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Thread: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

  1. #76
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyPacer View Post
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    I'm not getting why we need Dunleavy for more scoring over what Rush gives us. What about watching Pacers games has led some of you to conclude that the defense is solid and we just need extra scoring? I'm seeing things very differently than some of you.


    Why, oh why cannot I convey this point. Those of us who want Dunleavy out there with the starting unit do NOT want him because of HIS individual scoring ability.

    It is because of how he plays in the offense. His teammates score more when he is in because of his constant and timely movements.

    Example: DC has the ball up top. JMac is by the left side of the FT line. Mike Dunleavy at the elbow 3. Mike cuts to the paint infront of JMac. JMacs defender steps away to his right to cut off the slashing Dunleavy. Dunleavy's defender does not switch to JMac. JMac rolls to basket, DC lobs, JMac dunk.

    That example is to show what I mean by Mike Dunleavy opening up opportunities for his teammates to score. Rush standing in usual corner like a statue creates nothing.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Rush doesn't attack the basket at a high rate or draw a lot of fouls, but I think some people really underrate his overall offensive contributions. He has decent awareness, hes a decent facilitator, makes good post entry passes. He's a better pure shooter than Dunleavy (at least behind the arc), hes obviously a better defender.

    He is not quite as good of a facilitator or team defender as Mike, but he is still decent in both areas. Meanwhile, Dunleavy is a poor one on one defender and this upgrade is quite a bit more significant with Rush on the floor. This allows Rush to take the tougher defensive assignment INSTEAD of Granger, allowing Danny to save more energy for scoring. Which is what you want really. He also has the superior athleticism which allows him to recover better when there are defensive break downs.

    I'm also not ready to declare a guy who is just about to enter his third year a finished product. He certainly has room to improve offensively, but even right now he is a pretty useful role player with some well defined skills.

    I think Rush has plenty enough offense to be your 4th or 5th option and I think the defense he brings is just more useful to the starting lineup. Its not like Mike's passing is so essential we have a lot of guys that can pass.... including Rush
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave View Post
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    Why, oh why cannot I convey this point. Those of us who want Dunleavy out there with the starting unit do NOT want him because of HIS individual scoring ability.

    It is because of how he plays in the offense. His teammates score more when he is in because of his constant and timely movements.

    Example: DC has the ball up top. JMac is by the left side of the FT line. Mike Dunleavy at the elbow 3. Mike cuts to the paint infront of JMac. JMacs defender steps away to his right to cut off the slashing Dunleavy. Dunleavy's defender does not switch to JMac. JMac rolls to basket, DC lobs, JMac dunk.

    That example is to show what I mean by Mike Dunleavy opening up opportunities for his teammates to score. Rush standing in usual corner like a statue creates nothing.
    I don't know If I'm buying that this is so essential. We have plenty of guys that can create offense. We play through the post a lot with Hibbert creating a lot of offense. Collison can create for people. Granger can create his own shot.

    Is the theory here that our entire offense is going to stall without Mike Dunleavy on the floor? I just don't know if I buy that idea. Sure Mike is a good facilitator and a good cutter off the ball but hes hardly a make or break player.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 11-02-2010 at 08:27 PM.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I've learned not to debate on here anymore b/c a handful of people are stuck on their opinions which is perfectly fine, and why it's a debate.

    I just get frustrated when people completely ignore any fact that you provided in order to stick to their opinion. I understand you're agreeing with yourself, but at least be respectful and acknowledge the other side's opinion. Some on here are like the kid that just covers his ears and goes "la la la la" when anyone else is trying to prove their point or help someone see their side of the story

    I'll never forget some of the arguments I had on here defending the Pacers drafting Hansbrough. I actually sit back and smile at some of those folks giving him praise now. It's all good.

    I agree with the pro Dunleavy crew. He's not going to shoot this bad all year. I agree we need Rush and his defense as well.

    4 man rotation of Granger, Dunleavy, Rush, George should be just fine. Just go with Granger and whoever is playing the best

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I don't know If I'm buying that this is so essential. We have plenty of guys that can create offense. We play through the post a lot with Hibbert creating a lot of offense. Collison can create for people. Granger can create his own shot.

    Is the theory here that our entire offense is going to stall without Mike Dunleavy on the floor? I just don't know if I buy that idea. Sure Mike is a good facilitator and a good cutter off the ball but hes hardly a make or break player.
    When Mike was out our offense was generated on fast break opportunities. When we slow down to half court it did run into problems because Granger stood at the three point line. Ford would drive and throw up a jumper or they would just throw the ball to hibbert and he would have to generate offense on his own. It is critical to have movement in the offense and that is what Mike has proven he brings. He is the best when the ball does not even touch his hands.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by jhondog28 View Post
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    When Mike was out our offense was generated on fast break opportunities. When we slow down to half court it did run into problems because Granger stood at the three point line. Ford would drive and throw up a jumper or they would just throw the ball to hibbert and he would have to generate offense on his own. It is critical to have movement in the offense and that is what Mike has proven he brings. He is the best when the ball does not even touch his hands.
    I'm just wondering if there is some sort of statistical proof that our offense stalls when Mike's not on the floor. I haven't really noticed it. Josh also does some of the things Mike does, and I have a hard time believing that removing one player from the lineup automatically causes the rest of the team to forget how to execute the offense.

    At this point in time I think having a player next to Granger who can take the tougher defensive assignments will be more beneficial. I feel like Dunleavy's skill set will be more useful in the second unit where offense is going to be harder to come by.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I think Dunleavy has the Travis Diener effect, I remember when Diener ran the offense and everything looked good, his only issue as Dunleavy is that he couldn't play D.

    I get the point that some people bring about him making the offense look prettier, he makes nice passes and makes people look good, that's all they see, like I said before I don't think we need him, he is just not that good and either way we still have guys that are good ball facilitators.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I'm just wondering if there is some sort of statistical proof that our offense stalls when Mike's not on the floor. I haven't really noticed it. Josh also does some of the things Mike does, and I have a hard time believing that removing one player from the lineup automatically causes the rest of the team to forget how to execute the offense.

    At this point in time I think having a player next to Granger who can take the tougher defensive assignments will be more beneficial. I feel like Dunleavy's skill set will be more useful in the second unit where offense is going to be harder to come by.
    In all honesty I am speaking from what I witness when I watched games he was in and when he was not in. It is not a bad offense when he is out... just different. What I was talking about was when he was out for the year. When he was out with injury its not like our defense was gangbusters or our offense was a ton better. But you could tell that no one was running off picks and the ball did not move well.

    I honestly think the best description I ever heard about Mike was what one announcer said on a TV broadcast when he was in college. I believe he said, "The thing about Dunleavy is that he seems to always be the one that initiates the score. He always makes the pass that leads to the assist or move to the basket. "
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think Dunleavy has the Travis Diener effect, I remember when Diener ran the offense and everything looked good, his only issue as Dunleavy is that he couldn't play D.

    I get the point that some people bring about him making the offense look prettier, he makes nice passes and makes people look good, that's all they see, like I said before I don't think we need him, he is just not that good and either way we still have guys that are good ball facilitators.

    ya we already have 3 really good facliltators in jmac DC and ROY and Danny can create on his own. PG24 and Brush can both drive and dish or score they just need to do it more. Last game Paul did an ok job of this.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    This has been an interesting debate. I think there is a clear winner, but I am biased

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    This has been an interesting debate. I think there is a clear winner, but I am biased
    We are all on one side of the fence or another it seems. Which side is the "winner" in your eyes?

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    We are all on one side of the fence or another it seems. Which side is the "winner" in your eyes?
    I cannot tell you that

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    What is your logical response to his 16pts and 9 rebounds in the last win?
    Oh and his +22 rating was 2nd on the team. By a bunch over #3.
    Yet he "pretty obviously been the worst of all the players", hmmmmmmm
    Or maybe some guys are just pretty bad at rating the real value of players when they aren't air walking dunkers.
    Easy there killer.

    Yes, over the course of the three games, he has obviously been the worst of all the players getting big minutes. I'm not counting Solomon or Posey in this group.

    Your entire argument is based off one game where he got numerous rebounds of the Troy Murphy variety and shot a woeful 1-7 from three, with his only make coming at the end as we were running clock.

    If Mike can't shoot, he can't play.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I cannot tell you that
    I think I know the answer

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Easy there killer.

    Yes, over the course of the three games, he has obviously been the worst of all the players getting big minutes. I'm not counting Solomon or Posey in this group.

    Your entire argument is based off one game where he got numerous rebounds of the Troy Murphy variety and shot a woeful 1-7 from three, with his only make coming at the end as we were running clock.

    If Mike can't shoot, he can't play.
    I just bolded the last part because I totally disagree with this. We have Collison and Granger and Hibbert....those are our scorers. Mike's job in the starters role is not to score it is to provide movement in the offense that should open things up for Hibbert on the inside and Granger on the wing.

    And that example you are using for the worst player that plays big minutes is just a way to finger point at Dun. I could also say that Hibbert is our worst player over 7 feet tall just to put a negative spin on it
    JOB is a silly man

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I'm just wondering if there is some sort of statistical proof that our offense stalls when Mike's not on the floor. I haven't really noticed it. Josh also does some of the things Mike does, and I have a hard time believing that removing one player from the lineup automatically causes the rest of the team to forget how to execute the offense.

    At this point in time I think having a player next to Granger who can take the tougher defensive assignments will be more beneficial. I feel like Dunleavy's skill set will be more useful in the second unit where offense is going to be harder to come by.
    In 105 minutes with Dunleavy on the court, the Pacers have scored 252 points in 214 possessions, or 117.8 per 100. In the 39 minutes he's been off the floor, the Pacers have scored 60 points in 74 possessions or 81.1 per 100.

    On the court - Pacers allowed 231 points in 218 possessions, or 106.0 per 100.

    Off the court - Pacers allowed 78 points in 71 possessions, or 109.9 per 100.

    http://basketballvalue.com/player.ph...010-2011&id=92

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    In 105 minutes with Dunleavy on the court, the Pacers have scored 252 points in 214 possessions, or 117.8 per 100. In the 39 minutes he's been off the floor, the Pacers have scored 60 points in 74 possessions or 81.1 per 100.

    On the court - Pacers allowed 231 points in 218 possessions, or 106.0 per 100.

    Off the court - Pacers allowed 78 points in 71 possessions, or 109.9 per 100.

    http://basketballvalue.com/player.ph...010-2011&id=92
    but mike plays with the starters so that doesnt mean much. Of course the offense is good playing with DG33 DC ROY and josh. what is brandons playing with the starters???

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    In 105 minutes with Dunleavy on the court, the Pacers have scored 252 points in 214 possessions, or 117.8 per 100. In the 39 minutes he's been off the floor, the Pacers have scored 60 points in 74 possessions or 81.1 per 100.

    On the court - Pacers allowed 231 points in 218 possessions, or 106.0 per 100.

    Off the court - Pacers allowed 78 points in 71 possessions, or 109.9 per 100.

    http://basketballvalue.com/player.ph...010-2011&id=92
    Is this taking into account him been on the floor at the same time with Danny,Roy and Collison or just him? and the off the floor is when Posey,TJ and Solomon are in? how is this accurate?

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by jhondog28 View Post
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    I just bolded the last part because I totally disagree with this. We have Collison and Granger and Hibbert....those are our scorers. Mike's job in the starters role is not to score it is to provide movement in the offense that should open things up for Hibbert on the inside and Granger on the wing.

    And that example you are using for the worst player that plays big minutes is just a way to finger point at Dun. I could also say that Hibbert is our worst player over 7 feet tall just to put a negative spin on it
    I agree that the job of the shooting guard on this team is not to score. It shouldn't be with the other options we have in the starting unit. Which is why Rush and George are both clearly better options.

    The only thing that could make Dunleavy a better option would be if he was obviously a better scorer than Rush or George, which when he can't shoot, he definitely isn't. Rush is a better three-point shooter so having him spot up to collect from the kick outs and better ball movement that we have so far this season makes sense. George has the capability to become a more than adequate three-point threat as well, and with his athleticism should be able to get the rim.

    But back to the heart of the issue. Defense matters, and Dunleavy is a horrid defender no matter how many times his apologists pull out the "he's a good team defender," myth.

    How is saying he was the worst of the players playing major minutes a way to finger point at him?

    Collison, Ford, George, Granger, McRoberts, Hansbrough, Hibbert -- Can you honestly suggest that he has been better so far than any of those players? George is the only one even questionable, and the fact that he's a rookie gives him much more leeway than an old Dunleavy.

    Right now, there is definitely a place for Dunleavy in the rotation, but when Rush is available, there shouldn't be.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    I agree that the job of the shooting guard on this team is not to score. It shouldn't be with the other options we have in the starting unit. Which is why Rush and George are both clearly better options.

    The only thing that could make Dunleavy a better option would be if he was obviously a better scorer than Rush or George, which when he can't shoot, he definitely isn't. Rush is a better three-point shooter so having him spot up to collect from the kick outs and better ball movement that we have so far this season makes sense. George has the capability to become a more than adequate three-point threat as well, and with his athleticism should be able to get the rim.

    But back to the heart of the issue. Defense matters, and Dunleavy is a horrid defender no matter how many times his apologists pull out the "he's a good team defender," myth.

    How is saying he was the worst of the players playing major minutes a way to finger point at him?

    Collison, Ford, George, Granger, McRoberts, Hansbrough, Hibbert -- Can you honestly suggest that he has been better so far than any of those players? George is the only one even questionable, and the fact that he's a rookie gives him much more leeway than an old Dunleavy.

    Right now, there is definitely a place for Dunleavy in the rotation, but when Rush is available, there shouldn't be.
    i agree

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    In 105 minutes with Dunleavy on the court, the Pacers have scored 252 points in 214 possessions, or 117.8 per 100. In the 39 minutes he's been off the floor, the Pacers have scored 60 points in 74 possessions or 81.1 per 100.

    On the court - Pacers allowed 231 points in 218 possessions, or 106.0 per 100.

    Off the court - Pacers allowed 78 points in 71 possessions, or 109.9 per 100.

    http://basketballvalue.com/player.ph...010-2011&id=92
    Once again you come in and end the debate.

    although I suppose it would be fair to analyze who else was on the floor with Mike. Being there with Granger and hibbert can make a huge difference

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Once again you come in and end the debate
    How is that?

    He is starting with Danny,Roy,Collison and Mcbob and they won 2 games out of 3.

    I don't need numbers to know that the scoring when down when Danny, Roy and Collison were out(we been talking about the Posey,TJ and Solo combo)
    Last edited by vnzla81; 11-02-2010 at 10:04 PM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Once again you come in and end the debate
    how does he end it mike plays with the starters not posey and solo that info isnt valid


    until we see Brush play with starters or we see PG24 play with them as the starting 2

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    but mike plays with the starters so that doesnt mean much. Of course the offense is good playing with DG33 DC ROY and josh. what is brandons playing with the starters???
    This makes it difficult to determine because Mike generally plays with the starters. Its no secret that our first team has performed better than our second team.

    So do the starters score better because of mike? Or because they have superior offensive players?

    I'm not one who is saying Mike is a worthless player, but I think a lot of the things people like about what Mike brings to the table would actually be more beneficial to the second unit... who have actually struggled to score. Plenty of firepower already with the starters... which also includes guys who can pass (Hibbert/Collison/Josh) and move without the ball (Josh).
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    This makes it difficult to determine because Mike generally plays with the starters. Its no secret that our first team has performed better than our second team.

    I'm not one who is saying Mike is a worthless player, but I think a lot of the things people like about what Mike brings to the table would actually be more beneficial to the second unit... who have actually struggled to score. Plenty of firepower already with the starters... which also includes guys who can pass (Hibbert/Collison/Josh) and move without the ball (Josh).
    AGREE he would be perfect as backup 3 who is the primary scorer along side TYLER and paul

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