Re: comments from an O'brien supporter - warning its lengthy
Hi folks. I haven't figured out how to say "thank you" yet (do you have to post a certain number of times before this feature is activated?), so I'll just do it here. Many thanks to Flox, PacersPride, Emcee, Brad8888, Cordobes, BlueNGold, daschysta, Kester99, colts19 and everyone else for taking the time to read through this and for sharing your feedback.
Thank you. Before sharing my opinion on the playing time of younger players, I think it's sometimes best to take a step back and to take more of a 500 foot view of things.
Out of the 15 players taken in the 2nd half of the 2nd round of the 2009 draft (i.e., picks 46 through 60), only three are currently in the NBA... A.J. Price, Patrick Mills and Lester Hudson. Mills and Hudson have COMBINED appeared in 40 NBA games, zero starts. A.J. Price? 56 games played, 2 starts. It's interesting how different fans have completely different takeaways with respect to the playing time of a player like A.J. Price. I look at it and see it as another example of O'Brien keeping an open mind and demonstrating a willingness to let younger players receive more playing time (which again is why I invoked J.R. Bremer in my Case for JOB... granted I think Price is better than Bremer was, but that example is meant to remind people that actually on balance, O'Brien is pretty good about giving younger players an opportunity compared to other coaches). Meanwhile, some of the JOB bashers might look at the A.J. Price issue and say that O'Brien is a prick or whatever else, but actually, the amount of playing time that Price received is rather unusual.
Same thing with Paul George. We can't look at his playing time in isolation. Let's look at how other coaches have approached the decision of allocating playing time to rookies... (I'm excluding picks 1 through 5 because I think it's a different issue... besides exceptions like Hasheem Thabeet from a year ago, I think it's pretty much a given that the top 5 players in the draft will get more PT... and John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins are the two best players in the draft imo, so it makes sense that they will receive more playing time than the following 25 players).
6. Ekpe Udoh, Golden State—Hasn’t played, injured
7. Greg Monroe, Detroit—2 DNP-CD’s, averaging 17 mpg
8. Al-Farouq Aminu, Clippers—0 DNP-CD, 13 mpg
9. Gordon Hayward, Utah--1 DNP-CD, averaging 11 mpg (As an aside, I think Hayward ought to study Dunleavy's success under O'Brien--and if O'Brien is still coaching in 4 years, Hayward would be smart to look him up).
10.Paul George--2 DNP-CD'S, averaging 17 mpg
11. Cole Aldrich, OKC—3 DNP-CD’s, averaging 9 mpg
12. Xavier Henry, Memphis—2 DNP-CD’s, averaging 15 mpg
13. Ed Davis, Toronto—Injured, hasn’t played
14. Patrick Patterson, Houston—Hasn’t played, was assigned to the D-League this week
15. Larry Sanders, Milwaukee—4 DNP-CD’s, averaging 5 mpg
16. Luke Babbitt, Portland—6 DNP-CD’s, averaging 6 mpg
17. Kevin Seraphin, Washington—Hasn’t played
18. Eric Bledsoe, Clippers—0 DNP CD’s, 7 starts, averaging 29 mpg… Baron Davis is out of shape and not playing, and Bledsoe has made the most of his opportunity… shooting 50% from the floor… But not surprising that the Clippers are 1-9 with a rookie point guard
19. Avery Bradley, Boston—Hasn’t played
20. James Anderson, San Antonio—2 DNP’s, 1 CD, 1 b/c of injury, 17 mpg
21. Craig Brackins, Philadelphia—Hasn’t played
22. Elliot Williams, Portland—Hasn’t played—DNP CD first 5 games, then dislocated patella on 11/4… probably means he’s done for the year
23. Trevor Booker, Washington—3 DNP CD’s—6 mpg
24. Damion James, NJ—2 DNP CD’s, 7 mpg
25. Dominique Jones, Dallas—1 DNP CD, 6 mpg
26. Quincy Pondexter, New Orleans—5 DNP CD’s, 11 mpg
27. Jordan Crawford, Atlanta—5 DNP CD’s, 9 mpg
28. Greivis Vasquez, Memphis—6 DNP CD’s, 4 mpg
29. Daniel Orton, Orlando—Hasn’t played
30. Lazar Hayward, Minnesota—3 DNP CD’s, averaging 8 mpg
And let me say that I was very happy when we picked Paul George at 10. Some analysts made fun of the pick at the time but I thought it was a bold (and correct) move by Bird. Down the road he could be a key player for us.
But I'll also say... I've got no problem with him not playing right now. He's a 20 year old kid who was playing at Fresno State last year. He's just not used to this level of competition and there's no way of getting around that (as we can see above, some players like Brackins are on losing teams with more college experience, both in terms of years AND in playing against tougher competition, and they STILL are hardly playing right now). And Besides hurting the team, I think it could actually hurt the PLAYER to give him too many minutes too soon before he's ready. And I disagree with this idea that a player cannot develop when getting dnp-cd's. I've heard it said before by NBA players--you learn the most sometimes when you have a period of time of NOT playing and can instead focus solely on observing and learning/working hard in practice. He seems like a smart guy so hopefully he's using his time wisely.
Some people believe that George is not playing now because of something he posted on twitter.... I just don't see it the same way--like most coaches, O'Brien is basing his playing time on who is best equipped right now to help the team win. Here's what George's tweet told me.... like a lot of rookies coming in, he probably thought he was hot **** and that he was going to be a world beater in no time at all. I'm not knocking self-confidence, but I definitely think it's a mistake to reward a young player with minutes when they aren't performing well in games and/or practices. I think that approach only reinforces a false sense of entitlement which is bad for the developmental process. So, NOW is the time to remind the young fella that he's going to have to earn it through focused preparation and hard work (same goes for Lance Stephenson). In the long run he'll be better off for it. If come March the playoffs are out of reach then fine, give him more minutes regardless. But right now Dunleavy is playing great and Rush is clearly further along, so George has his work cut out for him if he expects to be included in our crowded wing rotation right now. And if folks don't care for playing older players--consider that if we don't play vets like Dunleavy and T.J. Ford then it's much less likely we will be able to deal them for our biggest need--a backup big--before the deadline. And I really don't trust Solo or Foster's health at this point. Posey has also been a solid player off the bench the last 2 games--his shot was off against Cleveland but I thought he made up for it on the defensive end.
I know a lot of people like to focus instead on soundbites from our coach... but I think that a lot of coaches can get a bit hyperbolic at times. Whether a person likes it or not, I think it's just O'Brien's way of recognizing and paying tribute to the hard work of some of the players.
O'Brien on Hibbert... "The best summer I've ever seen out of a player."
O'Brien on Hansbrough... "He looked like The Incredible Hulk when I saw him this summer."
O'Brien on Magnum Rolle... "He's been our best player in summer league."
O'Brien on Price... "He's been our best player in preseason." (I took that to mean he was so impressed with how hard he worked to come back from his injury and was trying to go out of his way to express that).
O'Brien on Dunleavy... "The hardest I've ever seen a player rehab to come back from that kind of an injury."
And likewise, he's probably not going to be gushing over the performance of a player in a 32 point blowout loss. So if people want to call the guy a liar or whatever that's fine, but I see consistency in his general approach with younger players.
Oh I promise I wasn't dodging you. I took a break from the NBA in July for vacation and such, and by the time I returned to the board it was August and we were able to pull off the Collison trade, so by that point the issue was moot. But I'd be happy to revisit my thoughts on this matter.
Keep in mind, I was not saying the move was without its drawbacks, but I was touting the idea because A). It was a sure thing (meaning, he was ours if we wanted him--and actually, I was also somewhat trying to prepare other fans for this possibility since there were rumors of a couple of teams interested in Arenas, and we were desperate for a point guard) and I didn't have faith at the time in our ability to get someone like Collison B). I didn't think the drawbacks were as detrimental as others did...
1). The contract--Yes it's huge, but in year one by trading Ford and Dunleavy for Arenas, we would have SAVED money (and opened up more playing time for guys like Rush and George). And by year 4 we'd have a massive expiring contract and potential trade chip. The problem I saw was year 3... we probably wouldn't be able to sign a player like Rush to an extension without exceeding the cap. But I could have lived with that.
2). Free agency 2011--Yes, no doubt about it that Arenas is overpaid, but what quality free agents will voluntarily come to Indiana next summer? You'd likely have to overpay them anyway to lure them here (and I for one do not want to pay a guy like Big Baby Davis something like $50 million over 5 years). I think Arenas would have been psyched to come here... it would have been his last shot at redemption at being the starting point guard on a playoff team, instead of being second fiddle to John Wall. You can tell he's definitely depressed right now. Coming here would have completely rejuvenated him imo.
3). Off the court issues overblown... Peter Vecsey played a big part in it, and while Arenas definitely made a mistake, I thought he got a raw deal. Yes I realize that because of the brawl we have to be more sensitive to issues like this, but it's worth noting that Arenas at one point was one of the most popular players in Wizards franchise history... with the exception of the Jordan years, the Wizards had their highest attendance numbers during his heyday of "hibachi!" and the like from 2005-2007, and I thought that Indiana would eventually embrace him as well. If you're interested in reading more, here's a good start...
http://reason.org/news/show/persecution-gilbert-arenas (warning, it's long )
4). At the time last June, I felt we needed more offensive firepower, guys who won't shy away from getting us points in a hurry... Arenas at 28 isn't the same player he was in 2006-07, when he had 8 games of 40 or more including 54 point and 60 point eruption games.... But I think he can still have maybe 3 good years left. He's off to a slow start this year since he hasn't played in so long, but last night was a good reminder that he can still play as he continues to rediscover his rhythm (30 points in 31 minutes).... and ultimately I think this would have helped Hibbert to surround him with 4 solid 3 point shooters... if teams wanted to double-team Hibbert then they would have to pay for it.
5). Moxie! LOL. We needed it. And back to the issue of younger players sitting on the bench, as this commercial from a few years ago reminds us, even Arenas was forced to ride the pine for that first half of his rookie season...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEJglM7iuMs
But again, it's moot now. We got Collison so well done Larry
Hi folks. I haven't figured out how to say "thank you" yet (do you have to post a certain number of times before this feature is activated?), so I'll just do it here. Many thanks to Flox, PacersPride, Emcee, Brad8888, Cordobes, BlueNGold, daschysta, Kester99, colts19 and everyone else for taking the time to read through this and for sharing your feedback.
Originally posted by kester99
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Out of the 15 players taken in the 2nd half of the 2nd round of the 2009 draft (i.e., picks 46 through 60), only three are currently in the NBA... A.J. Price, Patrick Mills and Lester Hudson. Mills and Hudson have COMBINED appeared in 40 NBA games, zero starts. A.J. Price? 56 games played, 2 starts. It's interesting how different fans have completely different takeaways with respect to the playing time of a player like A.J. Price. I look at it and see it as another example of O'Brien keeping an open mind and demonstrating a willingness to let younger players receive more playing time (which again is why I invoked J.R. Bremer in my Case for JOB... granted I think Price is better than Bremer was, but that example is meant to remind people that actually on balance, O'Brien is pretty good about giving younger players an opportunity compared to other coaches). Meanwhile, some of the JOB bashers might look at the A.J. Price issue and say that O'Brien is a prick or whatever else, but actually, the amount of playing time that Price received is rather unusual.
Same thing with Paul George. We can't look at his playing time in isolation. Let's look at how other coaches have approached the decision of allocating playing time to rookies... (I'm excluding picks 1 through 5 because I think it's a different issue... besides exceptions like Hasheem Thabeet from a year ago, I think it's pretty much a given that the top 5 players in the draft will get more PT... and John Wall and DeMarcus Cousins are the two best players in the draft imo, so it makes sense that they will receive more playing time than the following 25 players).
6. Ekpe Udoh, Golden State—Hasn’t played, injured
7. Greg Monroe, Detroit—2 DNP-CD’s, averaging 17 mpg
8. Al-Farouq Aminu, Clippers—0 DNP-CD, 13 mpg
9. Gordon Hayward, Utah--1 DNP-CD, averaging 11 mpg (As an aside, I think Hayward ought to study Dunleavy's success under O'Brien--and if O'Brien is still coaching in 4 years, Hayward would be smart to look him up).
10.Paul George--2 DNP-CD'S, averaging 17 mpg
11. Cole Aldrich, OKC—3 DNP-CD’s, averaging 9 mpg
12. Xavier Henry, Memphis—2 DNP-CD’s, averaging 15 mpg
13. Ed Davis, Toronto—Injured, hasn’t played
14. Patrick Patterson, Houston—Hasn’t played, was assigned to the D-League this week
15. Larry Sanders, Milwaukee—4 DNP-CD’s, averaging 5 mpg
16. Luke Babbitt, Portland—6 DNP-CD’s, averaging 6 mpg
17. Kevin Seraphin, Washington—Hasn’t played
18. Eric Bledsoe, Clippers—0 DNP CD’s, 7 starts, averaging 29 mpg… Baron Davis is out of shape and not playing, and Bledsoe has made the most of his opportunity… shooting 50% from the floor… But not surprising that the Clippers are 1-9 with a rookie point guard
19. Avery Bradley, Boston—Hasn’t played
20. James Anderson, San Antonio—2 DNP’s, 1 CD, 1 b/c of injury, 17 mpg
21. Craig Brackins, Philadelphia—Hasn’t played
22. Elliot Williams, Portland—Hasn’t played—DNP CD first 5 games, then dislocated patella on 11/4… probably means he’s done for the year
23. Trevor Booker, Washington—3 DNP CD’s—6 mpg
24. Damion James, NJ—2 DNP CD’s, 7 mpg
25. Dominique Jones, Dallas—1 DNP CD, 6 mpg
26. Quincy Pondexter, New Orleans—5 DNP CD’s, 11 mpg
27. Jordan Crawford, Atlanta—5 DNP CD’s, 9 mpg
28. Greivis Vasquez, Memphis—6 DNP CD’s, 4 mpg
29. Daniel Orton, Orlando—Hasn’t played
30. Lazar Hayward, Minnesota—3 DNP CD’s, averaging 8 mpg
And let me say that I was very happy when we picked Paul George at 10. Some analysts made fun of the pick at the time but I thought it was a bold (and correct) move by Bird. Down the road he could be a key player for us.
But I'll also say... I've got no problem with him not playing right now. He's a 20 year old kid who was playing at Fresno State last year. He's just not used to this level of competition and there's no way of getting around that (as we can see above, some players like Brackins are on losing teams with more college experience, both in terms of years AND in playing against tougher competition, and they STILL are hardly playing right now). And Besides hurting the team, I think it could actually hurt the PLAYER to give him too many minutes too soon before he's ready. And I disagree with this idea that a player cannot develop when getting dnp-cd's. I've heard it said before by NBA players--you learn the most sometimes when you have a period of time of NOT playing and can instead focus solely on observing and learning/working hard in practice. He seems like a smart guy so hopefully he's using his time wisely.
Some people believe that George is not playing now because of something he posted on twitter.... I just don't see it the same way--like most coaches, O'Brien is basing his playing time on who is best equipped right now to help the team win. Here's what George's tweet told me.... like a lot of rookies coming in, he probably thought he was hot **** and that he was going to be a world beater in no time at all. I'm not knocking self-confidence, but I definitely think it's a mistake to reward a young player with minutes when they aren't performing well in games and/or practices. I think that approach only reinforces a false sense of entitlement which is bad for the developmental process. So, NOW is the time to remind the young fella that he's going to have to earn it through focused preparation and hard work (same goes for Lance Stephenson). In the long run he'll be better off for it. If come March the playoffs are out of reach then fine, give him more minutes regardless. But right now Dunleavy is playing great and Rush is clearly further along, so George has his work cut out for him if he expects to be included in our crowded wing rotation right now. And if folks don't care for playing older players--consider that if we don't play vets like Dunleavy and T.J. Ford then it's much less likely we will be able to deal them for our biggest need--a backup big--before the deadline. And I really don't trust Solo or Foster's health at this point. Posey has also been a solid player off the bench the last 2 games--his shot was off against Cleveland but I thought he made up for it on the defensive end.
I know a lot of people like to focus instead on soundbites from our coach... but I think that a lot of coaches can get a bit hyperbolic at times. Whether a person likes it or not, I think it's just O'Brien's way of recognizing and paying tribute to the hard work of some of the players.
O'Brien on Hibbert... "The best summer I've ever seen out of a player."
O'Brien on Hansbrough... "He looked like The Incredible Hulk when I saw him this summer."
O'Brien on Magnum Rolle... "He's been our best player in summer league."
O'Brien on Price... "He's been our best player in preseason." (I took that to mean he was so impressed with how hard he worked to come back from his injury and was trying to go out of his way to express that).
O'Brien on Dunleavy... "The hardest I've ever seen a player rehab to come back from that kind of an injury."
And likewise, he's probably not going to be gushing over the performance of a player in a 32 point blowout loss. So if people want to call the guy a liar or whatever that's fine, but I see consistency in his general approach with younger players.
Originally posted by PacersPride
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Keep in mind, I was not saying the move was without its drawbacks, but I was touting the idea because A). It was a sure thing (meaning, he was ours if we wanted him--and actually, I was also somewhat trying to prepare other fans for this possibility since there were rumors of a couple of teams interested in Arenas, and we were desperate for a point guard) and I didn't have faith at the time in our ability to get someone like Collison B). I didn't think the drawbacks were as detrimental as others did...
1). The contract--Yes it's huge, but in year one by trading Ford and Dunleavy for Arenas, we would have SAVED money (and opened up more playing time for guys like Rush and George). And by year 4 we'd have a massive expiring contract and potential trade chip. The problem I saw was year 3... we probably wouldn't be able to sign a player like Rush to an extension without exceeding the cap. But I could have lived with that.
2). Free agency 2011--Yes, no doubt about it that Arenas is overpaid, but what quality free agents will voluntarily come to Indiana next summer? You'd likely have to overpay them anyway to lure them here (and I for one do not want to pay a guy like Big Baby Davis something like $50 million over 5 years). I think Arenas would have been psyched to come here... it would have been his last shot at redemption at being the starting point guard on a playoff team, instead of being second fiddle to John Wall. You can tell he's definitely depressed right now. Coming here would have completely rejuvenated him imo.
3). Off the court issues overblown... Peter Vecsey played a big part in it, and while Arenas definitely made a mistake, I thought he got a raw deal. Yes I realize that because of the brawl we have to be more sensitive to issues like this, but it's worth noting that Arenas at one point was one of the most popular players in Wizards franchise history... with the exception of the Jordan years, the Wizards had their highest attendance numbers during his heyday of "hibachi!" and the like from 2005-2007, and I thought that Indiana would eventually embrace him as well. If you're interested in reading more, here's a good start...
http://reason.org/news/show/persecution-gilbert-arenas (warning, it's long )
4). At the time last June, I felt we needed more offensive firepower, guys who won't shy away from getting us points in a hurry... Arenas at 28 isn't the same player he was in 2006-07, when he had 8 games of 40 or more including 54 point and 60 point eruption games.... But I think he can still have maybe 3 good years left. He's off to a slow start this year since he hasn't played in so long, but last night was a good reminder that he can still play as he continues to rediscover his rhythm (30 points in 31 minutes).... and ultimately I think this would have helped Hibbert to surround him with 4 solid 3 point shooters... if teams wanted to double-team Hibbert then they would have to pay for it.
5). Moxie! LOL. We needed it. And back to the issue of younger players sitting on the bench, as this commercial from a few years ago reminds us, even Arenas was forced to ride the pine for that first half of his rookie season...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEJglM7iuMs
But again, it's moot now. We got Collison so well done Larry
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