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Thread: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    When I first met Crean I thought 'now this is a guy who can turn this around quick'. This was not long after his hiring and before he'd ever coached a game at IU.

    He sold me... But now I'm still waiting to see some substance.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Virtually no improvement from two years ago.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    When I first met Crean I thought 'now this is a guy who can turn this around quick'. This was not long after his hiring and before he'd ever coached a game at IU.

    He sold me... But now I'm still waiting to see some substance.
    See, that's what he does so well--he sells the program. He talks a good game, and he has certainly come on strong with recruiting after a (understandably) slow start. I was on him at the end of last year, and then during the offseason with all the recruiting success and momentum the program had, I started to forget just how agonizing his teams are to watch.

    I can't see this team winning more than 3 games the rest of the season. I'm not even sure they get 3 more, but if they do, that's 12 wins. I don't expect miracles, I expect improvement. 12 wins with that creampuff non-conference schedule is not an improvement. 3 wins in conference play would actually be a step back. There's no reason for it either. Like I said, I don't expect to see the guy fired, but I want people to realize that this is not progress. This is a holding pattern.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    I'm just not sure who Coach Crean thinks he is fooling. Surely he must be aware that the fanbase of Indiana Basketball is easily one of the most knowledgeable in the country. I just cant get a grasp of what his offensive gameplan is. Found it funny in the Star today there was a reporter that asked Crean if he had any thoughts of running a different offense. Crean responded by saying "... you draw something up and get it over to me and I'll take a look." Thing is, the guy could probably do that and it would look better than the offense Coach Crean has IU running currently.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    I've never understood why many IU fans insist upon discussing Final Fours or championships right now. Can Tom Crean coach us to the Final Four? Sure he can, he did at Marquette so it's within the realm of possibility. Mike Davis even made a championship game so sure Crean could get IU to the Final Four. But talking about that is a lot like a theatre major saying "What if I can only win an Independent Spirit Award but never an Oscar?" before he or she scores a paid acting gig.

    It's a holding pattern right now, sure, but not by design. Maurice Creek certainly isn't close to the player pre-injury yet so that's a major setback and the NCAA ruling against Guy-Marc Michel made IU's rebounding and defensive issues even easier to exploit. When Crean was hired and the program post-Sampson was gutted, I assumed nothing would really matter until after the fourth year. Right now we're halfway through his third. He has done a fantastic job recruiting - much earlier than I would have anticipated (I thought he'd have to start being competitive in the Big Ten first before top talent really considered IU an option). So I think things are looking up. Complain about his Xs and Os all you want, I'm not even going to bother judging that until years five and six.

    Will Crean be the guy that pushes IU back to the Final Four? Maybe not, but it's not like anyone was consistently coaching Indiana beyond the first weekend of March Madness since the dude in cdash's avatar was drafted by the Bullets. Is Crean worse than Mike Davis? Would you rather have Crean or Sampson? A number of people wanted Mike Montgomery before Crean became IU's coach; how would IU feel about his phone plan? Many hoped Tony Bennett would be the next guy to lead the program but Bennett wasn't interested (probably because a daunting rebuilding project that likely wouldn't yield results for at least five years isn't very attractive to a coach at the infancy of his career).

    Before IU could worry about Final Fours or Big Ten championships, the program had to be gutted and rebuilt. The best way to do that is with a person that excels at recruiting. It would seem at the moment Crean is doing everything that could be hoped for to create the foundation that will make IU a basketball destination school again. Once we get into years five and six, then we can talk about whether Crean's Xs and Os will get in the way of Final Fours and championships (Big Ten or otherwise) and maybe the same problems will still exist. But short of some oil-slicked Callipari magic or a mega coach like the Zen Master deciding challenge himself by heading to Bloomington, I'm not sure anyone could have made more progress during this time.
    Last edited by avoidingtheclowns; 01-10-2011 at 04:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    By atc's logic, we shouldn't judge Jim O'Brien's Xs and Os until the fifth year either. He entered a daunting rebuilding task with the Pacers. A job that was also turned down by our top targets. The team was horrible, the talent is still subpar. Yet we are allowed to critique his Xs and Os, baffling rotations, questionable decisions, but not Crean's? The guy has been a head coach for 13 years. He's in his third year at Indiana. The guys he is playing (and losing) with are his players. Obviously, I'm not expecting to win anything or even make the postseason this year, but I think a record hovering around .500 was very, very attainable with our laugher of a non-conference schedule.

    Your last sentence is beyond baffling to me. You aren't sure anyone could have made more progress during this time? What progress has there been? He's cleaned up the program, sure, but players haven't developed under him. The mistakes are the same year in and year out with these teams. This was a year I expected to start seeing results. The heralded recruiting class that are currently sophomores (Hulls, Creek, Watford, Elston) were all expected to make a big leap from year one to year two. Hulls certainly looks a lot better. Watford's numbers are better, but his defense is awful and he goes for his stats to the detriment of the team quite often. Creek has regressed in an amazing way, but I'll issue a pass there due to his injury. Elston is who he was last year. More important, the results are the same. As a team, I have seen absolutely zero progress from last year to this year. That is alarming.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I can't see this team winning more than 3 games the rest of the season. I'm not even sure they get 3 more, but if they do, that's 12 wins. I don't expect miracles, I expect improvement. 12 wins with that creampuff non-conference schedule is not an improvement. 3 wins in conference play would actually be a step back. There's no reason for it either. Like I said, I don't expect to see the guy fired, but I want people to realize that this is not progress. This is a holding pattern.
    Strangely familiar to how the IU football program tries to manufacture bowl eligibility. We know what that means.
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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Agree that there's little to no observable player development. The offense is hideous to watch...not that unlike the Pacers actually.

    There's also no real development from a team standpoint. I mean...these guys are in year two or three of his system. Shouldn't they at least show some sort of purpose or organization out there. All I see is a bunch of guys overdribbling around the perimeter.

    Personally, I'm not even demanding B10 wins at this point. You can lose and still show signs of improvement/development individually and as a team.

    Finally, Crean, please sit Watford's sad *** on the bench until he commits to working on the defensive end of the floor (including rebounding)! He's playing like a 6-9 wimp.
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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    I think the team looked better at the end of the season in Crean's first year than they have since that time. Obviously, there's more talent now but I thought by the end of that season he had them playing about as well as could be expected and they looked to be playing with a sense of purpose and discipline.

    I've been surprised they didn't build on that as the talent and experience both increased.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    I think a lot of you are jumping the gun. The team was G-U-T-T-E-D. Then most of the freshman that came in Crean's first year left. Effectively this is year 1 of the rebuild. Last year was year 0. The first year was just...well it was unprecedented.

    What the hell are we doing to say we expected better right now? This is a team full of sophomore without one upper classmen worth a damn or any sort of front court talent at all.

    This is not a very good basketball team yet. That is the long and the short of it, but the foundation is there. You have to let it build though.

    Let's not turn into Michigan football.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mb221 View Post
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    I'm just not sure who Coach Crean thinks he is fooling. Surely he must be aware that the fanbase of Indiana Basketball is easily one of the most knowledgeable in the country. .
    As well as the most pretentious apparently.

    Everyone thinks they're the most knowledgeable fan base.

    You want to ruin this program fast? You fire Crean now. Let him get that 2012 class in here and if he bombs then you go big game hunting for a big time coach with all that talent. Just like UNC did when they bagged Roy Williams.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 01-12-2011 at 12:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I think the team looked better at the end of the season in Crean's first year than they have since that time. Obviously, there's more talent now but I thought by the end of that season he had them playing about as well as could be expected and they looked to be playing with a sense of purpose and discipline.

    I've been surprised they didn't build on that as the talent and experience both increased.
    You mean his very first year?

    Everyone freakin' left except for Pritchard and Jones when he brought in the Watford, Creek, Elston class.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    By atc's logic, we shouldn't judge Jim O'Brien's Xs and Os until the fifth year either. He entered a daunting rebuilding task with the Pacers. A job that was also turned down by our top targets. The team was horrible, the talent is still subpar. Yet we are allowed to critique his Xs and Os, baffling rotations, questionable decisions, but not Crean's? The guy has been a head coach for 13 years. He's in his third year at Indiana. The guys he is playing (and losing) with are his players. Obviously, I'm not expecting to win anything or even make the postseason this year, but I think a record hovering around .500 was very, very attainable with our laugher of a non-conference schedule.
    Comparing IU's situation to anything we've ever seen before in college basketball is a complete and total stretch. To compare it to an NBA team who can't have a roster gutted like that does not even make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash
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    Your last sentence is beyond baffling to me. You aren't sure anyone could have made more progress during this time? What progress has there been? He's cleaned up the program, sure, but players haven't developed under him. The mistakes are the same year in and year out with these teams. This was a year I expected to start seeing results. The heralded recruiting class that are currently sophomores (Hulls, Creek, Watford, Elston) were all expected to make a big leap from year one to year two. Hulls certainly looks a lot better. Watford's numbers are better, but his defense is awful and he goes for his stats to the detriment of the team quite often. Creek has regressed in an amazing way, but I'll issue a pass there due to his injury. Elston is who he was last year. More important, the results are the same. As a team, I have seen absolutely zero progress from last year to this year. That is alarming.
    I think we've seen decided improvement in Hulls.

    Elston as well is making much quicker decisions than he did last year and is playing with more aggression.

    Watford has improved and regressed at the same time. His offense is superior particularly in the post, his defensive failures are largely due in part to the lack of a true big body next to him IMO.

    Creek will never be the same player again after his injury or at least he won't be this year, I have accepted that.

    We just need a bit more patience, we're not even three full years through this process.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread


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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I think a lot of you are jumping the gun. The team was G-U-T-T-E-D. Then most of the freshman that came in Crean's first year left. Effectively this is year 1 of the rebuild. Last year was year 0. The first year was just...well it was unprecedented.

    What the hell are we doing to say we expected better right now? This is a team full of sophomore without one upper classmen worth a damn or any sort of front court talent at all.

    This is not a very good basketball team yet. That is the long and the short of it, but the foundation is there. You have to let it build though.

    Let's not turn into Michigan football.
    All the apologists say the same thing about the team being gutted. Trust me, I'm well aware of the situation he walked into. Tabor and Finkelmeier were the only returning players, and neither of them was worth their weight in salt. I get that, I really do. I don't buy that "this is really year 1" crap. Year 1 was year 1. His situation sucked, but he is playing with his own players. He recruited all these guys in one form or another. The fact that they don't fit his system is odd, because he knew his system and he knew the players when he recruited them.

    You are right: it isn't a very good basketball team. We all realize there are serious holes in our virtually non-existent frontcourt and we don't have a point guard who has the ability to create for himself, which is a huge problem in the dribble drive offense.

    I want to know, what is the foundation? These guys who you yourself said aren't very good? Is Crean himself the foundation? The recruiting classes coming in?

    Obviously, when I said fire Crean above, I didn't mean now, today. It was a post I made when I was pissed off during the game, when we all know hyperbole rules. I posted in another thread that I think it would be incredibly short sighted and it would do the program no favors if it fired him now, and I fully anticipate on seeing him make it to Year 5 regardless of the outcome of this year and next.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    You want to ruin this program fast? You fire Crean now. Let him get that 2012 class in here and if he bombs then you go big game hunting for a big time coach with all that talent. Just like UNC did when they bagged Roy Williams.
    Which is exactly how I expect this to play out.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Which is exactly how I expect this to play out.
    So then what are you so depressed about? We have to ride this out til at least 2012 and get Parea, Yogi and hopefully Gary Harris in here.

    THAT'S when you decide if Crean's your guy and if you not go out to try and bring someone in who is big time somewhere else and wants to coach IU with all that talent.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Comparing IU's situation to anything we've ever seen before in college basketball is a complete and total stretch. To compare it to an NBA team who can't have a roster gutted like that does not even make sense.



    I think we've seen decided improvement in Hulls.

    Elston as well is making much quicker decisions than he did last year and is playing with more aggression.

    Watford has improved and regressed at the same time. His offense is superior particularly in the post, his defensive failures are largely due in part to the lack of a true big body next to him IMO.

    Creek will never be the same player again after his injury or at least he won't be this year, I have accepted that.

    We just need a bit more patience, we're not even three full years through this process.
    It was a general comparison. I didn't get that deep into the situations. I just think it's incredibly idiotic that we supposedly can't judge Crean's coaching, you know, since he hasn't been a head coach for 13 years with "meh" results, even when his rosters weren't gutted.

    I understand patience, I really do. I also want to be rewarded for my patience by seeing growth and progress. While I agree mainly with what you were saying about the individual improvements (however incremental they may be), the results are the same. We will end up with barely more wins than we did last year, quite possibly with fewer Big Ten wins than we had last year. Everyone and their brother (including you, I suspect) picked the Hoosiers to win somewhere between 14-18 games this season. Why aren't they there? Why are we still seeing the same mistakes that we saw in his first and second seasons? Why are we still routinely getting the crap beaten out of us by opponents with similar talent?

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    All the apologists say the same thing about the team being gutted. Trust me, I'm well aware of the situation he walked into. Tabor and Finkelmeier were the only returning players, and neither of them was worth their weight in salt. I get that, I really do. I don't buy that "this is really year 1" crap. Year 1 was year 1. His situation sucked, but he is playing with his own players. He recruited all these guys in one form or another. The fact that they don't fit his system is odd, because he knew his system and he knew the players when he recruited them.

    You are right: it isn't a very good basketball team. We all realize there are serious holes in our virtually non-existent frontcourt and we don't have a point guard who has the ability to create for himself, which is a huge problem in the dribble drive offense.

    I want to know, what is the foundation? These guys who you yourself said aren't very good? Is Crean himself the foundation? The recruiting classes coming in?

    Obviously, when I said fire Crean above, I didn't mean now, today. It was a post I made when I was pissed off during the game, when we all know hyperbole rules. I posted in another thread that I think it would be incredibly short sighted and it would do the program no favors if it fired him now, and I fully anticipate on seeing him make it to Year 5 regardless of the outcome of this year and next.
    Hulls can be a solid hold the line PG.

    Watford can be a very good player.

    Elston can be a great dirty work player.

    Creek, if he ever heals, can be a good shooter, but like all major knee injuries it's probably going to take til at least next fall.

    Finally, there is Oladipo and Sheehey, when I see Oladipo, I see a classic Tom Izzo/Mich St. type player and with Sheehey I see a great 4 year swing man.

    I think that's a decent foundation all things considered. Just because they aren't very good right now, doesn't mean they won't get better. JMO tho

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    So then what are you so depressed about? We have to ride this out til at least 2012 and get Parea, Yogi and hopefully Gary Harris in here.

    THAT'S when you decide if Crean's your guy and if you not go out to try and bring someone in who is big time somewhere else and wants to coach IU with all that talent.
    I'm depressed because I thought when those guys got here, and by their second season on campus, that we would be ready to compete for Big Ten titles and make deep tournament runs. In Year 6 of a rebuild, with that kind of talent, I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

    Now? I think that class will get us back to the tournament, and flame out in the second round like most Crean-coached teams. I just don't think he is a very good coach. I see a lot of limitations in him. The offense, regardless of personnel, is horrid. His defense is horrid, and he is slow to make adjustments to his schemes. But lord knows that he will yank around his players with hockey-like substitutions. I don't really blame him for this that much, but he has a different starting lineup every game. Again, I understand the need for that, but he needs to adjust his system to the personnel. They can't run the dribble drive. Verdell is a turnover machine and Hulls simply doesn't have the physical tools to create for himself.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Hulls can be a solid hold the line PG.

    Watford can be a very good player.

    Elston can be a great dirty work player.

    Creek, if he ever heals, can be a good shooter, but like all major knee injuries it's probably going to take til at least next fall.

    Finally, there is Oladipo and Sheehey, when I see Oladipo, I see a classic Tom Izzo/Mich St. type player and with Sheehey I see a great 4 year swing man.

    I think that's a decent foundation all things considered. Just because they aren't very good right now, doesn't mean they won't get better. JMO tho
    I'll exclude Oladipo and Sheehey from this, since they are freshmen.

    In college basketball, aren't you supposed to make your biggest jump between your freshman and sophomore seasons? I thought all these guys would have progressed, and the team would benefit from it. They maybe have in small ways, but the team is certainly no better off. Looking at the micro, you can see improvements in most of those guys. Looking at the macro, the results are the same. Why?

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Maybe, I'm just saying I think we have to wait til the end of next year to really know anything that's 4 years. And if by then it looks like Crean doesn't have it together, then the 2012 class spends one year with him and then we go looking for a guy like Roy Williams when he was at Kansas.

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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Maybe, I'm just saying I think we have to wait til the end of next year to really know anything that's 4 years. And if by then it looks like Crean doesn't have it together, then the 2012 class spends one year with him and then we go looking for a guy like Roy Williams when he was at Kansas.
    I don't think we could get a guy like Roy Williams, but I think that is how it is going to play out. He underwhelms this season and next season, but we give him Year 5 and the 2012 kids and see what he can do. With that mix of talent and veteran leadership, that team should be a top 15 team, assuming we get the guys we are supposed to get and no one defects early from the Hulls/Watford/Creek/Elston quartet.

  27. #99
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    I agree with the assessment of what that team should be.

    I don't know why we couldn't get a guy like Williams. UNC was in a mire just like we were until they got him. What brought him in was the Felton/May/McCants class.

    Why can't 2012 be that sort of class for us if we add Harris? PG/Big man/Wing

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    Whale Shepherd cdash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indiana University 2010-2011 Men's Basketball Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I agree with the assessment of what that team should be.

    I don't know why we couldn't get a guy like Williams. UNC was in a mire just like we were until they got him. What brought him in was the Felton/May/McCants class.

    Why can't 2012 be that sort of class for us if we add Harris? PG/Big man/Wing
    Well, he was a UNC alum, I think that's what did it. Dean Smith, his mentor, called and personally implored him to take the job. We don't have anything like that here. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment. With Harris, that 2012 class would be the framework of a national title contender. I really believe that.

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