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Thread: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

  1. #126
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I was going to come on here and resume my customary battle with Bills over fan attendance and reasons there of, but Mackey Rose has already made all of my points.

    I just want to add my kudos to him for doing it so well.

    The fans that are there, and it has been this way for over a season now, are the fans that are going to be there night in & night out. Sure there are a few casuals who attend different games because of either a special player present, team we're playing or other reasons but the fans that are there are the fans that are going to be there.

    I think we insult the fans more who attend by constantly playing players who we have no intention of keeping.

    But BillS & I have been down this road before. We just happen to disagree over fan reaction & expectation.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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  3. #127
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Once you're out of the playoff race does it really matter if you win those last few games, stay losing by a close margin, or start to give more minutes to the younger players?

    In the end you still don't make the playoffs, so it's a moot point.
    How many games were you winning? 48 and not in, like in the West? Or 24 and barely out? I think that probably has an effect, because if you are over .500 and on a winning run you don't yank that back and essentially tell fans with tickets for the last games of the season they aren't going to get what they expected.

    (Going to general now, not specifically regarding anything since86 has said)

    In terms of team development, I will always value the experience of winning over the experience of more floor time in a losing effort. The question for me is not whether we are getting into the playoffs or somehow winning the season, the question is always what do we do to win THIS game.

    Again, this is from the perspective that you don't think your young guys are yet as good as your veterans. You always play your best guys. Your young guys will get their time when they are ready to get it.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    What do you mean "how many games were you winning?"

    We were winning around 35 games. I don't need to talk hypotheticals, because my point is based on what did happened, and what I think should of happened.

    When it's clear you're not going to make the playoffs, then you start giving more minutes to your younger players.

    That's my entire 100% point, and that's why I don't like the way Jim handled the situation.

    If the Pacers are above .500% and in the playoff hunt, then clearly you play to get in the playoffs. That's what I've said, and that's what others have said.

    I don't understand why we need to keep rehashing this.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I think we insult the fans more who attend by constantly playing players who we have no intention of keeping.

    But BillS & I have been down this road before. We just happen to disagree over fan reaction & expectation.
    Yeah, we're kind of on opposite sides of a middle line on this.

    I think if you have guys on your team who play better than other ones, why would you decide so soon that you have no intention of keeping them? Why would you decide that further development is of no benefit even if it means they might improve to the point where you can make a better trade using them?

    If you have guys that AREN'T better, then yes, sit them down. If you have guys that are pretty much the same, don't necessarily give the vet the advantage (though, as long as the young guy knows WHY, that might be part of the development process in and of itself).

    In specifics, I have agreed that some players got far more minutes than their talents deserved. It is why I think that, at some level, we are closer together than the discussions might seem to show.

    I personally think you insult the fans by not putting the best possible team on the floor. You try to work development into that process, but development does not take precedence over putting the best team on the floor TODAY. Otherwise, dump those players right now and then your developing guys ARE your best team to put on the floor.
    BillS

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  7. #130
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    What do you mean "how many games were you winning?"

    We were winning around 35 games. I don't need to talk hypotheticals, because my point is based on what did happened, and what I think should of happened.

    When it's clear you're not going to make the playoffs, then you start giving more minutes to your younger players.

    That's my entire 100% point, and that's why I don't like the way Jim handled the situation.

    If the Pacers are above .500% and in the playoff hunt, then clearly you play to get in the playoffs. That's what I've said, and that's what others have said.

    I don't understand why we need to keep rehashing this.
    I think one of our disconnects is that I tend to base things strategically - how do we handle overall situations - then see if the current action fits that strategy. That means, when I look at a specific (last year), I am trying to figure out if doing something different would have meant you were changing strategy or not. It is why I talk hypotheticals, because the strategy requires you to have at least some idea on when you will change tactics, and the only way to do that is to apply hypotheticals.

    It is a little confusing when you say you talk specifics, and then in your third and fifth paragraphs you make general statements that apply to the hypotheticals just as well as they apply to the specifics. Because you do that, I extrapolate to the hypotheticals because I think that is how one should evaluate an overall action plan. I (probably unfairly) assume you have done the same.

    That said, I reiterate this part of the quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I don't like the way Jim handled the situation.
    and say I absolutely agree based on the specific of last year. We would likely still disagree on the magnitude, mostly because I value winning at the end of a losing season as signaling hope for the future.

    Based on the specific of the year before, I don't know that I would agree for that year. As I said, I think you play the game before you and you really don't know that just because you lost the last few games by 2 points it means you'll lose the rest of your games by 2 points. That makes it hard to decide just how much giving a young guy more minutes (remember, we're still going on the assumption that the young guy is not as good as the vet) will hurt you.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I don't think anyone is talking hypotheticals, because we're saying what should have happened last year, and the year before that.

    You asked what we thought should have been done when they were losing but still in games late, and that's not a hypothetical, that was reality.

    Why should you continue to play your vets, even if you're losing games by 2, when you have no chance at making the playoffs? Once the playoffs are out of reach, you switch gears.

    I don't care if they've been losing by 2 or by 50. It's still a loss. And when you can't make the playoffs, it really doesn't matter anymore.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Why should you continue to play your vets, even if you're losing games by 2, when you have no chance at making the playoffs? Once the playoffs are out of reach, you switch gears.
    That's where we completely disagree, then. I don't think the season ends just because you missed the playoffs. There are still reasons to try to win.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Did I say you play to lose? No.

    I said you develop your younger players, instead of using the freaking beginning of the season to do so, like we are now doing with McRoberts.

    Instead of getting him significant minutes, when the games don't mean squat, we now have to try and do that from the get-go. How brilliant.

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  13. #134
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Wow, I had no idea when I started this thread yesterday morniong that it would take off as it did. You just never know. I was hesitant to start a thread on a topic that I thought we had beaten to death many times over.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Did I say you play to lose? No.
    So again, we have a disconnect, because I can't see in my mind how, if you don't have your best team on the floor, you are trying to win.

    The guys on the FLOOR may be trying to win this particular game, but the team as a whole isn't trying to win this particular game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I said you develop your younger players, instead of using the freaking beginning of the season to do so, like we are now doing with McRoberts.
    And another place where we'll just have to disagree. The beginning of the season (including preseason and training camp), after a summer of working on issues, when you have a team you can be pretty sure will be around for lots of games, is exactly the time when you work with your players.

    Of course, another disagreement is that I think Josh is actually capable of more after his summer than he was last spring, but that's another argument
    BillS

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So again, we have a disconnect, because I can't see in my mind how, if you don't have your best team on the floor, you are trying to win.

    The guys on the FLOOR may be trying to win this particular game, but the team as a whole isn't trying to win this particular game.
    Once the playoffs were out of reach, trying to win should not have meant trying to win that night. It should have meant trying to win this year, and making the playoffs this year and into the future.

    My opinion is, it was selfish of the coach to sacrifice future growth for the sake of his own employment which was probably safe anyway, but that's for another thread probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
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    And another place where we'll just have to disagree. The beginning of the season (including preseason and training camp), after a summer of working on issues, when you have a team you can be pretty sure will be around for lots of games, is exactly the time when you work with your players.

    Of course, another disagreement is that I think Josh is actually capable of more after his summer than he was last spring, but that's another argument
    Is Josh better this year after working his butt off all summer? I would hope so, otherwise he sure wasted a lot of time and effort. But do you not think he was capable of playing in games that were essentially garbage time at tip-off? Don't you think he would have been better prepared for the games this year that actually matter again?

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    My opinion is, it was selfish of the coach to sacrifice future growth for the sake of his own employment which was probably safe anyway, but that's for another thread probably.
    I don't think that's the reason, since he already had the extension. I would be more inclined to believe that I'm not the only one who believes in the value of continuing trying to field the best team more than simply putting young players on the floor because they are young.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Is Josh better this year after working his butt off all summer? I would hope so, otherwise he sure wasted a lot of time and effort. But do you not think he was capable of playing in games that were essentially garbage time at tip-off? Don't you think he would have been better prepared for the games this year that actually matter again?
    First, I really do think Josh should have gotten more time last year.

    Second, I don't think it would have done any more than solidified what he was already doing. I think what he is showing me after the summer is something he wasn't going to develop through playing time, and that is a more complete and rounded game.

    Third, I don't think there's any such thing as a regular season game that is essentially garbage time at tip-off.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    How can you say Josh should have gotten more minutes and then argue how JOb handled the situation was correct?

    That's talking about both sides of your mouth. He either deserved to play, or he didn't.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    That's where we completely disagree, then. I don't think the season ends just because you missed the playoffs. There are still reasons to try to win.
    WTF wat reason? i would rather lose at the end to get a better pick and delvope the young guys. But we are still playing 2 win with the young players.
    Last edited by pacer4ever; 10-15-2010 at 04:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    How can you say Josh should have gotten more minutes and then argue how JOb handled the situation was correct?

    That's talking about both sides of your mouth. He either deserved to play, or he didn't.
    Where did I say how JOB handled the situation was "correct"? I said it wasn't a disaster.

    We're talking about gray areas as if they were absolutes. If Josh got 5 more minutes of time for more games, I'd have been OK with that. That isn't the same as, say, giving him 20 minutes per game.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Hey Bill can I get you avatar?

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    You're saying that younger players shouldn't get more playing time when they're out of the playoff race because they're losing by close margins, but you think McRoberts should have gotten more time?

    I'm sorry, but McRoberts didn't go from getting DNP-CD's to being the starting PF because of the work he did this offseason. He didn't suddenly morph into this starting caliber player.

    He didn't get any shot at playing, and therefore couldn't play his way into the rotation. And when he did play, and played well, it was deemed "irrelevant."

    Now, suddenly, he's your starting 4!? It doesn't make sense. I try to stick by the common sense rule, and this fails it.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You're saying that younger players shouldn't get more playing time when they're out of the playoff race because they're losing by close margins, but you think McRoberts should have gotten more time?
    No. I'm saying that you don't sacrifice winning in order to develop young players. If there is time available, of course you develop your young players. I believe that there were minutes where Josh could have played last year that did not hurt the chances of winning. I also think Josh was a better player than some of the players that JOB put on the court - which, if you look, is a situation I DISTINCTLY stated did not fall in the scope of this argument.

    This thread is about winning vs. development, not about whether or not you do development at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm sorry, but McRoberts didn't go from getting DNP-CD's to being the starting PF because of the work he did this offseason. He didn't suddenly morph into this starting caliber player.

    He didn't get any shot at playing, and therefore couldn't play his way into the rotation. And when he did play, and played well, it was deemed "irrelevant."

    Now, suddenly, he's your starting 4!? It doesn't make sense. I try to stick by the common sense rule, and this fails it.
    OK, I really don't know how to answer this.

    I believe there was time available for Josh last year that did not impact the question of WINNING vs. development. Therefore, he should have gotten fewer DNP-CDs or more minutes in other games. That doesn't contradict anything I've said here.

    I think Josh is your starting 4 this year for 2 reasons. One is that he's the best of what we have left, not because he's "morphed" into a top 5 Power Forward. The second is essentially the reason why he's the best of what we have left - because he is a more well-rounded player than he was last year because of the time he spent focusing on his weaknesses over the summer.

    Neither of those has anything to do with whether I think JOB was correct in calling Josh "irrelevant" (I don't). We also haven't been talking about whether the only way to get into the rotation is to be put into the rotation - that's a whole 'nother thread.

    THIS thread is about whether you focus on winning or whether you focus on development. I believe you can focus on winning and still play the young guys, but if push comes to shove you focus on winning. As part of that, though, I believe there are places where young guys can develop. I think JOB didn't use those opportunities last year.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Wow... First of all, my apologies to BillS. I left at about 11 AM to pick up my granddaughter in Chicago and just returned. I've kind of left you out there all alone today.

    First of all... to make a point about Josh McRoberts. Those of you you are arguing to play the youngsters seem to be thinking "Golly Jeez. The coach is finally doing what he should have been doing all along, he's playing Josh to get additional experience for one of our younguns."

    You guys couldn't be more wrong! He's playing McRoberts not because he added bulk, strength and worked his butt off over the summer. And he sure as hell isn't starting McRoberts because he wants to give more experience to his young player. He's playing him because, at this time, he believes McRoberts to be the best performing PF on the team! And, if you recall what the coach said weeks ago, he echoed those thoughts when he stated that if the season started tomorrow, McRoberts would be his starting PF.

    So Since86, without Murphy on the team, with a lot of hard work, McRoberts DID suddenly become this starting caliber PF. I will admit that he would only be a backup on most NBA teams, but for us, at least right now, he is the best performing we have on the roster. Therefore, for us, one of the weaker teams, he IS a starting caliber PF.

    Last season, Josh's play in a since was irrelevant... because he had Murphy playing in front of him... and he had a coach that had far more appreciation for what Murphy was bringing to the court than McRoberts.

    As for playing to lose, I think it is ridiculous to read in any of our comments that any player on the court, whether a veteran or a youngster, is playing to lose. That's utter nonsense. Individuals do NOT play to lose. And, when they are on the court, the five players on the court, whether any synergy is present or not, are not playing to lose.

    However franchises can control game situations and actually play games not necessarily to lose, but certainly without any regard for winning. They do this through the game lineups and strategies that are employed by the coach.

    And I suppose that is where the crux of our disagreement lies. I believe it is possible to find minutes for all players that are dressed in your uniform. Not necessarily every game, but certainly averaged over several games. And, I believe that in a 48 minute game, especially in the first three quarters, it should be relatively easy to find some minutes for at least a couple of your non-starting younger players to enable you to evaluate their progress and talent and how it can best be leveraged to benefit your team.

    But when the fourth quarter starts, that's when you go with those players or the lineup that has performed best for you over the course of the game... more often than not, that would be your best players... those that started the game.

    It's funny really. I can remember that some of my biggest pet peaves in the past were scheduled substitutions to insert a lesser experienced player into the lineup. It used to happen to Reggie all the time at about the 8 minute mark of the first quarter. He could have been hitting everything he threw up and might have had 18 points already, but sure enough, his butt was going to the bench at the 8 minute mark, no matter how good his streak was. That always seemed counterproductive to building a bigger lead and even winning, if you ask me.

    I may be a bit idealistic, but to me sports and its competition are something that should be "pure". As a player, you play with integrity. That means you play your hardest and you play to win. As a 5-man lineup, same thing... play hard and to win. As a 12-man team... again same thing. You play hard and you play to win.

    But as a franchise, I think you must also have integrity. Your coach must determine his best lineups and best performing players/lineups during any particular game and play to win.

    So many of us fought this same issue last year when it came to the Colts. Most of us not only had a problem with spoiling a perfect season, but also with the integrity issue. They didn't play to lose; but they didn't play as though they cared about whether they won those last few games. As I recall, there were a lot of whizzed-off fans who wanted a refund for the last few home games. I think the same would be true of fans attending Pacer games. You don't play your best players; you aren't doing everything you can to win. And that surely must lead to fan alienation.
    Last edited by beast23; 10-15-2010 at 09:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    THIS thread is about whether you focus on winning or whether you focus on development. I believe you can focus on winning and still play the young guys, but if push comes to shove you focus on winning. As part of that, though, I believe there are places where young guys can develop. I think JOB didn't use those opportunities last year.
    I agree with the point you are trying to make. You try to win, and if that enables you to play younger players, that's great.

    But, I believe we disagree over one point. To me, this thread is about a lot more than whether to focus on development or winning.

    It is about INTEGRITY.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I think not playing to win and tanking the season sets a losing culture. We want a winning culture.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    I think not playing to win and tanking the season sets a losing culture. We want a winning culture.
    They haven't win anything in a long time, were is the winning culture you keep talking about?

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    They haven't win anything in a long time, were is the winning culture you keep talking about?
    Exactly, if we don't try to win we'll get depressed players. I don't want to go 0-15 like in New Jersey or in Boston.

    It seems to have hurt the development and confidence of their players.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Exactly, if we don't try to win we'll get depressed players. I don't want to go 0-15 like in New Jersey or in Boston.

    It seems to have hurt the development and confidence of their players.
    They been trying to win forever doing it the JOB way, do you really think that is going to change? they are depressed winning 5 games or 35 games either way they don't make it to the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I think you can be positive about a Pacers season even if they don't make the playoffs. I never expected the amount of talent on our roster to make the playoffs to begin with.

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