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Thread: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

  1. #101
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    That line shouldn't be directed at me. You know I'm not part of that pack. And furthermore, it's not a knock on O'Brien to point out that he has made it abundantly clear for years on end that he highly values defending/protecting the paint at 'all costs.' It's an understandable philosophy he obviously believes strongly in.
    Certainly you don't use it as often, but it is believed in so strongly by others that I felt I needed to preface my response with that line in order to prevent the rejoinder "but JOB TOLD him to stand there" from showing up in someone's response down the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Which would be why I said that I agree he shouldn't be staring at the ball.

    I have no idea why you quoted/responded to my post.
    Yes, you're right, I was incomplete. I should have added something like:

    It is hard for me to believe that JOB would be coaching someone to watch a play, watch a man get free, and stand still because some particular point on the floor is going to protect the paint. The point I was not making clear was that if he is watching the play unfold, moving IS the best way to protect the paint. This would tell me that he is neither playing in a fundamental fashion (watching something other than the ball), nor is he doing what JOB preaches, which is to protect the paint.
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  2. #102
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Certainly you don't use it as often, but it is believed in so strongly by others that I felt I needed to preface my response with that line in order to prevent the rejoinder "but JOB TOLD him to stand there" from showing up in someone's response down the road.
    Shouldn't you wait until that argument is made, before you give the response?

    You keep telling us that we need to wait for TJ to fail at the end of games before being annoyed that he's closing them, or for us to wait for Posey to play badly, before we get annoyed that he's Danny's backup.


  3. #103

    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I really disagree everything you say about Mike. But that made me laugh out loud at the office so kudos for the post!
    JOB is a silly man

  4. #104
    Yeah, I'm a Pacers fan. MyFavMartin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    My thought is that Mike has a high bball IQ and we've got one guy who hasn't proven he can leave the chiva alone during the season and another whose a rookie. We okay with Dahntay going forward. Else, whose a FA we would want in place of Mike?

    The numbers were just something to throw out there. Would 4,3, and 2 be too low?

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    As much love as I have given Mike in the latter half of this thead, I think that would be a horrible mistake. With his age and injury risk, along with the inconsistant shooting and questionable defensive skill (not team D, but quickness) it's a bad idea.
    Relative to the bad contract we gave Dhantay Jones, this actually isn't that bad. Unlike Dhantay, who nobody else would give a multiyear deal, Mike has at least proven he belongs on the court in the rotation (even if he shouldn't be counted on for 30+ mpg).
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  6. #106
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Relative to the bad contract we gave Dhantay Jones, this actually isn't that bad. Unlike Dhantay, who nobody else would give a multiyear deal, Mike has at least proven he belongs on the court in the rotation (even if he shouldn't be counted on for 30+ mpg).
    Djones deal is good for the price JOB just doesnt like wings that cant spread the floor. resigning mike would be a mistake unless it is 2mill or less a season

  7. #107

    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Totally agree that he needs to stop staring at the ball, but given how much Jim O'Brien values protecting the paint, isn't it possible he's been coached to stand there near the paint and to first worry about keeping the ball from being passed in there?
    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    what is wrong with the gearld wallce play u want him to guard him at halfcourt (gerald is not a great shooter he is a driver)??? most of these are because that is the way we play defense in JOBs system.
    Well, let's see... I don't think the problem is his positioning, that pronounced sagging off, sinking till the free-throw line extended. I agree that's something O'Brien designed that way. The Pacers weakside positioning is generally very deep, frequently one sees 3 players in a cluster along the lane. So, he's not supposed to be playing denial, to be on that ball-man line - but a couple of steps below it. And yeah, I'd also guess that O'Brien's goal with this is to prevent penetration from the top and to act as a disincentive to high-post flashes. He wants that guy at the top of the helpline to be in position to overhelp.

    But, as others have said, he still needs to know where his man is. The basic principle of weakside defense is to always know the position of the ball and the position of the man. By staring at the ball, George loses sight of his man. The position would be a perfect excuse if he was beaten by a quick ball reversal and didn't have enough time to recover to his man, but not to get lost. In that Gerald Wallace play he's so lost that while the Bobcats are executing the ball reversal he steps upward, than steps baseline and finally steps sideline to close out - no idea on where was the guy he was supposed to be guarding. He needed to have the awareness to stay with his man or, if not possible, to switch to Brown.

    Now, where we can try to blame O'Brien is that a strong communication should prevent this kind of situations to some extent. For example, Dunleavy had time to shout at George that Wallace was cutting to the rim.. and doesn't look like he did. There are plenty of plays where the Pacers show they don't communicate very well - especially on the defensive transition that's very obvious. In this game there's a play where Stephen Jackson goes coast-to-coast to a lay-up in a straight line where Dunleavy basically gets out of his way to drift to the wing to defend DJ Augustin when Collison was already there. That's another defensive possession that was so bad I couldn't forget it.

    There aren't good defenses without lots of communication between the players and coaches must work on that. The Pacers probably need a defensive captain, a guy like Garnett, Sheed, Battier, Duncan... someone who can see the floor well and barks orders at his teammates. Not sure they have anyone up to the job, difficult to assess those things watching on tv. Maybe Hibbert. But the helpers, like Dunleavy in that play, can't stay mute either. In a team with better communication, George would be less prone to these mistakes.

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  9. #108
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cordobes View Post
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    Well, let's see... I don't think the problem is his positioning, that pronounced sagging off, sinking till the free-throw line extended. I agree that's something O'Brien designed that way. The Pacers weakside positioning is generally very deep, frequently one sees 3 players in a cluster along the lane. So, he's not supposed to be playing denial, to be on that ball-man line - but a couple of steps below it. And yeah, I'd also guess that O'Brien's goal with this is to prevent penetration from the top and to act as a disincentive to high-post flashes. He wants that guy at the top of the helpline to be in position to overhelp.

    But, as others have said, he still needs to know where his man is. The basic principle of weakside defense is to always know the position of the ball and the position of the man. By staring at the ball, George loses sight of his man. The position would be a perfect excuse if he was beaten by a quick ball reversal and didn't have enough time to recover to his man, but not to get lost. In that Gerald Wallace play he's so lost that while the Bobcats are executing the ball reversal he steps upward, than steps baseline and finally steps sideline to close out - no idea on where was the guy he was supposed to be guarding. He needed to have the awareness to stay with his man or, if not possible, to switch to Brown.

    Now, where we can try to blame O'Brien is that a strong communication should prevent this kind of situations to some extent. For example, Dunleavy had time to shout at George that Wallace was cutting to the rim.. and doesn't look like he did. There are plenty of plays where the Pacers show they don't communicate very well - especially on the defensive transition that's very obvious. In this game there's a play where Stephen Jackson goes coast-to-coast to a lay-up in a straight line where Dunleavy basically gets out of his way to drift to the wing to defend DJ Augustin when Collison was already there. That's another defensive possession that was so bad I couldn't forget it.

    There aren't good defenses without lots of communication between the players and coaches must work on that. The Pacers probably need a defensive captain, a guy like Garnett, Sheed, Battier, Duncan... someone who can see the floor well and barks orders at his teammates. Not sure they have anyone up to the job, difficult to assess those things watching on tv. Maybe Hibbert. But the helpers, like Dunleavy in that play, can't stay mute either. In a team with better communication, George would be less prone to these mistakes.
    i agree with everything he is a rookie mistakes are expected and will be corrected.


    I cant wait for the bucks game friday. Just watch them play the bobcats play by play. They play very simalar to us. They push the ball up the foor with brandon jennings and play thru Bogut. Should be intersting to see how well we defend. Delfino is getting a lot of open looks if they are making thier shots they win if not they lose. Brandon jennings vs DC2 is key also who will guard granger? Hibbert is going to have to play extra hard vs bogut will be a fun game to watch.

  10. #109
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Djones deal is good for the price JOB just doesnt like wings that cant spread the floor. resigning mike would be a mistake unless it is 2mill or less a season
    We gave a 14th-man a guaranteed, multiyear contract. Jim O'Brien is the least of Dhantay Jones' problems. Because Jim O'Brien doesn't explain why all the other teams let him go or didn't want to offer him a multiyear contract. In all fairness, Dhantay was perceived as an eighth/ ninth man when he arrived (and those guys don't usually have multiyear contracts unless they are on their rookie contact and moving up in the rotation). But he played himself onto the inactive roster.

    I'm pretty sure that O'Brien wanted Dhantay to be better than he actually was. He was given lots of opportunities and lots of minutes and every time he proved he should be given less/ none. Don't blame O'Brien for the fact that Dhantay just isn't any good.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  12. #110

    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    We gave a 14th-man a guaranteed, multiyear contract. Jim O'Brien is the least of Dhantay Jones' problems. Because Jim O'Brien doesn't explain why all the other teams let him go or didn't want to offer him a multiyear contract. In all fairness, Dhantay was perceived as an eighth/ ninth man when he arrived (and those guys don't usually have multiyear contracts unless they are on their rookie contact and moving up in the rotation). But he played himself onto the inactive roster.

    I'm pretty sure that O'Brien wanted Dhantay to be better than he actually was. He was given lots of opportunities and lots of minutes and every time he proved he should be given less/ none. Don't blame O'Brien for the fact that Dhantay just isn't any good.
    In all fairness to Dhantay Jones he also under a different more respected coach played himself into the rotation. If we were weak at sg and defense then I think Jones would be an option for us. RIght now though your point is well taken.

  13. #111
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    He was ninth on the team in minutes per game in Denver. He was a starter in name only. And he was probably in the starting lineup because George Karl hated watching him screw up the second unit with his selfish play.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #112

    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    I can always count on the sun coming up in the morning and Jay disliking Dahntay as a player.

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  16. #113

    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    He was ninth on the team in minutes per game in Denver. He was a starter in name only. And he was probably in the starting lineup because George Karl hated watching him screw up the second unit with his selfish play.
    All maybe true but I tend to think that minutes on a good team with a good coach mean more than minutes on a bad team with a bad coach.

    Jones isn't probably worth his contract but he is only the 14th man on this team because of the depth at the position. Things can change very quickly IMO and all you have to do is look to the Miami Heat with former pacer James Jones who signed a multi-year contract with the Heat. He of course was released and picked up again and is now playing a lot of minutes do to injuries.

    I don't fault Bird signing Jones to his contract because he had 3 reasons to do it. A whinny coach complaining about defense. A pot smoking 2 guard who underperformed and a injury prone sg/sf in Dunleavy.

    Insurance can cost you a lot and it may not be the best policy but its better than no insurance at all.

  17. #114
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    All good reasons to sign him. to a ONE YEAR contract!!

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  18. #115
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    I just can't see getting worked up over D. Jones and his contract. he's making 2.5 this year, 2.7 next and 2.9 the year after. That isn't much money and he'll becaome more and more tradeable as we move along. He doesn't fit here now because of Rush and Geroge and the return of Dunleavy, but other teams will want him as a good defensive stopper (notice I didn't say a great defensive stopper)

    I also think he is good on the bench for team morale - he is up encouraging guys and if we have some injuries I think he can play.

    I don't see a real downside with D,. Jones

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  20. #116
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I can always count on the sun coming up in the morning and Jay disliking Dahntay as a player.


    You must not live in Chicago (yes, I know you are on the west coast), because we can't even count on the sun coming up in the morning. All we've got is my dislike of handful of players.

    There are like five players over the past decade that I've strongly disliked:

    Travis, SJax, TJ Ford (a/k/a Travis, Jr.), Dhantay, and Murphy.

    And one particular bipolar player who I wanted to get rid of, although when he occasionally showed up with his head on straight he was a good player to watch. He just wasn't worth the risk...

    Yes, I know I've harped on those things a lot. You would be bored if I stopped.

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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