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I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

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  • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Originally posted by imawhat View Post
    Also, two seasons ago, Brandon did a great job with Hibbert off the give & go. We didn't see it last year because we didn't initiate offense through Hibbert, but I think people will be surprised with Brandon in the starting lineup. He'll get 2-3 baskets/game off of cuts, which will also like raise his FT attempts. I hope he gets the chance.
    You know I kinda forgot about this but I remember what you are talking about. Rush and Hibbert played off each other really well in their rookie year. Brandon may surprise some of his detractors if he gets the chance. Hes got more BBall IQ than hes getting credit for.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

    - ilive4sports

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    • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

      Originally posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
      I keep seeing a lot of "you guys" getting thrown around but nobody is really making an effort to refute my arguments. I appreciate Count digging up some stats on the subject but they don't really prove anything except that we are (not surprisingly) better with the starters playing than the backups.
      First off, my apologies for abandoning this debate for some time. Ironically I had to leave to play in my basketball league night games. Then once I returned home I was required to spend time with my wife, even though I tried to convince her that there were so many people who were "wrong" on the internet.

      Next, I will say that "you guys" is being used by those attempting to maintain civility rather than calling out individuals. Certain posters have decided to post their elementary thoughts in a brash way and have shown not to be able to voice their thoughts in an arena of ideas. Its both sad and embarrassing for them. I would like to thank you for providing sound/rational counter points based in reason and opinion.

      Let it never be said that I don't appreciate an intelligent opposing view point. Nevertheless, I've read all of your posts and you seem to agree about certain aspects but believe that Dunleavy's increased offensive productivity would be better suited in the second unit.

      I see where you're coming from, but I think we would be asking Mike to play a much different style than he is playing in the starting unit. Placed in that 2nd lineup, Mike would be looked upon as perhaps the first scoring option. Therefore he would need to look for his own shot often. IMO, this is not when he is at his best. Mike is not particularly gifted at creating his own shot. However, a player like Hansbrough who is used to putting up a high volume of shots IS better suited in the 2nd unit. Allowing Josh, like Mike, to play complimentary roles to the other weapons in the 1st unit. Ideally the 2nd unit would have a similar structure to the starters, a combination of score first players and complimentary players.

      When he is with the starters, individual scoring is not necessarily a requirement. Mike helps open things up for the others. Now if Brandon would move, pass, and draw fouls like Mike then no contest Brandon is the winner. But I suffered watching him all of last season, he just didn't do it. He is maddening cause he will on a rare occasion. It comes out of nowhere and you're saying to yourself, "by God I think he's got." But then after he'd miss the free throw for his And 1 opportunity, right back to the baseline 3 he would stand.
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      • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

        Originally posted by count55 View Post
        In 105 minutes with Dunleavy on the court, the Pacers have scored 252 points in 214 possessions, or 117.8 per 100. In the 39 minutes he's been off the floor, the Pacers have scored 60 points in 74 possessions or 81.1 per 100.

        On the court - Pacers allowed 231 points in 218 possessions, or 106.0 per 100.

        Off the court - Pacers allowed 78 points in 71 possessions, or 109.9 per 100.

        http://basketballvalue.com/player.ph...010-2011&id=92
        Wow. I'm not a huge "stats" guy. And I by no means think this is the end all be all for proof validating my beliefs. Still this is pretty impressive. And while of course Mike has been with the starters he has played some extended periods with the backups. Normally Danny is the first to come out, replaced by George. Mike and PG finish out the first and start the 2nd. Then Danny returns for Mike at about the 10 to 9 minute mark in the 2nd.
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        • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

          Wow, long debate.

          First I want to start out with saying that I like Dun, and I like what he brings to the team. I'd like to keep him if he wanted to be a fourth wing and sign a cheap deal. (Just like I'd like to keep Dahntay so long as he's cool with not playing :P) But ideally, Brandon should start, imo. However, I've complained enough on here about players not earning their minutes, so Brandon needs to beat Dun out for the starters job. (because we all know, that Brandon is capable of playing worse.) And also, if the team continues to play well, I do think it's better to keep the chemistry the same..instead of mixing things up for no reason. Stability is important on a basketball team.

          First, Dun's a poor defender. He is. He knows what he's supposed to do in terms of team defense, and he takes charges, but a majority of the time he isn't that effective there either. (as opposed to George, who just seems to have no clue in what he's supposed to do )

          This is exemplified even more, with the fact that Collison is the worst defender out of the three point guards. He has the capabilities of being a good defender and needs to be taught (much like George, because both are willing) but right now, we have the worst PG/SG combo, in terms of defense, on the team.

          Next, we don't need Dun's offense in the starting lineup and we do need it off the bench.

          This is two fold. One, I've read that JOB (not a criticism) wants to make sure Dun gets his shots in the game. However, Dun is less effective at scoring the basketball than Darren, Hibbert, and Granger. It will continue to be tough to give Dun his shots, and quite frankly, I don't really want him to get them if Darren, Roy, or Danny can score instead.

          He brings passing, cutting, and awareness to the starting lineup, but the rest of the starters do as well. Brandon brings defense, which is something..that isn't brought as much to the starting lineup. (Although, it is better than last season.)

          However, the bench, desperatly needs scoring. Dun would be the first option off the bench.

          But even more necessary, is the fact that the bench needs better ball movement and awareness. TJ stalls the offense, having Dun there to counteract that would be a good thing. (And when AJ plays, Dun and Price seem to play well together, which..it's good to have chemistry on the bench) Tyler, bless him (and I adore Tyler), is also a bit of a black hole. The bench rotation isn't currently filled with many (or any) good passers. Dun would help immensly.

          Having a good bench rotation, when the Pacers are playing at such a fast pace, is important, and adding Dun to the bench, benifits the bench much more than adding Brandon to it.

          And finally, I believe Dun has an endurance issues.
          I noticed last game that Dun was spending a lot of his energy on defense, and I think it's possible that the energy spent caused him to miss a lot of his shots. He also is "notoriously bad" in the fourth quarter. This is just somethig I've observed, I don't have anything statistically to back it up.

          So I think letting him play off the bench, in shorter time, would help him be more effective, imo. I think it would also allow him to be a better defender, as he could "go all out" and not have to worry about getting tired.

          So basically, I think it'd be better for the team if Brandon earned the starting spot. And I think it would actually be better for Dun if he was playing from the bench.

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          • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

            I just wanna say I'm glad to see Diamond Dave posting more these days!
            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

            ------

            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

            -John Wooden

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            • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

              Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
              Once again you come in and end the debate.

              although I suppose it would be fair to analyze who else was on the floor with Mike. Being there with Granger and hibbert can make a huge difference
              I'm sure the stats would have said the same thing about Murphy last year. Though I think Dunleavy is light years ahead of Murphy in overall talent. Dunleavy is having a great year. Rush is the only player on our team capable of keeping the quicker SGs in front of him. No stat is going to change that.

              It's been an obvious weakness of ours. George is a rookie, and Granger has never had the lateral quickness to D up the faster SGs. Granger is better suited gaurding SFs while Rush is hands down the best wing defender on our team. He keeps everyone in front of him. Collison is good at gaurding PGs.

              I just think we have no choice but to play Rush. Maybe him and Dunleavy and George split a fair amount of minutes at SG and keep Granger healthy and fresh for 82 games and hopefully more.

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              • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                Originally posted by Mackey_Rose View Post

                If Mike can't shoot, he can't play.
                Good thing for him that he was 6-13 over all huh?

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                • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                  Originally posted by Diamond Dave View Post


                  Why, oh why cannot I convey this point. Those of us who want Dunleavy out there with the starting unit do NOT want him because of HIS individual scoring ability.

                  It is because of how he plays in the offense. His teammates score more when he is in because of his constant and timely movements.

                  Example: DC has the ball up top. JMac is by the left side of the FT line. Mike Dunleavy at the elbow 3. Mike cuts to the paint infront of JMac. JMacs defender steps away to his right to cut off the slashing Dunleavy. Dunleavy's defender does not switch to JMac. JMac rolls to basket, DC lobs, JMac dunk.

                  That example is to show what I mean by Mike Dunleavy opening up opportunities for his teammates to score. Rush standing in usual corner like a statue creates nothing.
                  It doesn't matter if you are talking about his INDIVIDUAL SCORING ABILITY OR AS A FACILITATOR. My point is that we already are going to have scoring from Hibbert, Granger, and Collison. Do you really think that those guys won't be able to score without the direct intervention from Dunleavy?

                  We also haven't seen Rush in this offense that is supposed to be ran through Hibbert and controlled by a seemingly legitimate starting PG. In addition, we also do not have our "power" forward chucking up 3s on the perimeter. Those are shots perimeter players should be taking most of the time, at least if you ever want to grab an offensive rebound. Hibbert and Collison in their roles should benefit Rush more than anyone else on this team. Both will greatly minimize the need for Rush to create his own shot, which he has always struggled to do, including at Kansas. Collison himself listed Rush as one of the guys he is most eager to help improve, and it seems obvious enough to me as to why.

                  Dunleavy apologists seem to forget that there are two sides of the floor in full court basketball. Some of you seem to not be any more concerned about defense than Troy Murphy was. Rush is needed in the 1st unit for his defense and long-range shooting. Now that JOB is actually interested in using an inside presence, there is actually a very important use for "spreading the floor." "Spreading the floor" can actually be very important if you also use an inside presence. Hibbert and Rush should be able to feed off of each other and create opportunities for each others with a legitimate inside-out game, and we may actually see some offensive rebounding now that our power forwards are going to be close to the basket and get even more shots.

                  As I've said before, I do not hate Dunleavy and wouldn't mind seeing him sign a (much) lower cost contract with Indiana in the future, although he's admittedly not my first choice in that respect. But I think he's a good guy, and his offensive skills could be helpful in the 2nd unit. I just don't think it makes sense putting all of your offensively oriented players in the 1st unit. Kobe and Lebron will be in opponents' 1st units, and Rush needs to be in our 1st unit guarding them.

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                  • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                    Originally posted by Diamond Dave View Post

                    When he is with the starters, individual scoring is not necessarily a requirement. Mike helps open things up for the others. Now if Brandon would move, pass, and draw fouls like Mike then no contest Brandon is the winner. But I suffered watching him all of last season, he just didn't do it. He is maddening cause he will on a rare occasion. It comes out of nowhere and you're saying to yourself, "by God I think he's got." But then after he'd miss the free throw for his And 1 opportunity, right back to the baseline 3 he would stand.
                    Maybe you should be thinking about how Rush might play with our current team and system rather than what you saw last year. Last year we didn't have a starting point guard and weren't focusing on Hibbert. Much of the discussion last year was about the awful "going small" nonsense O'Brien was obsessed with. The revisions of our team and style should greatly benefit Rush's skills, minimizing his weaknesses and maximizing his strengths.

                    Comment


                    • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                      I haven't read all of these posts, but I will give my opinion anyway. I think Dunlleavy should start until Rush proves he is motivated and ready to play. I could see a changed Rush come and with a chip on his shoulder and play like we always wanted him too, or he could come out and play like he did the last 2 year and be very timid. either way it is a wait and see. I really want to see the Rush we thought we were going to have last year after he finished strong at the end of his rookie year.

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                      • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                        If Rush was consistent with his effort I don't think anyone would deny he would be a better player for the TEAM success due to his defensive ability. Unfortunately we are not
                        sure we can depend on Rush long term. He is going to have to prove himself. Until
                        then Dunleavy starts. For the Dunleavy fans let me ask you a question, do you believe he is the long term answer at shooting guard? I believe Dun is a good guy to have on the team
                        but not as a starter and not at his cost. With a cheaper contract and coming off the bench
                        I could see that.
                        {o,o}
                        |)__)
                        -"-"-

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                        • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                          Originally posted by Midcoasted View Post
                          I'm sure the stats would have said the same thing about Murphy last year. Though I think Dunleavy is light years ahead of Murphy in overall talent. Dunleavy is having a great year. Rush is the only player on our team capable of keeping the quicker SGs in front of him. No stat is going to change that.

                          It's been an obvious weakness of ours. George is a rookie, and Granger has never had the lateral quickness to D up the faster SGs. Granger is better suited gaurding SFs while Rush is hands down the best wing defender on our team. He keeps everyone in front of him. Collison is good at gaurding PGs.

                          I just think we have no choice but to play Rush. Maybe him and Dunleavy and George split a fair amount of minutes at SG and keep Granger healthy and fresh for 82 games and hopefully more.
                          The other thing to keep in mind is that the anti-Dun folks are singling out his one on one defense. The pro-Duns are singling out his team defense. We need a mix bag to succeed on this team. If we only play man on man defense then the team if well coached will go to a motion based half court offense and take advantage of bad match ups or run of screens. If this happens we need to be able to switch to more of a team defense philosophy and to be honest our team is TERRIBLE at team defense.
                          JOB is a silly man

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                          • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                            I agree that we need to keep Dunleavy starting. I like Rush at times but he is the definition of inconsistancly and it drives me nuts. Sometimes I think he will be a great contributor and other times he looks as bad as Solo out there. Dunleavy has done a pretty good job so far in my opinion.

                            Comment


                            • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                              Originally posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
                              Easy there killer.

                              Yes, over the course of the three games, he has obviously been the worst of all the players getting big minutes. I'm not counting Solomon or Posey in this group.

                              Your entire argument is based off one game where he got numerous rebounds of the Troy Murphy variety and shot a woeful 1-7 from three, with his only make coming at the end as we were running clock.

                              If Mike can't shoot, he can't play.
                              Easy there killer????????

                              Disagreed.
                              Totally.

                              Comment


                              • Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

                                http://www.indystar.com/article/20101103/SPORTS04/11030332/Offensive-versatility-helps-Pacers-Danny-Granger?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports


                                Offensive Versatility Helps Granger


                                Scoring has rarely been a problem for Indiana Pacers forward Danny Granger."


                                It has been even easier for him this season because he's shooting a higher percentage from the field.>>
                                Granger, who is averaging 27 points a game, has shot at least 50 percent from the field in each of this season's three games.


                                He accomplished that feat only once last season, during a three-game stretch in January.
                                Granger, who leads the Pacers into Philadelphia tonight, is shooting 51.7 percent (30-of-58) percent from the field this season. He came into the season as a career 44.6 percent shooter.


                                "I'm trying not to take as many challenged shots as in the past," he said. "I'm trying to mix my jumpers and layups. I'm more efficient from the field when I mix the two of them up. It has worked so far, so I'll continue to play that way."

                                Granger's best shooting stretch as a pro came during 2008-09 when he shot at least 50 percent from the field in six straight games.


                                He has averaged at least 19 points in each of the past three seasons, but he has been known to settle for contested jump shots, especially 3-pointers. The preference is for him to attack the basket more often. Granger is averaging less than five free throw attempts a game. Coaches would like to see that number double.


                                "When my jump shot is falling, teams are really getting under my chin, so I have to be able to get to the basket to get them off me some," Granger said. "Teams have to respect me when I have both those things going."


                                New point guard Darren Collison is learning where Granger likes to catch the ball prepared to shoot.


                                "It takes time to understand where a guy wants the ball and where they like to shoot and how they play," Collison said. "But I think we're getting there faster than I thought it would happen."


                                Opponents can't focus on Granger as much as last season because he's getting more scoring help.
                                Center Roy Hibbert is starting to draw double teams in the post.>>


                                Collison can hit jump shots and get to the basket. Mike Dunleavy is healthy and has shown in the past that he can produce 20-point games.


                                Granger has also made more of an effort to move without the ball.


                                "He's playing with guys he's comfortable with," coach Jim O'Brien said. "Teams were able to zone up on Danny and get under his chin in the past. . . . He's getting shots that are uncontested shots and we're able to space the court better now than last season. That makes a scorer like Danny a more effective scorer."


                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                The above is the main article about the Pacers from this morning's (03Nov2010) Star.


                                I’ve highlighted the last portion of the article that speaks very well regarding Granger’s play this season. Now there are a lot of changed dynamics in our starting lineup. For example, Hibbert is a much better player and often commands double teams as the opposition attempts to control his offensive moves and distract him from his better abilities to pass the ball. Obviously, we have a new PG that approaches the game differently than our PGs of last season.

                                But the article indicates that Granger is making more of an effort to move without the ball and that he is getting a lot more uncontested shots this season than last season due to better spacing that we have been able to achieve this season.


                                I really believe that this statement supports what is being said about Dunleavy’s influence on the game being played by our starters. It has more motion and consequently, results in better quality of shots, specifically for Danny.
                                Last edited by beast23; 11-03-2010, 12:02 PM.

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