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Thread: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

  1. #126

    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Once again you come in and end the debate.

    although I suppose it would be fair to analyze who else was on the floor with Mike. Being there with Granger and hibbert can make a huge difference
    I'm sure the stats would have said the same thing about Murphy last year. Though I think Dunleavy is light years ahead of Murphy in overall talent. Dunleavy is having a great year. Rush is the only player on our team capable of keeping the quicker SGs in front of him. No stat is going to change that.

    It's been an obvious weakness of ours. George is a rookie, and Granger has never had the lateral quickness to D up the faster SGs. Granger is better suited gaurding SFs while Rush is hands down the best wing defender on our team. He keeps everyone in front of him. Collison is good at gaurding PGs.

    I just think we have no choice but to play Rush. Maybe him and Dunleavy and George split a fair amount of minutes at SG and keep Granger healthy and fresh for 82 games and hopefully more.

  2. #127
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    If Mike can't shoot, he can't play.
    Good thing for him that he was 6-13 over all huh?

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave View Post
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    Why, oh why cannot I convey this point. Those of us who want Dunleavy out there with the starting unit do NOT want him because of HIS individual scoring ability.

    It is because of how he plays in the offense. His teammates score more when he is in because of his constant and timely movements.

    Example: DC has the ball up top. JMac is by the left side of the FT line. Mike Dunleavy at the elbow 3. Mike cuts to the paint infront of JMac. JMacs defender steps away to his right to cut off the slashing Dunleavy. Dunleavy's defender does not switch to JMac. JMac rolls to basket, DC lobs, JMac dunk.

    That example is to show what I mean by Mike Dunleavy opening up opportunities for his teammates to score. Rush standing in usual corner like a statue creates nothing.
    It doesn't matter if you are talking about his INDIVIDUAL SCORING ABILITY OR AS A FACILITATOR. My point is that we already are going to have scoring from Hibbert, Granger, and Collison. Do you really think that those guys won't be able to score without the direct intervention from Dunleavy?

    We also haven't seen Rush in this offense that is supposed to be ran through Hibbert and controlled by a seemingly legitimate starting PG. In addition, we also do not have our "power" forward chucking up 3s on the perimeter. Those are shots perimeter players should be taking most of the time, at least if you ever want to grab an offensive rebound. Hibbert and Collison in their roles should benefit Rush more than anyone else on this team. Both will greatly minimize the need for Rush to create his own shot, which he has always struggled to do, including at Kansas. Collison himself listed Rush as one of the guys he is most eager to help improve, and it seems obvious enough to me as to why.

    Dunleavy apologists seem to forget that there are two sides of the floor in full court basketball. Some of you seem to not be any more concerned about defense than Troy Murphy was. Rush is needed in the 1st unit for his defense and long-range shooting. Now that JOB is actually interested in using an inside presence, there is actually a very important use for "spreading the floor." "Spreading the floor" can actually be very important if you also use an inside presence. Hibbert and Rush should be able to feed off of each other and create opportunities for each others with a legitimate inside-out game, and we may actually see some offensive rebounding now that our power forwards are going to be close to the basket and get even more shots.

    As I've said before, I do not hate Dunleavy and wouldn't mind seeing him sign a (much) lower cost contract with Indiana in the future, although he's admittedly not my first choice in that respect. But I think he's a good guy, and his offensive skills could be helpful in the 2nd unit. I just don't think it makes sense putting all of your offensively oriented players in the 1st unit. Kobe and Lebron will be in opponents' 1st units, and Rush needs to be in our 1st unit guarding them.

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  5. #129
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave View Post
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    When he is with the starters, individual scoring is not necessarily a requirement. Mike helps open things up for the others. Now if Brandon would move, pass, and draw fouls like Mike then no contest Brandon is the winner. But I suffered watching him all of last season, he just didn't do it. He is maddening cause he will on a rare occasion. It comes out of nowhere and you're saying to yourself, "by God I think he's got." But then after he'd miss the free throw for his And 1 opportunity, right back to the baseline 3 he would stand.
    Maybe you should be thinking about how Rush might play with our current team and system rather than what you saw last year. Last year we didn't have a starting point guard and weren't focusing on Hibbert. Much of the discussion last year was about the awful "going small" nonsense O'Brien was obsessed with. The revisions of our team and style should greatly benefit Rush's skills, minimizing his weaknesses and maximizing his strengths.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I haven't read all of these posts, but I will give my opinion anyway. I think Dunlleavy should start until Rush proves he is motivated and ready to play. I could see a changed Rush come and with a chip on his shoulder and play like we always wanted him too, or he could come out and play like he did the last 2 year and be very timid. either way it is a wait and see. I really want to see the Rush we thought we were going to have last year after he finished strong at the end of his rookie year.

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  9. #131
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    If Rush was consistent with his effort I don't think anyone would deny he would be a better player for the TEAM success due to his defensive ability. Unfortunately we are not
    sure we can depend on Rush long term. He is going to have to prove himself. Until
    then Dunleavy starts. For the Dunleavy fans let me ask you a question, do you believe he is the long term answer at shooting guard? I believe Dun is a good guy to have on the team
    but not as a starter and not at his cost. With a cheaper contract and coming off the bench
    I could see that.
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  10. #132

    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Midcoasted View Post
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    I'm sure the stats would have said the same thing about Murphy last year. Though I think Dunleavy is light years ahead of Murphy in overall talent. Dunleavy is having a great year. Rush is the only player on our team capable of keeping the quicker SGs in front of him. No stat is going to change that.

    It's been an obvious weakness of ours. George is a rookie, and Granger has never had the lateral quickness to D up the faster SGs. Granger is better suited gaurding SFs while Rush is hands down the best wing defender on our team. He keeps everyone in front of him. Collison is good at gaurding PGs.

    I just think we have no choice but to play Rush. Maybe him and Dunleavy and George split a fair amount of minutes at SG and keep Granger healthy and fresh for 82 games and hopefully more.
    The other thing to keep in mind is that the anti-Dun folks are singling out his one on one defense. The pro-Duns are singling out his team defense. We need a mix bag to succeed on this team. If we only play man on man defense then the team if well coached will go to a motion based half court offense and take advantage of bad match ups or run of screens. If this happens we need to be able to switch to more of a team defense philosophy and to be honest our team is TERRIBLE at team defense.
    JOB is a silly man

  11. #133
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I agree that we need to keep Dunleavy starting. I like Rush at times but he is the definition of inconsistancly and it drives me nuts. Sometimes I think he will be a great contributor and other times he looks as bad as Solo out there. Dunleavy has done a pretty good job so far in my opinion.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Easy there killer.

    Yes, over the course of the three games, he has obviously been the worst of all the players getting big minutes. I'm not counting Solomon or Posey in this group.

    Your entire argument is based off one game where he got numerous rebounds of the Troy Murphy variety and shot a woeful 1-7 from three, with his only make coming at the end as we were running clock.

    If Mike can't shoot, he can't play.
    Easy there killer????????

    Disagreed.
    Totally.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    http://www.indystar.com/article/20101103/SPORTS04/11030332/Offensive-versatility-helps-Pacers-Danny-Granger?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports


    Offensive Versatility Helps Granger


    Scoring has rarely been a problem for Indiana Pacers forward Danny Granger."


    It has been even easier for him this season because he's shooting a higher percentage from the field.>>
    Granger, who is averaging 27 points a game, has shot at least 50 percent from the field in each of this season's three games.


    He accomplished that feat only once last season, during a three-game stretch in January.
    Granger, who leads the Pacers into Philadelphia tonight, is shooting 51.7 percent (30-of-58) percent from the field this season. He came into the season as a career 44.6 percent shooter.


    "I'm trying not to take as many challenged shots as in the past," he said. "I'm trying to mix my jumpers and layups. I'm more efficient from the field when I mix the two of them up. It has worked so far, so I'll continue to play that way."

    Granger's best shooting stretch as a pro came during 2008-09 when he shot at least 50 percent from the field in six straight games.


    He has averaged at least 19 points in each of the past three seasons, but he has been known to settle for contested jump shots, especially 3-pointers. The preference is for him to attack the basket more often. Granger is averaging less than five free throw attempts a game. Coaches would like to see that number double.


    "When my jump shot is falling, teams are really getting under my chin, so I have to be able to get to the basket to get them off me some," Granger said. "Teams have to respect me when I have both those things going."


    New point guard Darren Collison is learning where Granger likes to catch the ball prepared to shoot.


    "It takes time to understand where a guy wants the ball and where they like to shoot and how they play," Collison said. "But I think we're getting there faster than I thought it would happen."


    Opponents can't focus on Granger as much as last season because he's getting more scoring help.
    Center Roy Hibbert is starting to draw double teams in the post.>>


    Collison can hit jump shots and get to the basket. Mike Dunleavy is healthy and has shown in the past that he can produce 20-point games.


    Granger has also made more of an effort to move without the ball.


    "He's playing with guys he's comfortable with," coach Jim O'Brien said. "Teams were able to zone up on Danny and get under his chin in the past. . . . He's getting shots that are uncontested shots and we're able to space the court better now than last season. That makes a scorer like Danny a more effective scorer."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The above is the main article about the Pacers from this morning's (03Nov2010) Star.


    I’ve highlighted the last portion of the article that speaks very well regarding Granger’s play this season. Now there are a lot of changed dynamics in our starting lineup. For example, Hibbert is a much better player and often commands double teams as the opposition attempts to control his offensive moves and distract him from his better abilities to pass the ball. Obviously, we have a new PG that approaches the game differently than our PGs of last season.

    But the article indicates that Granger is making more of an effort to move without the ball and that he is getting a lot more uncontested shots this season than last season due to better spacing that we have been able to achieve this season.


    I really believe that this statement supports what is being said about Dunleavy’s influence on the game being played by our starters. It has more motion and consequently, results in better quality of shots, specifically for Danny.
    Last edited by beast23; 11-03-2010 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    that is why i want to see Rush play with the starters so many things have got better from last yr want to see how he does.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Give us some stats supporting your argument then.
    You want a statistic? Here's one for you.

    105.1 points per game. That's how many points the Pacers averaged per game when Mike was on the bench during the 08-09 season.

    Are we going to argue that, that roster is more offensively talented?



    Let's actually live in reality here and agree that the Pacers can, and always will be able to score a ton of points with or without Mike. Let's not pretend like Mike is some missing lynch pin that makes the world revolve.


    Mike isn't, and never has been, a key ingrident to Pacer offensive success.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    WTF is deal with all the smiley faces?

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    I really believe that this statement supports what is being said about Dunleavy’s influence on the game being played by our starters. It has more motion and consequently, results in better quality of shots, specifically for Danny.
    And I really believe that the above statement proves there is alien life on Mars. My statement is just as valid as yours. IT say's nothing about how the floor is being spaced. I can come to a conclusion saying that the development of Roy as a legitimate offensive threat which needs the attention of all defenders as the reason why the floor needs spaced, and I bet in another thread you would agree with me.

    You can't pick and choose quotes that MIGHT have some correlation and tout it as proof for your argument. Sorry, not gonna fly.



    This whole argument is pretty much equal to the one we had a couple of years ago about Roy and Rasho. No, I'm not saying Rush will grow like Roy did, I'm saying Jim thought playing Rasho was a good idea, and continually did so, because Rasho was so important to the overall offense of the Pacers, and it caused a player who was on a one year rental to get PT over a player that will be part of the Pacer future.

    Mike Dunleavy is gone after this year. He either will be traded or signed by another team. Either way, he will no longer be a Pacer. I don't care if he gets better, to be honest.

    Let's center this argument around what will benefit the Pacers more, which is what the discussion should be.
    Last edited by Since86; 11-03-2010 at 11:51 AM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Good thing for him that he was 6-13 over all huh?
    Look beyond the box scores. He got his first 13 points without making a single field goal that wasn't a layup. He then made his lone jump shot of the night with just seconds left as we were running the clock down with a big lead.

    His 16 points break down like this:

    3 layups on assists from Roy Hibbert

    1 layup on an assist from TJ Ford

    1 tip in off Josh McRoberts missed free throw

    1 meaningless 3-pointer with seconds left as we were running clock

    3-3 free throws

    So yeah I'd say he had a horrible shooting night. He was 1-8 on non-layups. Brandon Rush can easily duplicate those kinds of numbers. There is no question that he moves well without the ball, and his cutting was a major component in getting those layups, but with his defense, it isn't enough to justify him as a better option than either Rush or George.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And I really believe that the above statement proves there is alien life on Mars. My statement is just as valid as yours.


    This whole argument is pretty much equal to the one we had a couple of years ago about Roy and Rasho. No, I'm not saying Rush will grow like Roy did, I'm saying Jim thought playing Rasho was a good idea, and continually did so, because Rasho was so important to the overall offense of the Pacers, and it caused a player who was on a one year rental to get PT over a player that will be part of the Pacer future.

    Mike Dunleavy is gone after this year. He either will be traded or signed by another team. Either way, he will no longer be a Pacer. I don't care if he gets better, to be honest.

    Let's center this argument around what will benefit the Pacers more, which is what the discussion should be.
    ya mike is most likely gonna be a member of the heat next season. We need to delvlope the young guys who are core guys.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    Easy there killer????????

    Disagreed.
    Totally.
    You suggested that I (among others) am "just pretty bad at rating the real value of players when they aren't air walking dunkers."

    First of all, that's unnecessarily insulting. Second of all, my analysis and critique of Dunleavy has never once touched on his lack of dunking ability. It has had everything to do with his defensive deficiencies being too severe to make up for what he adds to the offense, especially when we have much better options waiting in the wings.

    Pun intended.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    You suggested that I (among others) am "just pretty bad at rating the real value of players when they aren't air walking dunkers."

    First of all, that's unnecessarily insulting. Second of all, my analysis and critique of Dunleavy has never once touched on his lack of dunking ability. It has had everything to do with his defensive deficiencies being too severe to make up for what he adds to the offense, especially when we have much better options waiting in the wings.Pun intended.
    THATS THE BOTTOM LINE lol

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I don't want to develop Rush for the sake of developing Rush. I think Rush's strengths are better suited for the first squad than Mike's.

    Offense isn't, and never has been, a real problem for the Pacers. They will continue to score a bunch of points, and a big reason for that is just the volume of shots they put up. I want efficient shooters.

    What is going to make or break the Pacer season is defense. And Brandon is the better defensive player, hands down.

    We don't need Mike to score. They will do it without him. But in order to be a good team, they need to be able to defend the basketball, and it's harder to do with Mike on the floor.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    You suggested that I (among others) am "just pretty bad at rating the real value of players when they aren't air walking dunkers."
    And yet the last two pages have comments about how uncivil, "us guys are." That's the second time that we, our side, has been told that we just don't understand basketball.


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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And yet the last two pages have comments about how uncivil, "us guys are." That's the second time that we, our side, has been told that we just don't understand basketball.

    ya it is crazy defense wins championships look at the last 5 yrs and tell me one team that wasnt good at defense . I just dont get this i guess idk basketball LOL.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Look beyond the box scores. He got his first 13 points without making a single field goal that wasn't a layup. He then made his lone jump shot of the night with just seconds left as we were running the clock down with a big lead.

    His 16 points break down like this:

    3 layups on assists from Roy Hibbert

    1 layup on an assist from TJ Ford

    1 tip in off Josh McRoberts missed free throw

    1 meaningless 3-pointer with seconds left as we were running clock

    3-3 free throws

    So yeah I'd say he had a horrible shooting night. He was 1-8 on non-layups. Brandon Rush can easily duplicate those kinds of numbers. There is no question that he moves well without the ball, and his cutting was a major component in getting those layups, but with his defense, it isn't enough to justify him as a better option than either Rush or George.


    So, wait, now we only judge a player by how many scores he got of whatever kind you need to define in order to make them look bad?

    I have no idea how breaking his scoring down this way makes him look bad. Weren't we complaining that the Pacers settle too much for outside jumpers? Now we're taking a player who was driving to the basket and saying bad things because he didn't score when taking outside jumpers. How does this make sense?
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Let's center this argument around what will benefit the Pacers more, which is what the discussion should be.
    OK, fair enough. Right now my biggest concern is that this current Pacers team win as many games as possible and I firmly believe that Mike Dunleavy will help this current Pacers team win more games than Rush will.

    OK, if you want me to address long-term (2 or 3 years from now) I expect Paul George to be much, much, much better than Rush anyway and Rush likely will not be on the team. I'm not saying Dunleavy will either, but I think Rush and Mike have an equal chance of being on the Pacers in two or three seasons - chances being maybe 10-15%. If by chance Rush is still on the team (remember he has almost been traded twice, suspended by the NBA once, tested positive for druge use three times), but if he is still on the team he'll be a backup shooting guard, who might be in the regular 9 man rotation.

    OK, so for sake of argument, play along here for a minute. The above two paragraps is what I firmly believe as of November 3, 2010. Why should anyone who believes what I believe want Rush to play now. if you want to play the better player now, pl;ay Mike. if you are thinking future, then play George. Why play Rush as I see him as a short term player anyway

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So, wait, now we only judge a player by how many scores he got of whatever kind you need to define in order to make them look bad?

    I have no idea how breaking his scoring down this way makes him look bad. Weren't we complaining that the Pacers settle too much for outside jumpers? Now we're taking a player who was driving to the basket and saying bad things because he didn't score when taking outside jumpers. How does this make sense?
    This was in reference to shooting percentage. The point was Dun didn't shoot well that game, as he went 1-7 on jumpshots. The 1 being at the end of the game when it didn't matter.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So, wait, now we only judge a player by how many scores he got of whatever kind you need to define in order to make them look bad?

    I have no idea how breaking his scoring down this way makes him look bad. Weren't we complaining that the Pacers settle too much for outside jumpers? Now we're taking a player who was driving to the basket and saying bad things because he didn't score when taking outside jumpers. How does this make sense?
    I was not judging Mike Dunleavy's play in that breakdown. I wasn't trying to make him look bad.

    I said if he can't shoot he can't play, which I firmly believe. Then Will Galen refuted my statement by saying he shot 6-13 from the field. But he only hit 1-8 shots that weren't layups, so I think that qualifies as poor shooting, which is important from a shooting guard who is a defensive liability.

    Again, not saying he had a bad offensive game. He didn't. Just saying he had a horrible shooting night, which I maintain to be accurate.

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