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Thread: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

  1. #151

    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, fair enough. Right now my biggest concern is that this current Pacers team win as many games as possible and I firmly believe that Mike Dunleavy will help this current Pacers team win more games than Rush will.

    OK, if you want me to address long-term (2 or 3 years from now) I expect Paul George to be much, much, much better than Rush anyway and Rush likely will not be on the team. I'm not saying Dunleavy will either, but I think Rush and Mike have an equal chance of being on the Pacers in two or three seasons - chances being maybe 10-15%. If by chance Rush is still on the team (remember he has almost been traded twice, suspended by the NBA once, tested positive for druge use three times), but if he is still on the team he'll be a backup shooting guard, who might be in the regular 9 man rotation.

    OK, so for sake of argument, play along here for a minute. The above two paragraps is what I firmly believe as of November 3, 2010. Why should anyone who believes what I believe want Rush to play now. if you want to play the better player now, pl;ay Mike. if you are thinking future, then play George. Why play Rush as I see him as a short term player anyway
    But I don't think anyone wants to remove Dun from the rotation.

    There's just a four wing rotation. And the idea is that Rush compliments the starters better, and Dun is better for the bench unit.

    And if, as we're saying, Rush outplays Dun, and is the best SG, wouldn't it help the pacers win more if the best SG is starting?

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    But I don't think anyone wants to remove Dun from the rotation.

    There's just a four wing rotation. And the idea is that Rush compliments the starters better, and Dun is better for the bench unit.

    And if, as we're saying, Rush outplays Dun, and is the best SG, wouldn't it help the pacers win more if the best SG is starting?
    If there is going to be a three-wing rotation, which is what JOB said he prefers, then yes, I would rather remove Dunleavy from the rotation.

    If it is a four-wing rotation, I agree with everything you said.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You want a statistic? Here's one for you.

    105.1 points per game. That's how many points the Pacers averaged per game when Mike was on the bench during the 08-09 season.

    Are we going to argue that, that roster is more offensively talented?
    OK, I'll do some things that you might deny are valid, but I'll do them anyway.

    First, where does that rank in the league for the year? By my calculations based on other teams' data from 82games.com, we were 5th in points per game. OK, so far, seems to support your point.

    But, we were playing JOB's running offense, so the pace may have had to do with some of that difference. Let me calculate points per possession, since I could not find that broken out.

    Indiana shows as 1.083 points per possession, which is 18th and correlates fairly well with where we finished that year (yes, yes, correlation is not causation, but in this case it means the statistic is likely not out of line).

    This tells me we DID need offensive improvement that year.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, so for sake of argument, play along here for a minute. The above two paragraps is what I firmly believe as of November 3, 2010. Why should anyone who believes what I believe want Rush to play now. if you want to play the better player now, pl;ay Mike. if you are thinking future, then play George. Why play Rush as I see him as a short term player anyway
    Umm....maybe because Rush will still be a Pacer next season, and therefore will have some influence on how the team performs?

    So you think George will be the starter, great, so do I. But who is going to be his backup? The non-Pacer Mike Dunleavy?

    Or are you going to make the argument that backups don't matter?

    (Didn't the Pacers finally pick up his option for next season?)

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    This was in reference to shooting percentage. The point was Dun didn't shoot well that game, as he went 1-7 on jumpshots. The 1 being at the end of the game when it didn't matter.
    I still don't get it. Isn't it a GOOD thing if a player who is having an off night on the perimeter drives the lane or cuts for layups?

    It sounds like someone is talking like those layups don't mean anything, it is only jump shots that count as "shots", and layups are really only gimmes that don't reflect the offensive ability of the player.

    I remain boggled by this.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    This tells me we DID need offensive improvement that year.
    We needed a lot of things. Yeah, like better shooting. So you're rebuttal is that the scoring isn't efficient enough, and your solution is to play a player (Mike) that doesn't shoot the ball as efficent as another (Brandon).

    The other statistic that year is that their opponents averaged 106pts a game. I would think that defense would be the biggest need, but then again, I don't know anything about basketball.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    OK, I'll do some things that you might deny are valid, but I'll do them anyway.

    First, where does that rank in the league for the year? By my calculations based on other teams' data from 82games.com, we were 5th in points per game. OK, so far, seems to support your point.

    But, we were playing JOB's running offense, so the pace may have had to do with some of that difference. Let me calculate points per possession, since I could not find that broken out.

    Indiana shows as 1.083 points per possession, which is 18th and correlates fairly well with where we finished that year (yes, yes, correlation is not causation, but in this case it means the statistic is likely not out of line).

    This tells me we DID need offensive improvement that year.
    I think the general point is this assertion that our offense is going to fall apart without Mike's court savvy in the starting lineup.

    I just think that is completely silly. I mean, are we totally screwed next year if Mike is no longer on the team??? Is our offense hopeless without the game changer Mike Dunleavy making cuts and spacing the floor?

    This is Mike Freaking Dunleavy we are talking about.

    I think people are severely overestimating his impact. Sure he helps, but this debate is very simple. I think the offensive drop off from Mike to Brandon is minimal, considering we are talking about a guy who is going to be the 4th offensive option anyway... but the defensive upgrade is significant, and that is what we need in the starting lineup. You have a PG who is struggling defensively, and without Rush, you are forcing your best player/scorer to take the tougher defensive assignment all the time. Not an ideal situation.

    For the record (again), I'm not saying throw Brandon in with the starters the second he is available and mess with the chemistry... He needs to earn his way back.... but if/when he does, his skill set is much more useful in the starting lineup. We already have guys who can score/cut/pass without Mike Dunleavy.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    We needed a lot of things. Yeah, like better shooting. So you're rebuttal is that the scoring isn't efficient enough, and your solution is to play a player (Mike) that doesn't shoot the ball as efficent as another (Brandon).

    The other statistic that year is that their opponents averaged 106pts a game. I would think that defense would be the biggest need, but then again, I don't know anything about basketball.
    My assertion is that our offensive improvement this year is going to center much more on running an inside outside game through Roy Hibbert in the post, combined with a much more effective scoring point guard manning the ship.

    Does Dunleavy help the offense? Yes, but I think his contributions have been severely overstated in this thread. He isn't gonna make or break this team offensively. Give me the guy who defends PLEASE.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    This is devolving to a series of "yeah, but..." "yeah, but..." "yeah, but..." so it may just need to wind down as people get tired rather than somehow ending with a point.

    My personal feeling is that if Rush could be aggressive enough to be as involved in the offense every game then his increase in efficiency and increase in defense makes sense. If he isn't taking shots, then efficiency doesn't matter - 100% of 5 shots is no different than 50% of 10 when taken in a vacuum, but if the player taking 5 shots doesn't draw defense because opponents figure he won't shoot then the 10 shot player contributes more to other team members getting easier shots.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I still don't get it. Isn't it a GOOD thing if a player who is having an off night on the perimeter drives the lane or cuts for layups?

    It sounds like someone is talking like those layups don't mean anything, it is only jump shots that count as "shots", and layups are really only gimmes that don't reflect the offensive ability of the player.

    I remain boggled by this.
    Come on. I already responded to this. That was not at all what I was arguing.

    I strongly believe that in order for Mike Dunleavy to make up for his defensive problems, he needs to be able to shoot the ball well from the perimeter. I was just making my point that even though it shows that he was 6-13 (a respectable enough percentage) he had a bad shooting night.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I'm really looking forward to seeing how Brandon will play with Darren.

    Darren is looking forward to it. That's one of the things he said when we first acquired him was that he's looking forward to playing with Brandon and hoping he can help make him a more consistent shooter.

    Again, whatever lineup is getting us wins I say leave it alone.

  14. #162

    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    What Does Mike Dunleavy do that the rest of the starting lineup doesn't do?

    Great passing? Roy, Josh, and Darren have the covered.
    Awareness? Roy and Josh (at least) have that covered
    Scoring? Danny, Roy, and Darren have that covered.
    Basketball IQ? Roy, Darren, and Josh have that covered.

    However, no one in the starting line is a really good defender. Josh, maybe..but he's not as good as Rush. And Darren (our other perimeter player) is not a good defender. Rush brings something that is needed to the starting lineup. And if he fit offensively (which, I think he would) Our team would be better off with having a great perimeter defender in the starting lineup than it would having another good/smart offensive player. Particularly when that great defender is a more accurate shooter, and a pretty good passer. (And his BBall IQ is higher than is being given credit for.)

    Now Brandon has to earn it. And I'd want to see him play with the starters to see if there's good chemistry there (because that's important.) But on paper, Rush is the better choice.

    Then, that's not to mention, that all of the above that Dun does, is needed a lot on the bench. Heck, just having someone on the court who understands the defensive system with George may help George out. And Dun would help move the ball, and help the shooting/scoring situation.

    It just seems like a theoretical perfect fit, on both sides. Problem is theory isn't always right, and Rush has to earn it. It shouldn't just be handed to him.

    edit: Also, Rush's problem isn't that he won't shoot. It's that he's a spot up shooter, and won't shoot if he's not open. Which means the defense does have to pay attention to him. His problem on offense, IMO, that might hurt the team, is the fact that Brandon doesn't move without the ball. he just picks a spot and stays there..(which means he does get less shots, because he's not open nearly as often as Dun is) Brandon needs to just watch hours and hours of tape of Ray Allen..
    Last edited by Sookie; 11-03-2010 at 12:52 PM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    100% of 5 shots is no different than 50% of 10 when taken in a vacuum, but if the player taking 5 shots doesn't draw defense because opponents figure he won't shoot then the 10 shot player contributes more to other team members getting easier shots.
    WHAT!?

    You're telling me that it doesn't matter to you how many shots it takes a player to get to 5 made fgs then?

    Are you serious?

    Going 5 for 5 does a lot more than going 5 for 10. Should I start the list or just say that it frees up 5 possessions? A missed shot and a defensive rebound is just as good as a turnover. They are empty possessions.


    Now which "team" is falling off the deep end?

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    What Does Mike Dunleavy do that the rest of the starting lineup doesn't do?

    Great passing? Roy, Josh, and Darren have the covered.
    Awareness? Roy and Josh (at least) have that covered
    Scoring? Danny, Roy, and Darren have that covered.
    Basketball IQ? Roy, Darren, and Josh have that covered.
    I think Danny can fit into all of those categories too.

    At least the basketball IQ and awareness.

    He has most of the things a wing man needs so it's whoever plays well with Danny.

  19. #165

    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    I think Danny can fit into all of those categories too.

    At least the basketball IQ and awareness.

    He has most of the things a wing man needs so it's whoever plays well with Danny.
    Well, the thing is, Danny is simply used as a scorer. He doesn't really have to have the rest of that stuff, so I'm not saying he does or doesn't have it covered in terms of "what he can do" but simply, he doesn't have to do it in the offense.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    This is devolving to a series of "yeah, but..." "yeah, but..." "yeah, but..." so it may just need to wind down as people get tired rather than somehow ending with a point.

    My personal feeling is that if Rush could be aggressive enough to be as involved in the offense every game then his increase in efficiency and increase in defense makes sense. If he isn't taking shots, then efficiency doesn't matter - 100% of 5 shots is no different than 50% of 10 when taken in a vacuum, but if the player taking 5 shots doesn't draw defense because opponents figure he won't shoot then the 10 shot player contributes more to other team members getting easier shots.
    I think people underrate Rush offensively.

    His problem in the past is that if you NEED Rush to score, you are in trouble. Last season we were counting on him to be a major offensive option, and its just not in his DNA.

    However, he is a more savvy player than he has gotten credit for. He understands basketball, he knows how to play within an offensive system, the offensive downgrade from Dunleavy to Rush is not so pronounced, especially considering you will be putting Rush in his 4th option offensive role that most suits him anyway.

    I saw him play the give and go game with Hibbert in his rookie year, he is in fact capable of doing a bit more than just camping at the arc. He understands spacing and cuts. Or at least I think he has the capability too.

    I think as a 4th option, with the ability to play OFF of better offensive options, with the benefit of playing next to a superior point guard, with the ability to collect open perimeter shots produced from an effective inside out offense run through Hibbert... You might see Brandon Rush put in a slightly better position to succeed than you did last season. Just a thought.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 11-03-2010 at 12:57 PM.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave View Post
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    What you call discipline I call being timid, or worse lazy. How about instead of shooting the open three, or passing it away if its not there, putting it on the floor going towards the basket. Or even driving, drawing a defender and dishing. Or seeing an opening and cutting too it.

    Dunleavy does these things. He sees openings in the defense and acts. Rush just stands there. Being passive is a fault a lot of the time.
    Then Stephen Jackson is the smartest player in the NBA then. And yes, we're talking extremes.

    Rush isn't smart because he isn't aggressive, so the reverse also has to be true. Aggressiveness equals intelligence.

    Well then I change my entire argument. I don't want either Mike or Brandon. I was SJax back.

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  24. #168
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    What Does Mike Dunleavy do that the rest of the starting lineup doesn't do?

    Great passing? Roy, Josh, and Darren have the covered.
    Awareness? Roy and Josh (at least) have that covered
    Scoring? Danny, Roy, and Darren have that covered.
    Basketball IQ? Roy, Darren, and Josh have that covered.

    You know you could do that some type of argument with Wade and Lebron james. What does Wade do that Lebron doesn't? Nothing, so why do the Heat need Wade - he does the same thing that Lebron does.

    Obviously my analogy is absurd - except to point out you can never have enough of a good thing, you can never have enough good players, or smart players....

    (disclaimer: please no one suggest well Lebron and Wade are superstars and Mike is a borderline starter - that wasn't my point I was just showing how the argument I quoted I think isn't a good reason not to play Mike)

    Is it harmful to have 5 great passers on the court at the same time. ,

  25. #169

    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    And if you aren't good at driving to the basket, and you are good at shooting..isn't it smarter to shoot? Particularly when you have a coach that encourages you to shoot threes.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Well, the thing is, Danny is simply used as a scorer. He doesn't really have to have the rest of that stuff, so I'm not saying he does or doesn't have it covered in terms of "what he can do" but simply, he doesn't have to do it in the offense.
    I agree and also I think we're able to stop scorers from scoring too much when we have a defender next to Danny like Brandon.

    Mike brings a similar type of game as Danny except Danny's defense is probably a little better.

    Danny's scoring is the best thing he has to offer and his defense is average, but Brandon who can be a decent shooter at times and go on a hot streak is typically a really good defender all the time which might be needed if Danny is struggling defensively.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    And if you aren't good at driving to the basket, and you are good at shooting..isn't it smarter to shoot? Particularly when you have a coach that encourages you to shoot threes.
    To me it looks like Rush could be a good driver from wat i saw from the preseason and the end of last season.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You know you could do that some type of argument with Wade and Lebron james. What does Wade do that Lebron doesn't? Nothing, so why do the Heat need Wade - he does the same thing that Lebron does.

    Obviously my analogy is absurd - except to point out you can never have enough of a good thing, you can never have enough good players, or smart players....

    (disclaimer: please no one suggest well Lebron and Wade are superstars and Mike is a borderline starter - that wasn't my point I was just showing how the argument I quoted I think isn't a good reason not to play Mike)

    Is it harmful to have 5 great passers on the court at the same time. ,
    You can't have too much of a good thing, certainly. But if you have a lot of guys who are giving you the same thing, than doesn't it make sense to perhaps subtract one of those elements and replace it with one that addresses a weakness? Wing defense in this case.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Come on. I already responded to this. That was not at all what I was arguing.

    I strongly believe that in order for Mike Dunleavy to make up for his defensive problems, he needs to be able to shoot the ball well from the perimeter. I was just making my point that even though it shows that he was 6-13 (a respectable enough percentage) he had a bad shooting night.
    I was responding to Sookie, not you. However, given this response, IF your criterion for a wing is that they HAVE to always shoot well from the outside, then the argument is internally consistent and I can't refute it. However, I don't agree with the initial premise, especially with issues regarding getting to the FT line (which happens on drives and layups, not so much on outside shooting).
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I don't know which is digging up more passion. Mike/Brandon, or who wants to come out on top.


    Like I've said from the beginning, the starting 2guard is about #10 on the list of important things in order for the Pacers to have a successful season.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You know you could do that some type of argument with Wade and Lebron james. What does Wade do that Lebron doesn't? Nothing, so why do the Heat need Wade - he does the same thing that Lebron does.

    Obviously my analogy is absurd - except to point out you can never have enough of a good thing, you can never have enough good players, or smart players....

    (disclaimer: please no one suggest well Lebron and Wade are superstars and Mike is a borderline starter - that wasn't my point I was just showing how the argument I quoted I think isn't a good reason not to play Mike)

    Is it harmful to have 5 great passers on the court at the same time. ,
    Oh I agree.

    But I think Lebron and Wade do everything well on the basketball court, there really isn't a need for a different type of player. (Except shooting, but that's what the other players are for.)

    In this case. At best, Josh is a good defender. And Roy is an average defender. Danny seems to hustle and try a lot more, as does Darren, but neither are good. Dun tries too..but he's simply bad. (actually, Darren's bad.)

    Rush is a very good, possibly great defender. And that adds something that is extremely important, and extremely needed in the starting lineup.

    If Darren and Danny were fantastic defenders, I'd probably say "yea, keep Dun in the starting lineup" but they aren't. And the team needs one in the lineup. So essentially, what Brandon brings to the starting lineup is more valuable than what Dun brings..which was my point. (As well as, what Dun would bring to the bench unit, is needed. Because none of them have the above..except Tyler and TJ with scoring..but they score in different ways than Dun does)
    Last edited by Sookie; 11-03-2010 at 01:06 PM.

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