however neither should be required to give you this many minutes in a game so I think for the most part I am going to give them a pass for the night and even say that they tried.* In fact James played great in the first quarter but soon after that Josh Smith’s athletic ability just overwhelmed him.

    Josh McRoberts is on the verge of taking his starting power forward position and throwing it in the can.* The only thing saving him right now is that Tyler is not really ready to take it at the moment and I think they wanted to wait a few games before they inserted Posey into the slot.* While I want to hate on O’Brien for this, it is hard to argue against it.* While I love Josh and wanted him to start I will not be a hypocrite here and let him get a pass on the very same thing that I used to complain about with Jeff Foster.* Josh has got to get some form of offense.* I don’t care if it’s a fact up jumper, a post up move, a slash to the basket or a hook shot.* He has become a detriment on the offensive end because teams are now not only sagging off of him they are actually leaving him to double the ball and Josh does not make them pay.* I don’t know if he has lost his confidence or what but for God’s sake he only got up 3 shots in 23 minutes of play.* This is not acceptable and will be the reason why I am going to have to suffer watching James Posey play vs. Blake Griffin on Thursday.* His defense was solid and I don’t know if it’s true or not yet but I read where Smith only scored 2 points when Josh was on him.* While that is great if true it still does not excuse his inept offensive production.

    Jim O’Brien didn’t blow the game but he didn’t help either.* For those of you that follow the Pacers Digest main board you know that I am doing my absolute best to not be overly critical of the coaching and am trying to look for positives.* In fact we are in official détente mode; however it is getting harder every game.* Look again nobody has to remind me that he does not have an abundance of talent to work with and yes we all know that his offense is not designed to take quick bad shots or an abundance of three point shots but is actually designed to open up the driving lanes so that our cutters (as if those actually existed) will get to the basket and hopefully to the line.* The problem is though that when this does not work either by the opponent’s adjustments or just simply by the fact that we are not hitting shots our offense comes to a quick and startling halt.* Tonight in the second half that very thing happened.* The Hawks just packed the lane and for some reason we decided that Roy who in the first half was very effective needed to go from the low post to the high post and initiate the offense.* Now seeing as how Roy & Danny were really the only ones scoring I’m not sure who they thought would pick up the slack.* Also for four games now, which by the way we are now 1-3 in, he has decided that Roy Hibbert needs to sit on the bench and his closing unit is Mike Dunleavy, Danny Granger, James Posey, T.J. Ford and usually Josh at center.* Tonight our closing lineup in the last minute consisted of Danny Granger playing center and yes the results were exactly what you thought they might be as the only rebound we secured was off of a Mike Bibby missed free throw.* In other words slowly, some might even add sneakily, Jim O’Brien has started to add his small lineup back into the mix.* Again I will say what I always say there is a time and a place for a small lineup but they need to be faster and more athletic.* Our small lineup is slow and usually not athletic but they usually share one thing in common, they can shoot from distance.* Doesn’t mean they hit but they can shoot.* This all has the horrid ominous ring of past seasons to me.

    Again, I’m not turning.* But now I am adding the word yet to that statement because I am starting to see more and more things sneak onto the floor that just look way to familiar to me.

    The Ugly:

    Zaza Pachulia’s head is just absolutely huge.* I’m talking the leader from the Hulk comic books huge.* His head is bigger than any other two players heads combined bad.*

    Quick Hits Bullet Point Style
    • Ok I think that we should have Paul George’s attention, now next game he needs some time on the floor.
    • I am going to be attending some form of religious service soon because when Brandon Rush shoots 4 free throws in one game I know the apocalypse is coming.
    • Love my boys up in area 55 but you guys might want to not be chanting when they are honoring local heroes.*
    • Half time was a skate team from Kokomo which drew the following tweet from Austin Croshere “Worst half-time show ever!! Lame roller skaters. Wow terrible!!”
    • While I’m certain that Austin will not be on the skaters Christmas list this year I have a feeling this tweet won’t make him popular with O’Brien either.* “Live by the 3, die by the 3! Must find other ways ti score.”
    *beeps*
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

    Ok I had a tweet in there from Mike Wells but I erased it because he erased the tweet.

    He now has the quote in today's article in the star online.

    Needless to say I get very sick of Jim's condescending attitude towards his players at times & unless this is taken out of context I think that this is one of those things that he should have just kept to himself. Who does he think got Horford in foul trouble? Yes, let's denegrate a player for doing his job and actually outplaying the people he is supposed to outplay. I feel confident that this is in response to a quesiton asking why Roy was moved away from the basket and not utilized on the offensive end in the second half.

    God forbid he ever admit that maybe just maybe he didn't do a good enough job in getting Roy some looks.

    I hope you guys on the pro O'Brien side of the fence appreciate the fact that I am not going on a 32 page rant about this because believe me I want to.

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...nta-domination


    Atlanta domination
    Hawks knock off Pacers for 7th consecutive time
    Nov 17, 2010 |

    Written by
    Mike Wells
    There are just some teams that are a nagging thorn in the Indiana Pacers' side. The kind that no matter how hard or well they play they can't do enough to beat them.

    The Atlanta Hawks are the team that continues to poke the Pacers harder and harder each time they play them.

    The Hawks toyed with the Pacers for the first 24 minutes before locking in during the second half to extend their winning streak in the series to seven games.

    A bad third quarter did in the Pacers during their 102-92 loss to the Hawks on Tuesday night at Conseco Fieldhouse.

    "We came out with no energy and just didn't seem to be able to get in the groove," Pacers forward Mike Dunleavy said. "They're a tough team for us to match up with and they really played us tough from start to finish."

    The Hawks' athleticism presents challenges across the board for the Pacers.

    Contain one player -- Joe Johnson -- and another player -- Josh Smith -- steps up.

    Danny Granger held Johnson, an All-Star, to 11 points on 4-of-12 shooting, but Smith picked up the slack.

    Smith used his height to take advantage of James Posey and Josh McRoberts in the post for easy baskets.

    Smith abused the Pacers power forwards to get 25 points, eight rebounds and seven blocks.

    "It seemed like Josh Smith couldn't miss throughout the game," Granger said.

    Smith did most of his damage in the third quarter, when the Hawks broke open a close game.

    He had nine of his team's 11 points during one stretch to help Atlanta take a 12-point lead into the final quarter.

    All five Hawks starters scored in double figures and they shot 50 percent from the field, including 53 percent on 3-pointers.

    "We lost to a very good basketball team," Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said. "They have a lot of weapons. They played together and they're well-coached. Josh Smith was terrific."

    The Pacers had their own offensive weapon going in the first half.

    Center Roy Hibbert, who has had problems against center Al Horford in the past, came out determined to give the Pacers a presence in the post.

    The third-year center had 14 points, eight rebounds and two assists in 17 minutes in the first half.

    The second half, well, was a totally different game for Hibbert.

    He went from getting the ball in the post to having to play out around the foul line where he wasn't as effective.

    Hibbert scored only four points and attempted six shots in the final 24 minutes of the game.

    He was limited to one shot attempt in the third quarter when the Hawks got their double-digit lead.

    Hibbert finished with 18 points and 15 rebounds. Granger led the Pacers with 22 points.

    "I think they got under him (Hibbert) pretty effectively," O'Brien said. "We tried to get the ball to him on pick-and-roll plays. They do a very good job of guarding the pick-and-roll.

    ". . . He certainly went off in the first half, but it was against their second-string centers. Horford was in foul trouble."
    Etc.
    The Pacers were without starting PG Darren Collison and backup PF Tyler Hansbrough, who were out with ankle injuries. O'Brien said he is not sure how long either player could be out.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

      My detente is officially over. I want someone with a straight face to actually tell me they believe that JOB doesn't actually value the 2 threes that Posey made more than he values the 16 rebounds Roy had.

      You can't do it! If you can, then you must live with the fact that you know that deep down somewhere in your soul you are a liar.

      House Name: Pacers

      House Sigil:


      House Words: "We Kneel To No King"

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

        The day Jimmy is fired is the day i order tickets to come over again.
        So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

        If you've done 6 impossible things today?
        Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

          I think O'brien benched Roy for a defensive mistake. Right before he got benched, he left Horford wiiiiide open.
          Not that i agree with it, but I do think there's a reason for his strange substitutions. I believe it's mostly just punishment for mistakes.

          I refuse to believe that anybody thinks S.Jones gives you a better chance to win than Roy Hibbert. So, I hope I'am right.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

            JOB is a mini despot, and we are under his tyranny until someone delivers us.
            "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

              Oh, so I guess this is a rip JOB thread. OK

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

                Originally posted by able View Post
                The day Jimmy is fired is the day i order tickets to come over again.
                I'm looking forward to seeing you very, very soon. And yes, I will drive up from Alabama to pick you up from the airport

                I would rather be the hammer than the nail

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

                  Originally posted by Peck View Post

                  He went from getting the ball in the post to having to play out around the foul line where he wasn't as effective.
                  What needs to be carefully analyzed is what caused Roy to "have to play around the foul line" Was it the Hawks defense, Pacers running different plays, Pacers not executing, Roy not working for low post position. That is what we need to know and without re-watching the second half, I just don't know

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

                    Roy was good last night, but come on he shot 6/16 from the field. That's terrible for a big man, and his shooting percentage this season is JO-esque.

                    I'm surprised you're not all over that Peck considering you and many other rode JO out on a rail over his shooting %'s as a big man.

                    That being said JOB's quote is ridiculous, but Roy MUST fix his shooting %'s. He needs to be much closer to 50% and right now he's trending toward 40%.


                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

                      Oh, also, Roy has apparently decided he'd like to give Jeff Foster a run for his money for the title of Pacers big man who misses the most layups. I mean good Lord, I think Roy is shooting a higher % on his hook shot than he is on wide open layups for the season.

                      DUNK THE FRIGGIN' BALL FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY.


                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

                        I will preface this by saying that I did not watch last night's game, but I have read the majority of the post game thread plus Peck's synopsis in this thread.

                        I assume that McRoberts was not in the paint much offensively for last night's game, as he has not been much this season due to his new function as an offensive facilitator from the high post. He only took 3 shots according to the box score, so I assume his touches in any kind of scoring position were almost non-existent for whatever reason, or that he was more focused on getting the ball to Roy who missed shots. Again, I am just guessing, primarily about Josh getting the ball to Roy when Roy was missing shots.

                        Again, McRoberts is being played at a position on the floor that limits his overall effectiveness. Yes, he can pass, and he is working on being better at setting screens. Those are the positives of his playing there. Josh's ability to dash to the rim from the high post is pretty much limited to non-existent as soon as the opposition decides to pack the paint to stop our penetration and dare Roy to beat them from the perimeter because the Pacers will not go to him in traffic due to his inability to get quality shots off consistently when teams have players put a body on him to keep him off balance due to his lack of good footwork.

                        So now, as a result of Josh adapting his game to suit O'Brien's plan, what we have in Josh is a one dimensional offensive player, and a large part of that is the fact that he is not a jump shooter. He is now just a passer, and primarily to Roy or other cutters, and as soon as the opposition packs the paint, Josh is no longer effective because he cannot hit shots from 15 feet and out. He still plays good defense, and he is rebounding effectively, and I suspect he is assuming some of the blocking out responsibility that is allowing Roy and others to get the former rebounds of Murphy.

                        Last year, Josh was a more effective player because he was a threat to use his energy to be explosive because his role was less defined due to O'Brien not actually planning to use him at any time, which forced other teams to have to look out for him because they never could be sure where he was going to come from, and he was always a mismatch in the Pacers favor as a result.

                        So, Josh should take Paul George's advice and say "eff it" and unleash the game he has bottled up inside him. That is a shot in the arm that the Pacers really need at this point. I realize that saying "eff it" is likely what has George glued to the bench, but at this point Josh is about to head there anyway because Posey can hit jumpers on occasion despite the shortfalls throughout the remainder of his game on both ends of the floor.

                        As I have also posted elsewhere previously, I suspect that the PnR game will die a slow death, and that Roy will become marginalized due to his inability to play a power game in the low post, and that teams will increasingly dare him to score from the perimeter unless the Pacers actually install a passing and player movement oriented offense in the half court that is designed to draw defenders away from the paint because so many players will be free in scoring positions in the midrange that the defenders won't be able to pack the paint. It will take a radical change in O'Brien's philosophy of basketball for that to happen, and I don't look for that to occur.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

                          Originally posted by RoboHicks View Post
                          Josh McRoberts is on the verge of taking his starting power forward position and throwing it in the can.* The only thing saving him right now is that Tyler is not really ready to take it at the moment and I think they wanted to wait a few games before they inserted Posey into the slot.* While I want to hate on O’Brien for this, it is hard to argue against it.* While I love Josh and wanted him to start I will not be a hypocrite here and let him get a pass on the very same thing that I used to complain about with Jeff Foster.* Josh has got to get some form of offense.* I don’t care if it’s a fact up jumper, a post up move, a slash to the basket or a hook shot.* He has become a detriment on the offensive end because teams are now not only sagging off of him they are actually leaving him to double the ball and Josh does not make them pay.* I don’t know if he has lost his confidence or what but for God’s sake he only got up 3 shots in 23 minutes of play.* This is not acceptable and will be the reason why I am going to have to suffer watching James Posey play vs. Blake Griffin on Thursday.* His defense was solid and I don’t know if it’s true or not yet but I read where Smith only scored 2 points when Josh was on him.* While that is great if true it still does not excuse his inept offensive production.
                          Sounds like somebody misses Troy Murphy......
                          PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

                            Originally posted by Brad8888 View Post
                            So now, as a result of Josh adapting his game to suit O'Brien's plan, what we have in Josh is a one dimensional offensive player, and a large part of that is the fact that he is not a jump shooter. He is now just a passer, and primarily to Roy or other cutters, and as soon as the opposition packs the paint, Josh is no longer effective because he cannot hit shots from 15 feet and out. He still plays good defense, and he is rebounding effectively, and I suspect he is assuming some of the blocking out responsibility that is allowing Roy and others to get the former rebounds of Murphy.
                            Asking a NBA player to hit a 15 foot jump shot shouldn't be that big of a deal IMO. I really don't blame josh for yesterdays failures but if he wants to start he has to offer more than just than just 5 points and 6.6 rebounds a game. Defensively he's pretty good but I really have a hard time believing that what he is being asked to do is just totally hindering him as player. Out of the starting five he is the last guy I care about offensively because he has shown the least ability to doing anything with the ball outiside of dunks and put backs.

                            I think Tyler will be starting here soon.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Beware Predatory Birds [The Front Page]

                              Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                              Oh, so I guess this is a rip JOB thread. OK
                              Jim O'Brien isn't the only thing wrong with the Pacers but he's certainly one of them. And high on the list as well....
                              Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                              ------

                              "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                              -John Wooden

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