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Thread: JOB deserves some credit

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    Member Pacergeek's Avatar
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    Default JOB deserves some credit

    Look at how he developed Hibbert. Roy has gone from a "risky" draft prospect to one of the best young centers in the game. Is it coach's fault that we missed 4 consecutive free-throws in a critical part of the game? Is it coach's fault that we basiclly froze in the fourth quarter? People need to realize that we have a young, inexperienced team that needs to learn how to win in the fourth quarter.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Agreed completely. Well..maybe not one of the best, but that's for another day.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaas0532 View Post
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    Look at how he developed Hibbert. Roy has gone from a "risky" draft prospect to one of the best young centers in the game. Is it coach's fault that we missed 4 consecutive free-throws in a critical part of the game? Is it coach's fault that we basiclly froze in the fourth quarter? People need to realize that we have a young, inexperienced team that needs to learn how to win in the fourth quarter.
    I think most of the credit for Hibberts improvement comes from his own mad desire to improve, the only management that deserves much credit for it imo, is bird, who set him up with his choice of HOF big men to work with.

    Not that JOB isn't bagged on a bit much around here in general, but Hibberts growth isn't something that is on him.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    I wouldn't give JOB credit. Roy put in his own time working out, kickboxing, MMA training. Also, Bill Walton spent time with him in the off season, probably as a favor to Bird, not JOB.

    JOB's credit is that he is actually utilizing Hibbert.
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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Roy is sick of everyone saying what a great offseason he had and how one week with Bill has suddenly made him one of the best centers in the league, and I totally agree with him.

    It's what should be expected of every player. I'm sure Darren Collison, McRoberts and most of the other players worked just as hard.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Of course, taking Thingfish's point further, we could blame Jimmy for all the other players not developing similarly.



    Seriously, we should all be extremely happy with how Roy has developed, whether he wants us to be proud of him or not.* As Clark said last night, he's on pace to be an All-Star, and that's a far cry from the stiff we drafted outside the lottery.



    *Somebody needs to tell Roy the story of David Harrison, so maybe he'll give us a break and let us enjoy this.
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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    If JOB had anything to do with Hibbert's development he'll be shooting 3's and wouldn't think about playing inside.

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    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Are we talking about the same Hibbert that Jim repeatedly benched in favor of superstar centers such as Rasho Nesterovic, Jeff Foster, and Troy Murphy?

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Are we talking about the same Hibbert that Jim repeatedly benched in favor of superstar centers such as Rasho Nesterovic, Jeff Foster, and Troy Murphy?
    Yep is the same guy

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaas0532 View Post
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    Look at how he developed Hibbert. Roy has gone from a "risky" draft prospect to one of the best young centers in the game. Is it coach's fault that we missed 4 consecutive free-throws in a critical part of the game? Is it coach's fault that we basiclly froze in the fourth quarter? People need to realize that we have a young, inexperienced team that needs to learn how to win in the fourth quarter.
    I completely agree. Big Roy has come a long way, and he's just starting to tap into that talent. Let me say this, I am not a Jim O'Brien apologist, but a lot of people on here act like he had a loaded roster when he took over. Just to win 36 games with the talent or lack there of that we have had in the backcourt, is saying something.

    Now, what people have to understand is we have a young team, one of the youngest in the NBA, and we are going to have some growing pains. Much like we saw last night with the turnovers and missed free throws. That's on the players. I guess i'm really just getting sick of all the negative posts about Coach O'Brien. Would i like another coach? Sure, but let's be realistic, he's not going anywhere this year. Also, did a lot of you expect us to go into San Antonio and beat the Spurs? Let's just be patient and see what we can do this year, and try to understand that Coach is not going anywhere this year.

    Sorry for the rant, just sick of the negativity. Go Pacers.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Well the guys missing the FT's were the decidedly unyoung TJ ford and Mike Dunleavey. I think those were just stupid mistakes moreso than growing pains.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    JOB deserves all of the credit for leaving Roy, Josh and DC on the bench for way too long in the third and forth quarters.

    Roy developed inspite of JOB, just like Josh. If JOB had his way he would still have Murphy at the 4 and Foster starting at the 5.
    Last edited by pacers74; 10-28-2010 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Are we talking about the same Hibbert that Jim repeatedly benched in favor of superstar centers such as Rasho Nesterovic, Jeff Foster, and Troy Murphy?
    Wow. Roy's come a long way.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    JOB doesn't get the credit here, Roy is his own person and did this with his own will. Anything positive a player does on his own, JOB should get credit for now? JOB has done nothing for this team and never will. We lost the game last night at the end of the third with bad shot selection and it continued til the end. The 3 pointers will kill us everytime, especially playing a veteran team like the Spurs. We had them.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    The 3's were shot at a reasonable rate yesterday. I believe we only took one more than the spurs and shot at a reasonable percentage. They weren't the problem.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    All kinds of analytical problems here.

    If a player turns out well (e.g. Roy), it's self-improvement. If they turn out poorly (e.g. Brandon), it's Obie's fault. Prove to me that Brandon's inconsistency is because of Obie and not lack of effort and that Roy's newfound consistency is because of effort and not Obie. Could you?

    Then, there's the "he turned out well in spite not because of" arguments. These make no sense and are logically lacking. How would you set about proving, for example, that Roy's benching in favor of Rasho, etc. hurt his progress? How would you set about proving that the benching didn't help him?

    I'm not entirely invested in the Obie debate-in fact, I think this is my first Obie-centric post. I think he's an above average coach with serious faults (not everyone can be Jerry Sloan). More importantly, however, I think he's the best we can get at this stage of our franchise's development. I entered this debate because I'm sick and tired of the oversaturation of illogical, incoherent anti-Obie posts that now pervade this board. I think the detente approach that some posters have taken is a good one because the hate has gotten to the point with significant portions of this board that it transcends logical argumentation.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    All kinds of analytical problems here.

    If a player turns out well (e.g. Roy), it's self-improvement. If they turn out poorly (e.g. Brandon), it's Obie's fault. Prove to me that Brandon's inconsistency is because of Obie and not lack of effort and that Roy's newfound consistency is because of effort and not Obie. Could you?

    Then, there's the "he turned out well in spite not because of" arguments. These make no sense and are logically lacking. How would you set about proving, for example, that Roy's benching in favor of Rasho, etc. hurt his progress? How would you set about proving that the benching didn't help him?

    I'm not entirely invested in the Obie debate-in fact, I think this is my first Obie-centric post. I think he's an above average coach with serious faults (not everyone can be Jerry Sloan). More importantly, however, I think he's the best we can get at this stage of our franchise's development. I entered this debate because I'm sick and tired of the oversaturation of illogical, incoherent anti-Obie posts that now pervade this board. I think the detente approach that some posters have taken is a good one because the hate has gotten to the point with significant portions of this board that it transcends logical argumentation.

    I don't blame any coach if a player like B.Rush doesn't devlop. That is his fault or poor scouting to find out he has no potential.

    I do think if we would have fired JOB at the end of the season we could have a better coach right now. Look at at Cleveland Byron Scott is looking pretty good right now.
    Last edited by pacers74; 10-28-2010 at 03:26 PM.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    All kinds of analytical problems here.

    If a player turns out well (e.g. Roy), it's self-improvement. If they turn out poorly (e.g. Brandon), it's Obie's fault. Prove to me that Brandon's inconsistency is because of Obie and not lack of effort and that Roy's newfound consistency is because of effort and not Obie. Could you?
    Hmm

    Roy - He didn't get to play enough his first two years in the league. He sat out some unfavorable matchups. His usage rate wasn't high enough in the offense. What was JOb thinking?! (His foul rate his rookie year was abysmal, last year was better...but he still had conditioning issues)

    Here he is, looking better and better, responding well in his first game with the "new body."

    Brandon - He was force-fed minutes perhaps due to injury, or because he's our best defender. His playing time was a bit sporadic...but definitely plentiful in his rookie year. Playing time spiked last year.

    Brandon now - Can't really say. He's a defender and a three point shooter, though there are still glimpses of something more, something better.

    So, um, JOb played Brandon but managed Roy's minutes. Yes, Jim gets some credit for Roy's development. Yes, he gets some credit for Brandon's development, be it good or bad.

    Ultimately the player is who should get the majority of the credit, but the coach DEFINITELY had a role with Roy's progression.

    *I'm a fan of easing along rookies and youth, putting them in positions they can succeed and giving them a specific role to carry out. This is what OB does.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    I am amazed that JOB alone made him get in better shape physically, lose weight, gain strength, help his balance, footwork, quickness, mental maturity, and confidence. JOB is not just a coach, he is a nutritionist, trainer, kinesiologist, and therapist. Who knew? /green
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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    I am amazed that JOB alone made him get in better shape physically, lose weight, gain strength, help his balance, footwork, quickness, mental maturity, and confidence. JOB is not just a coach, he is a nutritionist, trainer, kinesiologist, and therapist. Who knew? /green
    How did we get there from "JOB deserves some credit"?

    This whole jumping to extremes thing and completely disregarding the middle ground is getting mighty old.
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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    How did we get there from "JOB deserves some credit"?

    This whole jumping to extremes thing and completely disregarding the middle ground is getting mighty old.
    Cite examples that helped Roy become the player. What directly helped.

    And I don't want "he help him understand how to play defense without fouling."

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Cite examples that helped Roy become the player. What directly helped.

    And I don't want "he help him understand how to play defense without fouling."
    Is it entirely impossible that a player not getting as much playing time as we'd like to see could push that player to work as hard as possible to get the playing time they want? It won't always make someone sit in a corner and sulk.

    I'm far from the Jim O'Brien defender, and I can see that.

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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Cite examples that helped Roy become the player. What directly helped.

    And I don't want "he help him understand how to play defense without fouling."
    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    Is it entirely impossible that a player not getting as much playing time as we'd like to see could push that player to work as hard as possible to get the playing time they want? It won't always make someone sit in a corner and sulk.

    I'm far from the Jim O'Brien defender, and I can see that.
    Do we know that Roy was working on everything with no input at all from O'Brien? That when he was sitting maybe O'Brien talked to him about what was needed for more playing time?

    If we start with the assumption that O'Brien can't do a single thing right, then I guess that's impossible.

    Can we prove it? Of course not. But if summer workouts and everything done outside of practice is only guided by the player, and if practices don't help the player get that guidance, why have coaches and practices in the first place? The players know what to do.
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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    This is too much like politics. People see what the want to see and derive the intentions and competence of the actors from that.

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    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB deserves some credit

    Well I disagree that the loss was or wasn't entirely Jims fault. It was his as well as Manu Ginobli, Tim Duncan, and George Hill's. Would they have went on that run in the fourth if we would have kept Roy or DC in and not played small ball or play Posey and Solo together too long?

    I don't know..

    But I do think that Jim has somewhat helped Roy come along. I think that he has motivated him to use his mid range jumper and high post play as well as getting quicker.

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