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Thread: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    To me it looks like Rush could be a good driver from wat i saw from the preseason and the end of last season.
    Also with Darren feeding him passes and guiding the offense, I think Brandon will improve his offense all around.

    EDIT: Brandon needs to be way more aggressive and move without the ball and drive to get fouled. He looked better in preseason like you said. Hopefully it continues.
    Last edited by Trophy; 11-03-2010 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    To me it looks like Rush could be a good driver from wat i saw from the preseason and the end of last season.
    he went to the basket more in this preseason than he did last season. And everyonce in a while he makes a good move. But to me, he always seems skiddish..and quite often doesn't finish the basket. I'd rather have him shoot a three than drive, personally.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    WHAT!?

    You're telling me that it doesn't matter to you how many shots it takes a player to get to 5 made fgs then?

    Are you serious?

    Going 5 for 5 does a lot more than going 5 for 10. Should I start the list or just say that it frees up 5 possessions? A missed shot and a defensive rebound is just as good as a turnover. They are empty possessions.


    Now which "team" is falling off the deep end?
    Bear in mind we aren't talking extremes like 25 shots to make 10, we're talking a reasonable number of shots with a reasonable shooting percentage.

    The 5-for-5 guy can be a problem if, on those extra possessions, the rest of the team is unable to score for whatever reason - they are having a bad shooting night, the defense sags off Mr. 5-for-5 because he only shoots when he has to, his other 5 possessions end in turning over the ball, whatever. The thing is that it isn't just a game of individual statistics, the individual statistics have to fit in to what the rest of the team is doing.

    Defenses study players. They'll know if you have a guy who only puts up a few shots and, even if he's guaranteed to make them, will let him go ahead because they know he'll be more likely to send it to someone else and they'll concentrate on that.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    he went to the basket more in this preseason than he did last season. And everyonce in a while he makes a good move. But to me, he always seems skiddish..and quite often doesn't finish the basket. I'd rather have him shoot a three than drive, personally.
    me 2 but u have to keep the defense at bay every once in awhile u have to drive.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Bear in mind we aren't talking extremes like 25 shots to make 10, we're talking a reasonable number of shots with a reasonable shooting percentage.

    The 5-for-5 guy can be a problem if, on those extra possessions, the rest of the team is unable to score for whatever reason - they are having a bad shooting night, the defense sags off Mr. 5-for-5 because he only shoots when he has to, his other 5 possessions end in turning over the ball, whatever. The thing is that it isn't just a game of individual statistics, the individual statistics have to fit in to what the rest of the team is doing.

    Defenses study players. They'll know if you have a guy who only puts up a few shots and, even if he's guaranteed to make them, will let him go ahead because they know he'll be more likely to send it to someone else and they'll concentrate on that.
    But that's not an accurate description of Brandon.

    Brandon will shoot if he's open. He just doesn't move, so he's not open very often.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I think people underrate Rush offensively.

    His problem in the past is that if you NEED Rush to score, you are in trouble. Last season we were counting on him to be a major offensive option, and its just not in his DNA.

    However, he is a more savvy player than he has gotten credit for. He understands basketball, he knows how to play within an offensive system, the offensive downgrade from Dunleavy to Rush is not so pronounced, especially considering you will be putting Rush in his 4th option offensive role that most suits him anyway.

    I saw him play the give and go game with Hibbert in his rookie year, he is in fact capable of doing a bit more than just camping at the arc. He understands spacing and cuts. Or at least I think he has the capability too.

    I think as a 4th option, with the ability to play OFF of better offensive options, with the benefit of playing next to a superior point guard, with the ability to collect open perimeter shots produced from an effective inside out offense run through Hibbert... You might see Brandon Rush put in a slightly better position to succeed than you did last season. Just a thought.
    This perspective is very logical and is most likely to sway me.

    Hmm

    Nope, not quite. I think I just remember too much the frustrations with having someone who COULD score but wouldn't (McKey) and having someone who couldn't score but was a specialist (Foster), and think a player who has flaws but is more likely to round out your lineup, is better.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Brandon, as a wingman should attempt at least 5 three pointers a game. I mean if he's ice cold by his 8th attempt then he can stop and shoot more inside.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Bear in mind we aren't talking extremes like 25 shots to make 10, we're talking a reasonable number of shots with a reasonable shooting percentage.
    And I will take 100% over 50% everyday of the week, and twice on Sundays. It still doesn't change the fact that 5 for 5 is better than 5 for 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    The 5-for-5 guy can be a problem if, on those extra possessions, the rest of the team is unable to score for whatever reason - they are having a bad shooting night, the defense sags off Mr. 5-for-5 because he only shoots when he has to, his other 5 possessions end in turning over the ball, whatever. The thing is that it isn't just a game of individual statistics, the individual statistics have to fit in to what the rest of the team is doing.
    So let me get this argument straight. Going 5 for 10 is better than going 5 for 5 depending on the shot selection. But also because if on those 5 extra possessions they don't scoer it's a bad thing?

    Hate to tell you, but on those 5 extra possessions, if they don't even score once, it evens out with the player that went 5 for 10.

    It can't be worse, because it's the exact same thing.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    But that's not an accurate description of Brandon.

    Brandon will shoot if he's open. He just doesn't move, so he's not open very often.
    Well, he's not a 100% shooter, either, it was just trying to narrow down to a single element for discussion.

    However, since Brandon doesn't move, I stick to my position that he doesn't cause the defense to have to work very hard on him, leaving them to put more energy into the other 4 players.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    This perspective is very logical and is most likely to sway me.

    Hmm

    Nope, not quite. I think I just remember too much the frustrations with having someone who COULD score but wouldn't (McKey) and having someone who couldn't score but was a specialist (Foster), and think a player who has flaws but is more likely to round out your lineup, is better.
    So the solution is to have a player, who can't defend, take more shots but only average around 13pts a game?

    Over a player that plays better defense, who doesn't shoot as much, but with a higher percentage, who is going to average 11pts a game?




    Like I've said from the beginning. Dunleavy will not score 16+ a game. He just won't. And if he does, that means that Roy, Danny, or DC is just playing like crap.



    Your 4th option should be a good shooter, who fills OTHER needs.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Well, he's not a 100% shooter, either, it was just trying to narrow down to a single element for discussion.

    However, since Brandon doesn't move, I stick to my position that he doesn't cause the defense to have to work very hard on him, leaving them to put more energy into the other 4 players.
    But if they leave him open to focus on the other four, he's a better shooter than Dunleavy and more likely to hit the shot when the ball ends up in his hands.

    For the sake of argument, I will concede that Dunleavy's a better offensive player than Rush, but there is no question that Rush is a better defensive player than Dunleavy.

    Can you agree that the difference between Dunleavy and Rush offensively is far smaller than the difference between Rush and Dunleavy defensively?

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I just love this argument. Better defense or better cutting/floor spacing?


    You know it's a Jim O'Brien coached team when offense trumps all.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So the solution is to have a player, who can't defend, take more shots but only average around 13pts a game?

    Over a player that plays better defense, who doesn't shoot as much, but with a higher percentage, who is going to average 11pts a game?



    Like I've said from the beginning. Dunleavy will not score 16+ a game. He just won't. And if he does, that means that Roy, Danny, or DC is just playing like crap.



    Your 4th option should be a good shooter, who fills OTHER needs.

    ya ur 4th and 5th options are normaly good defenders and dont need to shoot or have the ball to have an impact on a game. look at most great teams like the old bulls Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr. Also I dont see people in utah asking to bench raja bell/ wes mathews last yr because all he does is defend and make 3s.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Can you agree that the difference between Dunleavy and Rush offensively is far smaller than the difference between Rush and Dunleavy defensively?
    In some ways yes - the shooting ability difference is far smaller than the defensive difference.

    In other ways, no - I think Dunleavy's effect on the rest of the offense is much greater than Rush's.

    Since I don't think Dunleavy is a useless defender, the overall combination of effects favors Dunleavy. Only to a certain level, though, such that if Brandon would move without the ball and perform in the offense like we've seen him do at the end of seasons in the past, he might trump Dunleavy. I just have little confidence he will do so.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    You can't have too much of a good thing, certainly. But if you have a lot of guys who are giving you the same thing, than doesn't it make sense to perhaps subtract one of those elements and replace it with one that addresses a weakness? Wing defense in this case.
    You make a good point. I think Mike is better at offense than Rush by greater margin that Rush is better at defense than Mike. You obviously disagree.

    Actually maybe that is what this whole thread and the entire argument we are having comes down to.

    I think if the pacers are playing the heat for example where you need your shooting guard defending Wade, then I would expect Rush to play maybe more than Mike - but I think for almost every other NBA opponent Danny can guard the better wing and Mike is sufficent to guard the lesser wing. And for those few teams where they have two really good scorers, OK play Rush more

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Right now I agree with the last 2 post by BillS and Unclebuck. Dunleavy plays much better in JOB's offense. Rush stands around too much. Right now, Dunleavy is the better option to start.

    Like BillS I hope Rush comes back and plays well and moves like he should within the offense. Collison expressed interest in helping improve Rush's game maybe that and getting in trouble (hopefully not smoking anymore weed) will be what Rush needs to become the player we all want him to be.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Well, he's not a 100% shooter, either, it was just trying to narrow down to a single element for discussion.

    However, since Brandon doesn't move, I stick to my position that he doesn't cause the defense to have to work very hard on him, leaving them to put more energy into the other 4 players.
    So in your mind a player like Bruce Bowen who's speciality was to stay on the corner, shoot threes to open the floor for the bigs and play defense is wortless?(this how I see it)........... Damn I wonder if Pop agrees with this.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 11-03-2010 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So in your mind a player like Bruce Bowen who's speciality was to stay on the corner, shoot threes to open the floor for the bigs and play defense is wortless?(this how I see it)........... Damn I wonder if Pop agrees with this.
    ya people like Bruce Bowen are key to championship teams.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I think the general point is this assertion that our offense is going to fall apart without Mike's court savvy in the starting lineup.fficeffice" />>>
    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    >>
    I just think that is completely silly. I mean, are we totally screwed next year if Mike is no longer on the team??? Is our offense hopeless without the game changer Mike Dunleavy making cuts and spacing the floor?>>

    Wait a minute, please. I don’t believe anyone is suggesting that Dunleavy is the “where all, end all” of the offensive unit. At least that has never been my argument. But if that is what the pro-Rush sentiment believes regarding our argument, then I believe that you miss the subtlety of the point we have been trying to make… or at least that I have been trying to make.

    Since86 is probably correct in stating that the Pacers will probably score points whether or not Mike is on the floor. I’m not certain of whether they might score slightly more or slightly less, but they would get points none the less.

    What I am stating is that I believe Dunleavy’s offensive role is not that of a scorer, but rather that of a facilitator. There is no doubt that having a new PG and having a much improved, passing Hibbert on the floor also leads to greater facilitation of the offense. Someone a heck of a lot more knowledgeable than I can attempt to weight the contributions of each.

    But there are a few facts, not suppositions, but facts, that can be viewed. Granger is getting more uncontested shots and Granger is making every attempt to move a lot more without the basketball than in prior seasons.

    I would agree with anyone who wishes to state that a new PG and a double-teamed Hibbert contribute to Danny’s additional uncontested shots. I also agree with what others have stated on both sides of this argument that the greater amount of offensive motion has also led to more open shots on the part of all players in the starting unit.

    I doubt that anyone would argue with the statement that an uncontested shot is a higher quality shot (i.e. a more makeable shot) than a contested shot taken at the same spot on the floor. And this is where I believe Dunleavy plays a part. His constant motion facilitates all players on the court getting uncontested shots. Granger, in trying to be more in motion this season, accomplishes the same thing.

    I think this is something we saw quite a bit with Reggie. His motion would often times carry him through the lane or along the baseline, even though his intent was not always in receiving the pass. In such cases, his decoy run served two purposes: To wear down his defender by keeping him in constant motion and secondly, to distract another player’s defender for the split moment it takes the player to pop off of Reggie’s motion to get an uncontested shot.

    I believe almost any player in motion accomplishes the same thing. Danny and Mike in motion wear down their defenders, they create space and possible uncontested shots for themselves and their teammates.

    Does it not make sense that if one of your perimeter players is not in purposeful motion that the efforts of those that are in motion can be negated? At least, based in Bobby Knight’s substitution patterns through the years, that is what I came to believe.

    I have not said that Rush is not capable of making a better starting SG than Dunleavy. And, I have always been a firm believer that young players make their most marked improvement going into their third years. For whatever reason, a light goes on or they learn better what to work on during that second summer or who knows what, they just seem to show better improvement in their third seasons. I am hoping the same thing for Rush… that he is a much improved player over last season.

    If he does improve, that is only part of the equation. The Pacers, now run an offense that is much more dependent on PNR and on motion than in the last few seasons. If Rush cannot pick up on that, then his insertion into the lineup could actually be detrimental to the performance of the starting unit. After all, do you really think Danny would get as many uncontested shots if his SG is merely spending his time standing outside the arc?

    I would even be willing to eventually insert Rush into the lineup if he can master purposeful motion and he proves that he is far more offensively aggressive than last season, regardless of whether he makes any other improvements. In my opinion, if Rush cannot be offensively aggressive, and use his athleticism to get to the rim and/or the free throw line, then he is just taking up a roster spot. That would make him no more important to the team than DJones.

    I hold out hope, but just don’t think Rush will make the improvements that are needed. As someone said earlier, it is just not in his DNA. He was a perimeter player at Kansas and he is still a mere perimeter player now. Conseco holds over 18,000 spectators. The last place we need one is on the floor.
    Last edited by beast23; 11-03-2010 at 02:23 PM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    i might change my username to something brandon rush related i think i might make it BRush Force 25

    rush > dunleavy
    george > dunleavy
    rush = george (both are really good young players)
    In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So in your mind a player like Bruce Bowen who's speciality was to stay on the corner, shoot threes to open the floor for the bigs and play defense is wortless?(this how I see it)........... Damn I wonder if Pop agrees with this.
    OK, why is everything interpreted as an extreme when it is 5 responses down from the qualifying post?

    Did I say Rush was worthless? No. I said that the way Dun plays offense is more valuable to this team than Rush as he has played in general, and that the overall is greater than the advantage Rush brings on defense.

    I refuse to believe that you are trying to say Rush is the equivalent to Bruce Bowen or that the rest of the lineup is equivalent to the rest of the Spurs' lineup.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Swift View Post
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    i might change my username to something brandon rush related i think i might make it BRush Force 25

    rush > dunleavy
    george > dunleavy
    rush = george (both are really good young players)
    agree
    but Robert Swift is epic dont let his leagacy die lol

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    agree
    but Robert Swift is epic dont let his leagacy die lol


    he is the coolest non pacer in the nba (or used to be in the nba)

    rswift > chris birdman anderson

    i really dont want swift to be a pacer but at a cheap price and for him to sit on the bench he would be a really fun player between the hair, the tats
    In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I think both side of the argument fully understands the other sides argument. So at this point further explanation is useless.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Swift View Post
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    he is the coolest non pacer in the nba (or used to be in the nba)

    rswift > chris birdman anderson

    i really dont want swift to be a pacer but at a cheap price and for him to sit on the bench he would be a really fun player between the hair, the tats
    he is still in NBA2k11 43 overall

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