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Thread: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Hyperbole at its very best.
    I don't think so. He is a black hole on defense. Any player who is that big of a liability on defense shouldn't be in the NBA...unless of course your a great offensive player. Dunleavy was a bad defender during his career year, now he is just absolutely terrible. People fly by him like it's nothing - and he doesn't even mak an effort in some area. Someone brought up him not even attempting to block out Gerald Wallace. Gerald Wallace. One of the best rebounders in the NBA. You talk about his great basketball I.Q. and he can't remember that he needs to block out one of the best rebounders in the NBA? He had position and everything and he didn't even try to block him out. I don't think he should be in the NBA...I see our rookie making more of an impact on the game already.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The shot didn't fall last year and according to him he was 100% healthy, so we can't use that as an excuse.
    Yeah, you watched him last year. Do you really think he was 100% healthy? I think he has looked much more spry this year. I don't think he'll ever reach the level he was once at, but his shot will begin to fall.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The shot didn't fall last year and according to him he was 100% healthy, so we can't use that as an excuse.
    To add to that outside of his 19ppg season Dunleavy for his career has been pretty average shooter. His shot might get slightly better, but honestly I highly doubt he even gets close to where it was 3 years ago. He is at that point in his career where players either settle to about their average or start to decline. It is rare for a player to have career years at his point in his career. Those kind of years typically happen about 3 years ago.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I really don't think he's been that bad. There is a tremendous backlash on this board to the veterans in general, outside of Danny. We want to look for the good in the young guys and pump rainbows up their asses, so we look the other way when Paul George makes a dumb foul or loses his handle as he drives to the lane. But every time Dunleavy misses a shot or gets beat on defense, we are all over him about it. I think he has done some nice things for us. He moves well without the ball on offense, even last night in the fourth quarter when everyone else was standing around watching Danny. His defense is pretty bad, but he has been rebounding the ball decently and is in the mix for a bunch more. I'll be happy with him being in the second unit when Rush gets back, because a 6th man role is perfect for him.
    People don't get on George like they do a veteran because he is a rookie, he is still learning, and he will fix those mistakes. A veteran though should know how to play better and not make those mistakes.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    To add to that outside of his 19ppg season Dunleavy for his career has been pretty average shooter. His shot might get slightly better, but honestly I highly doubt he even gets close to where it was 3 years ago. He is at that point in his career where players either settle to about their average or start to decline. It is rare for a player to have career years at his point in his career. Those kind of years typically happen about 3 years ago.
    I been saying this forever, he only had one season were he average 19ppg, before that he had a 14ppg, 12.8ppg and 11.5ppg season. Is amazing how some people think Dunleavy is been an scoring machine for years(like Tmac) and that he is coming back to his old form and is going to score 19ppg once again.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore View Post
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    I guess my point was, that everybody's issue with Dunleavy is more or less an issue with the Coach and how he is being used. I think Dunleavy has a very "unique" skillset. I think Dunleavy could come off the bench for the Lakers and be a productive player.

    Everyone on this board acts as if he is a D-league talent.
    That's not saying too much. DJ Mbenga came off the bench for the Lakers last year and was a fairly productive player in the minutes that he got. It's really easy to be productive when you're being carried by a cast of all-stars and gold medalists.
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Yeah, you watched him last year. Do you really think he was 100% healthy? I think he has looked much more spry this year. I don't think he'll ever reach the level he was once at, but his shot will begin to fall.
    If he is saying that he was 100% healthy I believe him and I don't think he looks any different from last year, he is pretty much the same player.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Actually I've kind of changed my mind on how Mike should be used on our club this season.

    I used to think his best use would be as the top man on the 2nd unit but now I've come to believe (yes I know after only 2 games so my mind can easily change again) that he should either be with the starters or not in the regular rotation.

    I don't think Mike can get his own shot anymore, if he ever really could I don't know but let's assume he could.

    Mike right now is a facilitator of offense and thus he needs others around him who can score to be totally usefull. Either by being a passer or moving without the ball to draw defenders away from the shooters.

    From what I've seen with him in the second unit is that the opposition focuses more on him making it so he never has an easy shot and limits his movement. Either way when no one else is scoring (other than the p.g.) Mike is not drawing people away from anyone as at best they are staying home on their man or sagging off of our shooters begging them to take a jump shot.

    Mike has been very good this year about dedicating himself to helping out on the boards and while defensivly he is always going to be the weak link in the chain (now that Murphy is gone) he has been pretty decent about helping our bigs with a quick double team.

    I think he works best with the starters for right now. When Rush comes back we'll have to see where he fits in then.


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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    He had one good season. That one season isn't what we should expect from him. He's simply fallen back to earth. This is Dunleavy. Sure, he'll have a game here and there (hopefully) where he'll remind you of the Dunleavy from a couple years ago, but we shouldn't look at those and think, "He's back!" Similarly, we shouldn't look at his struggles now and hope that he will someday get it together, that someday his shots will fall at a higher rate or that someday he'll be a better defender.

    The key with Dunleavy, I think, is to lower your expectations. He is as average as average gets. Even on nights when his shot is falling and he's scoring 15-20 points, he gives up a good percentage of that on the other end. The sooner O'Brien realizes this the better.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    He had one good season. That one season isn't what we should expect from him. He's simply fallen back to earth. This is Dunleavy. Sure, he'll have a game here and there (hopefully) where he'll remind you of the Dunleavy from a couple years ago, but we shouldn't look at those and think, "He's back!" Similarly, we shouldn't look at his struggles now and hope that he will someday get it together, that someday his shots will fall at a higher rate or that someday he'll be a better defender.

    The key with Dunleavy, I think, is to lower your expectations. He is as average as average gets. Even on nights when his shot is falling and he's scoring 15-20 points, he gives up a good percentage of that on the other end. The sooner O'Brien realizes this the better.
    I couldn't say it better myself.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Actually I've kind of changed my mind on how Mike should be used on our club this season.

    I used to think his best use would be as the top man on the 2nd unit but now I've come to believe (yes I know after only 2 games so my mind can easily change again) that he should either be with the starters or not in the regular rotation.

    I don't think Mike can get his own shot anymore, if he ever really could I don't know but let's assume he could.

    Mike right now is a facilitator of offense and thus he needs others around him who can score to be totally usefull. Either by being a passer or moving without the ball to draw defenders away from the shooters.

    From what I've seen with him in the second unit is that the opposition focuses more on him making it so he never has an easy shot and limits his movement. Either way when no one else is scoring (other than the p.g.) Mike is not drawing people away from anyone as at best they are staying home on their man or sagging off of our shooters begging them to take a jump shot.

    Mike has been very good this year about dedicating himself to helping out on the boards and while defensivly he is always going to be the weak link in the chain (now that Murphy is gone) he has been pretty decent about helping our bigs with a quick double team.

    I think he works best with the starters for right now. When Rush comes back we'll have to see where he fits in then.
    Ok so lets say he is the starter, but who is going to play D then? Dunleavy is a bad defender, Danny is looking better but he is still average, Roy is looking good by helping and blocking shots but he can only do so much, Mcbob is getting there but is still learning how to play D.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Yeah, you watched him last year. Do you really think he was 100% healthy? I think he has looked much more spry this year.

    No absolutely not, he wasn't 100% last year, and it showed. And you are right, I don't believe he will ever get back to his 1 great season.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Ok so lets say he is the starter, but who is going to play D then? Dunleavy is a bad defender, Danny is looking better but he is still average, Roy is looking good by helping and blocking shots but he can only do so much, Mcbob is getting there but is still learning how to play D.
    Well in the two games I've seen Danny has been better than average (ok that may not be correct but he was so bad last year that this year he looks like Gary Payton). Roy has been outstanding on defense and yes McRoberts has struggled a little more than I would have liked but again remember who was holding that spot last season and we both can agree that even bad defense from Josh is still better than the best defense Murphy ever played.

    I just have no more faith in Brandon than I do in Dunleavy. To me they are the exact same player just on opposite ends of the floor. Mike can't defend and Brandon can't score. Mike can defend on occasion & Brandon can score on occasion but far more often than not neither do what they should be doing.

    I would say, after two games, that our biggest needs right now is a quality starting 2 guard and a good decent backup center who can give you some offense when needed and mostly some size and rebounding.


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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    His shot will fall, I'm not worried about that. Two games is a small sample size and he has been a pretty good shooter in the past.
    Based on what? His shot has never fell consistently in his entire career, except for one season, 47% in his famed 07-08 19ppg season. He's a career 35% 3 pt shooter and 43% overall. He's only shot above 40% 3's one time ever, he also shot 28% one season.

    This great passer has averaged .5 more assists than Danny, a scorer, not exactly known for his passing ability. The last 2 seasons are more in line with his career averages than his one good season.

    Every indication points to his one good season being an aberration, not a sign of things to come.

    The myth of Doneleavy on this board is staggering. He's just not that good of a NBA player, never has been, never will be.

    Unless everyone actually believes a guy going into his 9th season is suddenly going to a different player than the previous 8 seasons, I think not.
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    So, now we can institute Rushleavy for our hybrid shooting guard position?

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Well in the two games I've seen Danny has been better than average (ok that may not be correct but he was so bad last year that this year he looks like Gary Payton). Roy has been outstanding on defense and yes McRoberts has struggled a little more than I would have liked but again remember who was holding that spot last season and we both can agree that even bad defense from Josh is still better than the best defense Murphy ever played.

    I just have no more faith in Brandon than I do in Dunleavy. To me they are the exact same player just on opposite ends of the floor. Mike can't defend and Brandon can't score. Mike can defend on occasion & Brandon can score on occasion but far more often than not neither do what they should be doing.

    I would say, after two games, that our biggest needs right now is a quality starting 2 guard and a good decent backup center who can give you some offense when needed and mostly some size and rebounding.
    Hopefully not too long in the future I would like to see --SG=George; b/u center =McRoberts. I just want more than McRob as a starting PF and do not know if Tyler is the starting PF. It would have been interesting to see what Rolle could have contributed. I'm giving up on Dun as a significant contributor.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Hopefully not too long in the future I would like to see --SG=George; b/u center =McRoberts. I just want more than McRob as a starting PF and do not know if Tyler is the starting PF. It would have been interesting to see what Rolle could have contributed. I'm giving up on Dun as a significant contributor.
    Yeah I don't think we really need a back up Center at this moment, why not play Tyler at PF and Mcbob at Center when Roy needs a breather? lets say we get a back up center, is he going to be better than either Mcbob, Tyler or even Solo? I don't think so.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I just have no more faith in Brandon than I do in Dunleavy. To me they are the exact same player just on opposite ends of the floor. Mike can't defend and Brandon can't score. .
    I don't understand how people say "Brandon can't score". He can knock down threes at a +40% rate. That IS scoring. He may not attack the basket or draw a lot of fouls, but he can certainly shoot the rock. He also plays within the system and can pass decently well. (unlike Jones)

    I mean, what kind of "scoring" are you really looking for out of your 4th or 5th option? The problem in the past is that we NEEDED him to score because we didn't have as many options. With Hibbert coming into his own and the addition of Collison, Rush should thrive in his proper role. His scoring oppurtunities will come from playing off the superior offensive players surrounding him.
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I don't understand how people say "Brandon can't score". He can knock down threes at a +40% rate. That IS scoring. He may not attack the basket or draw a lot of fouls, but he can certainly shoot the rock. He also plays within the system and can pass decently well. (unlike Jones)

    I mean, what kind of "scoring" are you really looking for out of your 4th or 5th option? The problem in the past is that we NEEDED him to score because we didn't have as many options. With Hibbert coming into his own and the addition of Collison, Rush should thrive in his proper role. His scoring oppurtunities will come from playing off the superior offensive players surrounding him.
    40% shooter who averages less than 10pts/game is not that impressive especially when he plays more minutes than everyone else.. He wasn't drafted to be a 4th or 5th option. He was drafted to be a 2nd or at worst a third option. Second rounders are 4th or 5th options.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    Based on what? His shot has never fell consistently in his entire career, except for one season, 47% in his famed 07-08 19ppg season. He's a career 35% 3 pt shooter and 43% overall. He's only shot above 40% 3's one time ever, he also shot 28% one season.

    This great passer has averaged .5 more assists than Danny, a scorer, not exactly known for his passing ability. The last 2 seasons are more in line with his career averages than his one good season.

    Every indication points to his one good season being an aberration, not a sign of things to come.

    The myth of Doneleavy on this board is staggering. He's just not that good of a NBA player, never has been, never will be.

    Unless everyone actually believes a guy going into his 9th season is suddenly going to a different player than the previous 8 seasons, I think not.
    I never, ever said he was a great passer. I don't think I ever spoke to his passing abilities at all, actually.

    I don't think anyone is saying he is that good. I think I've said multiple times that I think his best role on this team would be with the second unit. He is what he is, but everyone has to go to one extreme or the other on this board. I think he should play 18-22 mpg, and if he gets hot, maybe ride him a little longer. I'm defending him against people who say he shouldn't be in the NBA anymore and whine incessantly when he misses a shot. He's not that good, but he's not that bad either. He's somewhere inbetween the extremes, like most everything else we discuss on this board.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    Based on what? His shot has never fell consistently in his entire career, except for one season, 47% in his famed 07-08 19ppg season. He's a career 35% 3 pt shooter and 43% overall. He's only shot above 40% 3's one time ever, he also shot 28% one season.

    This great passer has averaged .5 more assists than Danny, a scorer, not exactly known for his passing ability. The last 2 seasons are more in line with his career averages than his one good season.

    Every indication points to his one good season being an aberration, not a sign of things to come.

    The myth of Doneleavy on this board is staggering. He's just not that good of a NBA player, never has been, never will be.

    Unless everyone actually believes a guy going into his 9th season is suddenly going to a different player than the previous 8 seasons, I think not.


    Great passing doesn't always lead to an assist, especially when you are not the point guard. Great passing is a pass that a player doesn't have to reach for, it is a pass that doesn't automatically put a player off balance. Watch Dunleavy when he passes, you will see what I mean.

    The best example is Dunleavys pass to Granger for the buzzer beater 3 pt shot against Phoenix (was that a year or two years ago, I can't remember). NO WAY does Granger make that shot, if it were not for an absolutely perfect pass from Dun.
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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore View Post
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    I think the Dunleavy hate on this board is incredible. Sure he is not our best player, but he does a lot of things that help this team. Mainly, he is an excellent passer. I can think of two plays where he made excellent passes that lead to a score (not necessarily an assist, but a great pass within the flow of the offense that lead to a bucket)

    His alley oop pass to McRoberts last night was PERFECT. TJ Ford could of converted that alley oop, the pass was so good .

    Also, his three point shooting is questionable at times but i'd rather him be confident than deal with Brandon Rush being scared to take two steps.

    Dunleavy is also an excellent team defender. Bottom line is he may be the best passer on this team not named Collison. Our offense has looked VERY GOOD the first two games and passing is a big reason for that. When you have Collison, Dunleavy, and Roy on the floor together you have three VERY GOOD passers on the floor. Watch when Dunleavy passes the ball to Granger, he always hits Granger RIGHT where he is ready to shoot, it is a thing of beauty that apparently is missed by most viewers. (Not saying I am some excellent basketball analyst, but I do pay attention to passing)

    I think Dunleavy needs to be coming off the bench playing 15-20 min a game max. I think with the second unit he could probably be more effective as a facilitator/scorer. He is always going to make the right pass and put guys in a good position to score (that is assuming players are moving, screening, cutting, etc.) IT has been said by other posters, but Dunleavy is a player whose stat line rarely tells the whole story, similar to Foster (whose great defense often doesn't show up on a stat line)
    I'm getting tired of this "team defense" argument. If you look at the Pacers' team defensive statistics, they are horrible, so even if Dunleavy's team defense is as strong as you say it isn't helping much.

    I argee with you about Dunleavy being a good offensive facilitator for the second unit, though. I don't "hate" Dunleavy. He has some important skills. I just don't care for his defense. We need better defense much more than more scoring from the starters, which is why I see Rush being a much better choice to start. As long as Rush isn't required to create offensively he will be fine hitting from outside or when open while defending the opponent's best scoring wing. I'd actually be fine with Dunleavy continuing to play for Indiana in the future for a cheap contract (assuming he gets better over time; I'm giving the benefit of the doubt regarding his injury history), but I don't want to see him as a starting wing guarding LeBron or Kobe.
    Last edited by IndyPacer; 10-30-2010 at 06:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    40% shooter who averages less than 10pts/game is not that impressive especially when he plays more minutes than everyone else.. He wasn't drafted to be a 4th or 5th option. He was drafted to be a 2nd or at worst a third option. Second rounders are 4th or 5th options.
    It doesn't matter where he was drafted at or what he was drafted to do. He is what he is so he should be used wherever he fits in best, not forced to do something he's not good at.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
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    It doesn't matter where he was drafted at or what he was drafted to do. He is what he is so he should be used wherever he fits in best, not forced to do something he's not good at.
    That may mean playing for some other team. Some people feel that way and some don't.
    Last edited by speakout4; 10-30-2010 at 07:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Does nobody see what Dunleavy does on the floor?

    Dunleavy is a well-rounded offensive player. If he keeps shooting like this, he's not worth his salt, but slumps happen. I'd use Dunleavy a lot more as a shooter coming off screens, he's a bit underutilized. To me it's not as much about the minutes as it is about usage.

    A good example of Dunleavy's poor defense for those who watched last game was that ballside back-cut by Henderson that leaves Dunleavy in his dust and receives a pass from the low block to a lay-up or that button-hook by Gerald Wallace in the 4th quarter (right after Dunleavy hits a mid-range jumper in the kind of play I'm saying he should be used more). Or when he didn't put a body on Gerald Wallace and that lead to a dunk.

    A good example of Dunleavy's superior team defense is, in that same play that eventually lead to G. Wallace's dunk, how he doubles Diaw in the left midpost - the Pacers were being killed with shots from the outside for sending doubles there but Dunleavy (1) didn't telegraph his double; (2) attacked with the correct angle taking away the passing lane to the strongside shooter - forcing Diaw to throw a difficult pass that almost become a turnover.

    Poor defender, but some stuff he does saves him from being terrible. I thought there were worse defenders on the floor for the Pacers yesterday night.
    Last edited by cordobes; 10-30-2010 at 08:43 PM.

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