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Thread: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

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    Default I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Seems that everyone is on a Pacer high right now. Deservedly so, including myself. However save for a couple of posters, it seems Mike Dunleavy continues to be thrown under the bus. Undeservedly so.

    In fact, I've read many posts longing for the return of Rush. This puzzles me as I have watched every game Brandon Rush has played in as a Pacer and while he has some value, IMO, he has some serious flaws that has me only looking forward to his return if he plays in a defensive special weapon role off the bench.

    I first was going reply several times in several threads explaining why, thus far, we should all be pleased with Mike. Then I decided that I actually had quite a few things to say on the subject.

    So in honor of my father I've decided to compare both players in a "Good, Bad, and Ugly" format, oh and also in honor of my father here is dancing banana

    The Good

    Mike Dunleavy is an excellent facilitator of what I call "good" basketball. Mike moves very well without the ball. Makes quick decisions with the ball either shooting, driving or passing. Often cuts and makes his defender work to keep up. He does not allow the offense to stagnate by standing still. If you watch basketball at any level, hell even play pickup bball, the teams that win are the ones that commit to defense and MOVE on offense. Pacer fans of all people should appreciate this as this was Reggie's BEST skill.

    Mike is a legit 6'9, maybe 6'10, player with the skill set of a 6'6 player. This has advantages for obvious reasons. But in addition to solid ball handling, passing and court vision. Mike uses his height to pull down very solid rebounding numbers from the SG position.

    Mike has the ability to score in many capacities. He can spot up shoot, drive, get to the line, and is probably 2nd only to Granger at shooting off a screen. Mike, save for the SA game, has proven to be quality FT shooter for his career.

    Now on to Brandon. Brandon, bar none, is THE best perimeter defender on the team. I feel 100 percent at ease with him guarding anyone in the league on an isolation play save for the few in the league that no one can stop ie Kobe, Lebron, Wade.

    Brandon has more physical tools than Mike, other than height. Brandon is stronger and faster (more laterally, not so much in a fast break situation). Brandon has shown to have mostly consistent 3 point shooting ability.

    The Bad

    Mike Dunleavy is a streaky shooter. He can always be counted on to suffer through a couple of slumps a year. And while his endurance is improved from last season, I no longer think Mike can play at the same level past about 33 min per game. After that you can really begin to tell Mike's legs are wearing down and his game overall suffers.

    Mike defense is known to be pourous. In fact, up until this season, I would have listed this in the "ugly" category. However, I have seen solid respectable individual D from him thus far and even better team D. Mike cannot, nor ever will be able too guard other teams best wing player very well.

    However, not many teams have two strong slashers. Still, and you must see Mike in person to appreciate this, he has bulked up considerably. This will help his defense. Last year you could beat Mike with speed or power. Well the older you get, and after knee operations, its harder to get faster. So it appears Mike has worked on not getting overpowered. So as long as Mike isn't responsible for guarding the other team's best wing he will be okay. And he is very knowledgable when it comes to applying double teams, and he has quick hands so he often pokes the ball away from the weakside on slashers.

    For all the moving Mike does without the ball, Brandon Rush is equal and opposite reaction. Brandon has speed and leaping ability. He just chooses not to use it on offense. He is entirely too content to park on the side behind the 3 line and wait. Many times I forget Brandon is even in the game because he can just disappear for long periods at a time.

    Rarely will you see a cutting Brandon Rush. He has yet to show any decent passing ability as when he recieves the ball behind the line, if he doesn't shoot, he just passes right back to the guy who passed it to him.

    The Ugly

    Until I see something different, I will elevate Dunleavy's defense from this category. In fact the only thing I want to talk about in this category in relationship to Mike is that I'm not so sure how great of a teammate he is. Now I'm not in the locker room so I cant speak to this a lot of authority, and I don't believe that every player needs to be Mr. Rah Rah. But I often times do notice with a sour look on his face. He is not shy about harping on others for mistakes. Obviously if a player messes up, Mike should say something. However he does not seem so quick to congradulate others when they succeed. I may be reading too much into it but I worry about Mike not fitting in with the rest of the young and seemingly enthusiastic Pacers.

    That being said, Mike has never caused problems for the team off the court like Mr. Rush. Who has never seemed real excited to be anywhere. In fact he seems very relaxed and mellow.

    Regardless, I'm not actually that concerned with the off the court stuff for Rush. I'm much more concerned about him on the court. And of all the things that displease me with Brandon its this. Last year Brandon played in 82 games, averaged 30.4 min, and shot 89 FTs!!!!! If that wasn't bad enough, he only hit 56 of them for a staggering 62 percent!

    Here is a stat for you, Tyler Hansbrough played in 29 games last year, and shot 113 FT's. 24 more attempts than Brandon!!

    Actually Brandon has played in 157 games in his career. AND HAS ONLY ATTEMPTED 155 FREE THROWS!!!!! Unacceptable. A starting wing player has got to get to the line in this league. This indicates a helluva lot of standing around. Though this may be a blessing in disguise, as when Brandon goes to the line, statistically he will miss at least one!




    I will end saying that Brandon still has a place on this team. We could have used him on Ginobli in that first game. I want to use him in the way we were supposed to use Dahntay Jones. But until he shows an interest in participating in the offense I have no further need of him.

    All in for DG33

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    We don't need Mike, he is another trading piece this year that's it.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    mike is a scrub he should sit next to posey and solo on the bench. Backup SF at best

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Brandon's defense is going to be great to have back at the position, but for a few more games I think Mike should start and we'll see how we continue to play.

    I really want Paul to start in the long run.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    We don't need Mike, he is another trading piece this year that's it.
    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    mike is a scrub he should sit next to posey and solo on the bench. Backup SF at best
    This is all you guys have to say in response to that breakdown? Why not give some details on why you don't agree with DD rather than just spouting the same worn out phrases. WHY don't we need Mike - who is it that brings the same or better in all areas? WHY is Mike just a scrub - based on DD's post that's an awful high performance level from a scrub - and who is it that shows him up?
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I do also want him to start. Mike is what I call a glue guy. He makes things work, he makes the other players better and typically you don't realize what he is doing until he is out of the game and then you wonder why the pacers aren't playing as well.

    I also want George to get more minutes than Rush. I only want Ruch to play in special defensive situations. (although I understand George is a rookie and will struggle at times, so hopsefully Rush will be ready on those occasions
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-02-2010 at 02:08 PM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I do also want him to start. Mike is what I call a glue guy. He makes things work, he makes the other players better and typically you don't realize what he is doing until he is out of the game and then you wonder why the pacers aren't playing as well.
    He is a glue guy until you are getting blowout every game and his guy is scoring 20+ points on him.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    While I like Mike, I just don't think he brings anything to the table that can't either be bettered or replaced.

    He's only averaging 11pts while shooting 40% from the field. Surely Brandon can atleast average that, this year, with better defense.


    Yes, he's a great cutter without the ball, and it leads to 2-3 layups a game, but I don't think those are unreplaceable scores.

    He's just not bringing anything special to the arena. If he was shooting around 60% while averaging 11pts, and that was because he was knocking down open shots and getting clean cuts, then okay, that's a lot better. But he's averaging those 11pts by taking 11 shots per game, and out of those 11 six per game are 3pt fg attempts. Ick.....

    Dunleavy averages 12pts per game for his entire career, and that's even with a 19pt season mixed in. The year that he was traded to Indy he averaged 14 with GSW and 11.4pts here. We shouldn't expect anymore. He's not going to bring 16pts per game, that's just not who he is, especially considering he's 3years removed from his 19pt season with major knee injury.

    As much as we complain about Rush's lack of production, he still has a very legit chance at becoming a lot better offensively. At the same time, if he merely remains the same, he's still giving pretty close production that Dunleavy brings.

    Mike just doesn't really bring a whole lot to the table. He's way more valuable as a trading piece than on-the-court production.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    why is rush so bad offensively i mean really hes played long enough to know how to shoot the ball all the time and get fouled

    dunleavy is a bad 3 point shooter and george looks like hes more better shooting 3s all the time compared to either guy

    rush better shoot better or else his *** with be out of here
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    i also believe mike should continue to start. the chemistry is there, why mess it up?

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    He is a glue guy until you are getting blowout every game and his guy is scoring 20+ points on him.
    OK, let me know when that happens, because I have not seen it yet.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    He is a glue guy until you are getting blowout every game and his guy is scoring 20+ points on him.
    LOL 1000% right manu was making mike look silly

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, let me know when that happens, because I have not seen it yet.
    rewatch the spurs game when mike goes out manu doesnt score much. But when mike was in manu lite him up.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, let me know when that happens, because I have not seen it yet.
    Well Mike is been here for three years and I have seen that happening many times, the only difference now is that we don't have Murphy anymore to blame him for the lost.

    Mike is as bad as a defender as Murphy, he used to be better but now after the surgery he got even worse(he is equal now)

    Edit: also Mike was shooting the pacers out of the game in the last three games, his missed shots are the main reason why the Sixers stay in the game.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 11-02-2010 at 02:25 PM.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    although dunleavy scored 16 points he sucked with the shooting

    i dont know what to say about him anymore

    george has been fun to watch
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    This is all you guys have to say in response to that breakdown? Why not give some details on why you don't agree with DD rather than just spouting the same worn out phrases. WHY don't we need Mike - who is it that brings the same or better in all areas? WHY is Mike just a scrub - based on DD's post that's an awful high performance level from a scrub - and who is it that shows him up?
    Yeah after those two gems filled with such intellect and substantiated counter points, they've left me with no choice but to put them on ignore so that I won't have to see them invalidate my thoughts.

    Feel free to explain this post for them BillS.
    All in for DG33

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I do also want him to start. Mike is what I call a glue guy. He makes things work, he makes the other players better and typically you don't realize what he is doing until he is out of the game and then you wonder why the pacers aren't playing as well.
    I lean towards this school of thought, as well.

    Does Mike have every quality that we would want to see out of our starting SG? As DD's summary explains very well, no. Is he the best that we currently have to start at the position? Yes, he is.

    I believe that some have such love for our younger players and such disdain for Dunleavy's present salary that they don't give Dunleavy a fair shot.

    I have no doubt that over time with ample experience that George will become a more valuable player for the Pacers. I don't know that George will ever have Dunleavy's knowledge for the game, but I suspect that he will become a very good scorer and a much better man-on-man defender than Dunleavy.

    If Rush were more aggressive offensively, no make that MUCH more aggressive offensively, he could also become a more valuable player for the Pacers than Dunleavy. Unfortunately, Rush has McKey syndrome, or as Peck would put it, Popeye syndrome... "I am what I am, and that's all that I am!" Rush is a great defensive player that is capable and willing to show his aggression defensively, but for some reason rarely completely engages on the offensive end of the floor. It's like he is afraid to "put himself out there"... perhaps he is afraid of overstepping his bounds in the pecking order or of making mistakes. All I know is that it drives me nuts... it's like he's holding back and no one is able to get him to let it out.

    With Rush's defensive abilities and perimeter shooting abilities, he could always have a place on the team as a specialist. But he could be so much more. But until he is willing to take the risk of possibly making a few oncourt mistakes, he will never come close to approaching his full potential.

    So for what it's worth, I am perfectly happy to go primarliy with Dunleavy until one of three things happens:
    1. George matures to a point that his game is better than Dunleavy's.
    2. The light goes off for Rush on the offensive end of the court.
    3. The Pacers trade for a better SG or sign one through free agency.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    i miss dunleavy when he was such a good shooter

    if we had that dunleavy and rush playing there we would be one powerful team and george coming off the bench with rush
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    While I like Mike, I just don't think he brings anything to the table that can't either be bettered or replaced.

    He's only averaging 11pts while shooting 40% from the field. Surely Brandon can atleast average that, this year, with better defense.


    Yes, he's a great cutter without the ball, and it leads to 2-3 layups a game, but I don't think those are unreplaceable scores.

    He's just not bringing anything special to the arena. If he was shooting around 60% while averaging 11pts, and that was because he was knocking down open shots and getting clean cuts, then okay, that's a lot better. But he's averaging those 11pts by taking 11 shots per game, and out of those 11 six per game are 3pt fg attempts. Ick.....

    Dunleavy averages 12pts per game for his entire career, and that's even with a 19pt season mixed in. The year that he was traded to Indy he averaged 14 with GSW and 11.4pts here. We shouldn't expect anymore. He's not going to bring 16pts per game, that's just not who he is, especially considering he's 3years removed from his 19pt season with major knee injury.

    As much as we complain about Rush's lack of production, he still has a very legit chance at becoming a lot better offensively. At the same time, if he merely remains the same, he's still giving pretty close production that Dunleavy brings.

    Mike just doesn't really bring a whole lot to the table. He's way more valuable as a trading piece than on-the-court production.

    I'm not sure what makes you think Brandon could average "at least" 11 points a game. He only averaged 9.4 pts per game last year at 30mpg.
    Also he only brought 4 rpg and 1.7 apg. Granted, its only 3 games, but Dunleavy pulling down nearly 7 rpg.

    Even though, I'll argue Mike has better stats, its not about stats. If Rush isn't shooting a 3, he is not participating in the offense. No cuts, no movement, nothing. In fact, his man gets to take each play off on defense. Or at least I hope he does, because otherwise we're playing 4 on 5.

    You are correct, Mike will never average 19ppg again. But I think he will end this year averaging 13 to 15. But Mike doesn't need to score to be effective. His motion helps the offense, it causes late rotations and switches allowing someone to capitalize. Until I see something different, IMO, Rush only contributes on that end of the floor if he hits an open 3.
    Last edited by Diamond Dave; 11-02-2010 at 02:35 PM.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    I really like Mike and want him to succeed. I thought the big year that he had a couple years ago showed how valuable he is. But in all three games this year, when MDJ is out there, I have wanted PG in there instead. I guess now I'd prefer PG start and MDJ come off the bench, and Rush play sparingly. Of course it makes no sense to start a rookie, etc. etc. so it would never happen.

    To the comparisons drawn in this post, I agree that MJD should be above Rush in the depth chart.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by MTM View Post
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    I really like Mike and want him to succeed. I thought the big year that he had a couple years ago showed how valuable he is. But in all three games this year, when MDJ is out there, I have wanted PG in there instead. I guess now I'd prefer PG start and MDJ come off the bench, and Rush play sparingly. Of course it makes no sense to start a rookie, etc. etc. so it would never happen.

    To the comparisons drawn in this post, I agree that MJD should be above Rush in the depth chart.
    why not?? i want the best players out there i dont care if they are 20 yr vets or rookies. PG24 should be starting in front of mike because the defense he brings along side danny.(until Brush comes back)

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Mike just doesn't really bring a whole lot to the table. He's way more valuable as a trading piece than on-the-court production.
    Frankly, this is the type of comment that totally confuses me. If Mike does not bring "a whole lot to the table", how is it possible that he is "way more valuable as a trading piece".

    I can't see that both of these statements could possibly be true. Considering his salary, the only way that Mike could be "way more valuable as a trading piece" would be if he indeed does bring quite a bit to the table.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave View Post
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    Even though, I'll argue Mike has better stats, its not about stats. If Rush isn't shooting a 3, he is not participating in the offense. No cuts, no movement, nothing. In fact, his man gets to take each play off on defense. Or at least I hope he does, because otherwise we're playing 4 on 5.
    Rush shot 41% from three last year. The other team's defense HAS to respect his ability to shoot the ball. The idea that we are playing 4 on 5 with him on the floor is just flat out incorrect. He isn't Jeff Foster.
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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Dunleavy is one of the few veterans we have on this roster, and his experience is needed. He knows what he is doing on the court, and will do whatever it takes for his team to win. undertands the "team" concept. Rush is still young and unproven, PG is too raw now. If we want to continue winning, Dunleavy is the guy at SG.

    If we start losing big, then Leavy needs to take a seat so PG and Rush can develop. You got to strike the iron while its hot, and Dunleavy looks like a really good fit with this young group.

    People ripping Dunleavy here really don't know the game of basketball.

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    Default Re: I still want Mike Dunleavy to start once Rush returns

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaas0532 View Post
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    Dunleavy is one of the few veterans we have on this roster, and his experience is needed. He knows what he is doing on the court, and will do whatever it takes for his team to win. undertands the "team" concept. Rush is still young and unproven, PG is too raw now. If we want to continue winning, Dunleavy is the guy at SG.

    If we start losing big, then Leavy needs to take a seat so PG and Rush can develop. You got to strike the iron while its hot, and Dunleavy looks like a really good fit with this young group.

    People ripping Dunleavy here really don't know the game of basketball.
    All i know is that Defense wins chapionships and Dunleavy doesnt play defense

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