Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 150

Thread: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

  1. #51
    Member Speed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brownsburg
    Posts
    8,528

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    OK, I think everyone would agree with you. But how do you know that before the fact. How did you know two years ago that Josh would have helped the pacers win as much as a veteran would have.

    How do we know right now if Paul George playing 30 minutes every game would help the pacers win just as often as if Dunleavy played 30 minutes a game. if someone told me right now if George getting all of Mike's minutes will get the same team results as if Mike got all of Paul's minutes. I would say, OK, sit Mike and play George. But how do we know that.

    Once again sure it is easy two years from now to look back and complain, why did we even play Mike when George could be an allstar now if he had just played more his first two seasons. I'm sure next summer many of you will make that argument. Why did Mike play all those minutes he won't even be here in another year where as George might be one of our best players for years to come. Purpose of this thread to to see if anyone wants to go on record before the fact as opposed to after when it is easy
    Right, you never know the alternate reality, but you do know if you're losing at a good clip now. So the example about AJ and Earl the end of last year is a good one. Why play Earl the end of last year without giving AJ some of his minutes. We would have said that at the time, too.

    If they start losing at a good clip, I'll want PG to get as many of Dunleavy's minutes as possible. If they are in the hunt and winning decently I'll not make a peep.

    The problem I've had the last few years is no wins and no hope (young players). So I'm watching Luther Head, Stephen Grahm types in February, instead I needed to see Roy Hibbert getting more reps for good or bad. Either way, I'm watching a loss, most likely.

    I guess to finally answer the question, you don't know for sure it will be neglible, but you know what your doing now isn't working pretty readily.

    The alternate reality things always interesting to me. Should I get a Flu shot, should I not?

    Edit, just read Pecks post about JMac vs Murphy. Thats a good counter to my argument, without intending to be. Thats an alternate reality I don't think I personally could project, since it's night and day for style, experience, everything. Being honest, I would have been all for a traditional PF last year, but also, I didn't believe that player was JMac in any way, at the time.
    Last edited by Speed; 10-14-2010 at 12:17 PM.

  2. #52
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,102

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    OK, I think everyone would agree with you. But how do you know that before the fact. How did you know two years ago that Josh would have helped the pacers win as much as a veteran would have.
    2 years ago, maybe not, but last year we certainly saw early in the season when Murphy was out, that Josh was just as, if not more effective as a heavy minute guy. He played well in every game he got a chance, and then as soon as Murphy got back he was relegated back to the bench. Performance results did not equal playing time. The situation was the same with AJ Price, and even to a lesser extent Roy Hibbert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How do we know right now if Paul George playing 30 minutes every game would help the pacers win just as often as if Dunleavy played 30 minutes a game. if someone told me right now if George getting all of Mike's minutes will get the same team results as if Mike got all of Paul's minutes. I would say, OK, sit Mike and play George. But how do we know that.
    We don't know that. I agree. But just because we don't know if George is capable of handling all of Dunleavy's minutes, doesn't mean there is no reason to at least give him a chance to earn some of those minutes. There is no reason to just forget about a guy on the bench because "we just don't know if he can handle it." Find out if he can handle it. Dunleavy can't play 48 a night, I'm sure of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Once again sure it is easy two years from now to look back and complain, why did we even play Mike when George could be an allstar now if he had just played more his first two seasons. I'm sure next summer many of you will make that argument. Why did Mike play all those minutes he won't even be here in another year where as George might be one of our best players for years to come. Purpose of this thread to to see if anyone wants to go on record before the fact as opposed to after when it is easy
    You can put me on the record. Do I think that there is a chance we could contend for the playoffs this season? Absolutely. Do I think if we make it we have a chance to make any noise? Absolutely not. Even if it means a couple less losses, or even the lottery for that matter, I'd be in favor of getting guys like Paul George exposed to the rigors of the NBA season. I just don't think that George getting minutes will be too detrimental to the team's success.

  3. #53
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    11,603

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Right, you never know the alternate reality, but you do know if you're losing at a good clip now. So the example about AJ and Earl the end of last year is a good one. Why play Earl the end of last year without giving AJ some of his minutes. We would have said that at the time, too.

    If they start losing at a good clip, I'll want PG to get as many of Dunleavy's minutes as possible. If they are in the hunt and winning decently I'll not make a peep.

    At what point are you "losing at a good clip"? Starting the season 0-10? Dropping below .500 in January?

    Do you go by absolute record or by standings? If you are below .500 but still in the playoff hunt do you go for it or give it up? If you are over .500 but out of the playoffs do you chase the playoffs and/or the better record or do you give it up?

    We've seen too many seasons (including the 1993-1994 season) where significant periods of losing, even unto being below .500, occurred and yet teams pulled out and were competing by the end of the year.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How much better the Pacers got by playing Rasho,Flip and the rest of the old guys we got as one year rentals or trough trades? giving Rasho minutes made the team better in the long term? Are the Pacers better now for playing every game with old vets giving the young guys a winning attitude? My opinion is no they are not better.
    Would they have necessarily been better if you sit guys who were, in someone's opinion, the best guys to be on the floor? What do they learn?

    As I've said often, IF you think that those vets should not have been playing because the young guys were better than they were, then we really have no argument with one another. IF you think those vets should not have been playing simply because they were vets, we have an argument.

    In many cases, though, I think we're actually only quibbling over a few minutes. If those vets don't play as much as they did, would we have been better off? My opinion, certainly last season, is yes. If the vets play SIGNIFICANTLY less than they did, would we have been better off? There, I'm not so sure.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  4. #54
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    11,603

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But getting back to the main point of the argument (Josh vs. Troy) I see nothing that McRoberts has done in the pre-season that he did not do since December of last season. I would go so far as to say even the spring of the year before but Iíll just concede to last season. The difference is two fold. First he is getting solid consistent minutes and second our style of play has changed.

    Is he stronger? Maybe but not that much. Does he know the system better? Probably but again weíve changed somewhat how the system works so he is learning new again.

    So then it boils down to why now vs. then. Anybody who thinks itís because Josh has greatly improved is just deluding themselves, if Troy were here he would still be starting and we would still have the same argument as last season.
    I've only seen one game with my own eyes, so I am not going to claim this as fact by any means.

    However, I think Josh is quite different from last year. I think he is more aware of what is going on around him, more able to stay focused from play to play, and I think his shooting from all areas has improved because of the shooting work he put in this summer that so many people disapprove of.

    To me, he seems a much more mature and ready player than he was last year, and not all of it would have come had he got significant minutes.

    I know some (Seth) will disagree violently, and that's fine - but this is my opinion and yelling at me isn't going to change it.

    On your last sentence, though, I think we need to stop falling into the trap of saying the if Murphy was here Josh would still be on the bench and treating it as if Troy IS here and Josh IS sitting on the bench. It isn't a valid fact to use as a point of argument, especially in a "Josh hasn't changed that much and we know that because Troy would be starting over him if he were still here" sense.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  5. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to BillS For This Useful Post:


  6. #55
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,090

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I've only seen one game with my own eyes, so I am not going to claim this as fact by any means.

    However, I think Josh is quite different from last year. I think he is more aware of what is going on around him, more able to stay focused from play to play, and I think his shooting from all areas has improved because of the shooting work he put in this summer that so many people disapprove of.

    To me, he seems a much more mature and ready player than he was last year, and not all of it would have come had he got significant minutes.

    And outside of shooting how do you get better in those other two areas?

    Practicing? I think not.

    I think Speed(?) mentioned about how some are viewing Rolle like he's guessing Atlanta fans viewed Solo. Who has said anything about Rolle? Who honestly expects Rolle to get significant minutes? I know I don't. He doesn't even have a spot on the roster right now. Or have I missed something?

    Peck nails it, and it's really not even about Murphy. It's about playing Mike Dunleavy and DJones at the 4 while Josh sits there with his hand on his chin. It was stupid then, and it's stupid now.

    If Rush comes out and plays extremely well, and you're splitting time with him and Mike at the 2, if there turns out to be very limited minutes for Paul I can't object to that.

    Now if Rush is the same Rush, then I expect to see Paul in the game more.

    I don't want to hear about how Lance is our best PG in practice, and then never see him in a game until Darren or AJ is out with an injury. If he's playing better than either one of them, then he needs to play during games. Shut your mouth with IRRELEVANT praise if it's not the truth. Don't, basically, lie to your fan base talking about how great he is. That's only going to **** us off when he doesn't get to play.

    But it's nothing new. Jim came in to Indy thumping his chest about how if you didn't practice you didn't play, and then we find out that JO isn't practicing but playing as many minutes as he can handle.


    My argument is pretty simple. Play the best performers in practice. Like he should have done with AJ last year. Don't play players completely out of position when you have capable players at that position sitting on the bench.

    How hard is it to do those two things?

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:


  8. #56

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    This is the NBA, the best league in the world. Nothing should be "given" to anyone. If the rooks want to play, make them earn their minutes by beating the vets in practice. If they can't do that, then they don't deserve to be out there on game day.

    You forge steel with fire and a hammer, not with milk and cookies.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to bphil For This Useful Post:


  10. #57
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,626

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I've only seen one game with my own eyes, so I am not going to claim this as fact by any means.

    However, I think Josh is quite different from last year. I think he is more aware of what is going on around him, more able to stay focused from play to play, and I think his shooting from all areas has improved because of the shooting work he put in this summer that so many people disapprove of.

    To me, he seems a much more mature and ready player than he was last year, and not all of it would have come had he got significant minutes.

    I know some (Seth) will disagree violently, and that's fine - but this is my opinion and yelling at me isn't going to change it.

    On your last sentence, though, I think we need to stop falling into the trap of saying the if Murphy was here Josh would still be on the bench and treating it as if Troy IS here and Josh IS sitting on the bench. It isn't a valid fact to use as a point of argument, especially in a "Josh hasn't changed that much and we know that because Troy would be starting over him if he were still here" sense.
    Hmmmmm..... interesting concept. Kind of like when people don't like O'Brien via opinion we shouldn't have thread after thread clogged up with people brow beating them into something they aren't going to change their minds on either. I like the way you think.

    As to your last paragraph, I honestly am to stupid to really understand what you are saying.

    If your point is that if all things were the same and Troy was still here that Josh would be starting & Troy would be coming off of the bench or even splitting min. between the two with Troy still starting I'll just say that we will agree to disagree.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Peck For This Useful Post:


  12. #58
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,626

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by bphil View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    This is the NBA, the best league in the world. Nothing should be "given" to anyone. If the rooks want to play, make them earn their minutes by beating the vets in practice. If they can't do that, then they don't deserve to be out there on game day.

    You forge steel with fire and a hammer, not with milk and cookies.
    Ok, this guy has actually summed up all of the arguments on both sides in a clear and concise written statement of fact.

    There is nothing in this post that either side can really disagree with, at least I would hope.

    Hell in fact I think this is a post of the year candidate right now.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  13. #59
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Wow this thread got big in a hurry. I'll post my thoughts after just reading UB's first post, then I'll dive in to the replies.

    For me, I only ask that if a veteran player doesn't appear to be earning his spot in the rotation, that a young guy gets a chance to try that role on for size for a while. Then if the rookie is struggling as much or more than the vet, go back to the vet for a while, and repeat.

    It looks right now like Posey is going to keep either Rush or George out of the rotation once Rush is no longer suspended. Is he's playing well, I can live with that, but if he keeps looking old and slow and not doing a whole hell of a lot, I'd prefer Rush or George to backup Danny instead.

    If Jeff is struggling, eventually give either Solo or Rolle a look there (assuming either or both is on the team in a month). Actually if Jeff struggles, we're probably screwed because I don't think much of Jones right now, and Rolle is probably too raw still. But I'd still give them a chance if Jeff isn't doing well.

    Otherwise, I look at the backup 1. It's going to probably be TJ or AJ, and probably not Lance unless Lance just explodes offensively, I guess. We all know TJ isn't part of our future plans, we seem to all agree AJ is playing well already, so just leave AJ in that role, please. If for some reason AJ bottoms out, then give TJ or Lance a look, but otherwise, we need to roll with DC and AJ at the 1.

    Lastly, if we do get to where a veteran isn't playing well but his young counterpart is, please don't put the vet back in just for the sake of putting the vet back in. Leave the youngling in there as long as he's producing fairly well.

  14. #60

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    If Jim keeps the rotation he has right now, I'd be pretty happy.

    We have
    Collison/AJ
    Dun/George
    Granger/Posey
    Josh/Hans
    Roy/Foster

    The only change I'd make is to exchange Posey for Rush. Rush is better than him, even at Rush's worst. It's really not even a question over who should play.

    In this lineup, there is a good combination of competent vets (Dun and Foster and obviously Granger) and young guys that'll help us win.

    With AJ/Ford. Look. AJ's better than him. AJ's played as well as anyone in the preseason (if not better) And the Pacers plan to keep AJ and want to get rid of Ford. It's pretty obvious who should play. The only possibility is playing Ford to up his trade value, but lets be realistic here. The only teams that are going to want Ford, are the ones that want him for his contract.

    With Hans and George, I think that is developmental minutes, but I also don't think it'll hurt the team.

    With Lance and Magnum, I don't think Lance is ready (and don't know if he'll be here) and I think Tyler is better than Magnum, and they are both young guys so I'd give the minutes to Tyler.

    That being said, if at about Febuary, we are CLEARLY out of the playoffs, you gotta start giving them minutes. Take away Dun's and Fosters minutes, and who cares what our record will be, Magnum and Lance should get some time. (That doesn't mean thirty minutes..but 15 would be nice)

    And last season, I'm sorry, people were frustrated for many reasons.

    For one, Price was, without argument a better PG option than Ford, and arguably a better option than Watson. (And it wasn't arguable if you took into consideration how he would have been had we played him twenty minutes a game last season)

    For two, whether you thought Josh was ready or not, he was most certainly a better PF option, whether we were trying to win or developing players, than DJones or Dunleavy at the PF spot.

    For three, Hibbert was always a better option than Murphy at the center position.

    It was a combination of "look, they're better AND they actually have a shot of being part of the future core."

    So yea, I think, once you're clearly out of the playoffs you give the younger guys the playing time. But I also think that playing young guys vs. playing vets doesn't necessarily mean it's detrimnetal to wins and losses. We'll win more games if we play Price instead of Ford or Rush instead of Posey or let Josh start instead of Foster ect.. And it also helps the team's future. But I don't have as big of a problem with letting Lance, Solo, and Magnum be introduced to the NBA game slowly.

  15. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Sookie For This Useful Post:


  16. #61
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,629

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I'll provide the same answer to this question that I provide everytime ( during this Playoff drought ) when this question comes up:

    Put the best lineup ( regardless of who the Player is...vet or rookie ) that we can to win games simply to make the Playoffs. But when ( and if ) we are eliminated from making the Playoffs, I want to see a lineups that include maximum playing time for DC/BRush/Granger/Hansbrough/Hibbert/George/AJ/Magnum/Lance/McRoberts while minimizing the # of minutes for TJ/Dunleavy/Foster. The only vets that I would possibly include in the regular rotation ( but with minimal minutes ) is Posey and Inferno as we are stuck with him for 2 seasons.

    We are not a Team like the TWolves or Kings where we are flush with very young talent in "rebuilding" mode....we are a Team that is a mixture of vets and young Players that should have enough talent to be considered a "Playoff Bubble" team.

    Before we are bounced from the Playoff picture, it is critical to win games to make the Playoffs. Having a winning environment and Playoff Experience for a young Team is critical to properly develop them....even if it means losing in 4 blowout games against the Heat. But the second that we are eliminated from any Playoff hopes, I think it is more important to develop the Players and build Team Chemistry among the players that will likely be the future core of this Team. Add in ( as Seth will point out ) that we would need to properly evaluate Players like Magnum ( much like what we should have done with McRoberts a season or two ago ) to see if they are worth keeping for the long term.

    BTW...assuming that PG and Lance aren't "blowing JO'B away" ( a la Iggy as a rookie when JO'B was in Philly ) and therefore does not truly deserve regular rotation minutes....I have ZERO problem if PG and Lance play very limited minutes during the season when there is still a chance that the Team is trying to make the Playoffs. But once we''re out...I want to see them playing regular minutes.
    Last edited by CableKC; 10-14-2010 at 01:27 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  17. #62
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    33
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Nice sookie

  18. #63

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I think a very important point where I will give JOB credit is he is always playing to win the games first. in the past years the Pacers are right outside the playoff race. He wants to get them to the playoffs so he is playing the vets because he thinks that gives him the best chance to win. Usually until the last week of the season the Pacers are usually still in the thick of it. Until the X shows up on the standings next to their name he will play to win as any coach should. I think the starting lineup that has been mentioned is a good one. Hibbert is still a young guy in my opion, so is Collison so do we need to start all rookies or second year players for this to work? Save that for D league.
    JOB is a silly man

  19. #64
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,767

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    I don't want to hear about how Lance is our best PG in practice, and then never see him in a game until Darren or AJ is out with an injury. If he's playing better than either one of them, then he needs to play during games. Shut your mouth with IRRELEVANT praise if it's not the truth. Don't, basically, lie to your fan base talking about how great he is. That's only going to **** us off when he doesn't get to play.

    But it's nothing new. Jim came in to Indy thumping his chest about how if you didn't practice you didn't play, and then we find out that JO isn't practicing but playing as many minutes as he can handle.


    My argument is pretty simple. Play the best performers in practice. Like he should have done with AJ last year. Don't play players completely out of position when you have capable players at that position sitting on the bench.

    How hard is it to do those two things?

    In theory, playing whoever plays best in practice sounds good. But is that realistic? I think in training camp OK it might be. But compare Danny playing 35 minutes every game vs lets say Paul George who is aveaging 10 minutes per game playing in about half the game - for sake of discussion stay with me.

    OK, so in mid January George starts to outplay Danny in practice - what do you do? also what factors are causing george to outplay him. Is george getting better or is the season wearing Danny down. Unfair to compare a starter getting 35 minutes every game to a bench player not getting many minutes - makes sense the bench player would have the energy to practice and outplay the starter in practice. But that doesn't mean they will play better in games.

    So if in 2 months we hear that Lance is outplaying Collision in practice, i say who cares, good for lance, but Collision is tired from playing 35 minutes a night in heated competition
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 10-14-2010 at 01:59 PM.

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Unclebuck For This Useful Post:


  21. #65
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,629

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If Jim keeps the rotation he has right now, I'd be pretty happy.

    We have
    Collison/AJ
    Dun/George
    Granger/Posey
    Josh/Hans
    Roy/Foster

    The only change I'd make is to exchange Posey for Rush. Rush is better than him, even at Rush's worst. It's really not even a question over who should play.
    My guess is that we'd probably go with a tighter 8-9 man rotation starting with:

    Collison
    Dunleavy
    Granger
    McRoberts
    Hibbert

    with

    1 ) AJ or TJ backing up Collison
    2 ) Posey or BRush acking up both Dunleavy and Granger ( with BRush getting the bulk of the backup SG/SF minutes )
    3 ) Foster, Solo and Hansbrough backing up both McRoberts and Hibbert ( where Foster gets the majority of the Backup PF/C minutes with Solo and Hansbrough getting minutes here and there )

    Sorry...but I don't think that PG/Lance/Magnum will get signifcant minutes this season when it matters.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  22. #66

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In theory, playing whoever plays best in practice sounds good. But is it realiistic for a bench player who gets very
    Practice....we talkin about practice.........practice?
    JOB is a silly man

  23. #67
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    11,603

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And outside of shooting how do you get better in those other two areas?
    I think you'd be surprised at how much you can get better at this by being in a place where you can see the whole court and watch what is going on everywhere, without the additional distractions of being on the floor or worrying about what you will do when you get on the floor.

    Then, there is a matter of it clicking. For some players it seems to click right away, for others it takes longer.

    And finally, you need to be well-rounded enough to give yourself the space to do some of the things you have seen on the court while you were watching. We wanted Josh to get more minutes last year for the things he was doing, but the improvement this year has come as much because he is contributing in each area rather than being a specialist body on the floor. I really don't think he was capable of that last year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Peck nails it, and it's really not even about Murphy. It's about playing Mike Dunleavy and DJones at the 4 while Josh sits there with his hand on his chin. It was stupid then, and it's stupid now.
    And I don't disagree with this. As I said, if the discussion is about the degree to which you play some vets over young guys, I have little argument with it, since I think there were some great opportunities to get guys playing time last year. I don't think that was the case two years ago, though, which is why I don't like it being lumped in as a "JOB has done it every year even though we were getting blown out of games" kind of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't want to hear about how Lance is our best PG in practice, and then never see him in a game until Darren or AJ is out with an injury. If he's playing better than either one of them, then he needs to play during games. Shut your mouth with IRRELEVANT praise if it's not the truth. Don't, basically, lie to your fan base talking about how great he is. That's only going to **** us off when he doesn't get to play.
    I think this may be one of the bigger issues with JOB. He communicates so much more than RC did that I suspect we think what he says is everything he has to say. Part of that is his fault, he wants to praise guys so he doesn't get very specific and throws around superlatives.

    I suspect in every case what he was saying was that (player-we-think-should-play-more) was great or the best at some things but inadequate in other things. However, he gets caught up in the superlative, tells us, we extrapolate it, and then even if he mentions the negatives later we think something to the effect of, "well, you just made those up to justify the playing time, otherwise you would have told us before."

    I can't point to anything specific other than the team keeps coming back dfrom funks rather than letting the funk run to the end of the season, but I think JOB communicates better to the players than he does to us. Which, given the choice, I would take over the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If your point is that if all things were the same and Troy was still here that Josh would be starting & Troy would be coming off of the bench or even splitting min. between the two with Troy still starting I'll just say that we will agree to disagree.
    No, I think that is probable as well. What I'm saying is that it is really irrelevant to the question of whether Josh has gotten better over the summer and irrelevant to the ability or lack thereof of Jim to manage this team as it stands. We need to let what is happening stand or fall on its own merits rather than comparing it to a "what-if" as if we had facts to back it up. For all we know, JOB was visited by the ghost of Dale Davis the night before training camp and has completely reformed.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  24. #68
    Member Speed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brownsburg
    Posts
    8,528

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I think PG is you're 3rd best wing right now at 20, truthfully.

    I think he'll probably hit a wall, since he's been non stop since being drafted. However, I don't think Brandon, Posey, DJones, or Lance are as good all around as PG.

    He's good enough defensively to play now and he seems to improve almost daily. He's not timid ala BRush, he's not limited like DJones.

    When he was drafted I thought this was a watch and learn year, I don't now. I think he'll play as the first wing off the bench for almost the whole season and should.

    Only thing that would maybe change this is if a light bulb goes on for Brandon, I don't see that happening.

    I almost think he transcends this discussion because he'll earn his way on the court hands down, by being good enough, but also by your other options.
    Last edited by Speed; 10-14-2010 at 01:53 PM.

  25. #69
    Member Trophy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    8,556

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I really like what we have going into the season.

    This is a pretty good and balanced rotation.

    PG Collison/Price
    SG Dun/Rush (George or Posey)
    SF Granger/George
    PF McBob/Hansbrough
    C Hibbert/Foster

    We have a PG who has great leadership in Darren.

    Mike looks like his regular self again playing SG.

    Danny's the leader of the team and can do a little bit of everything especially score.

    Josh and Tyler are 2 big men who are tough offensively and can both get to the line or fly in for an open dunk plus can shoot outside of the paint. Their man-to-man defense is really good and based on the games Tyler's appeared in, he's really good with staying on the opposing player with the ball.

    Roy is a hardworking center who does everything he can to improve himself. He's a powerful big man offensively by dunking and scoring in the post and defensively, he can block a handful of shots.

    Plus we have a bunch of young guys and some veterans as backups.

    So there's no reason to finish with a record below .500 and/or miss the playoffs even with JOB coaching.

  26. #70
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In a Gym
    Age
    21
    Posts
    16,859
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think PG is you're 3rd best wing right now at 20, truthfully.

    I think he'll probably hit a wall, since he's been non stop since being drafted. However, I don't think Brandon, Posey, DJones, or Lance are as good all around as PG.

    He's good enough defensively to play now and he seems to improve almost daily. He's not timid ala BRush, he's not limited like DJones.

    When he was drafted I thought this was a watch and learn year, I don't now. I think he'll play as the first wing off the bench for almost the whole season and should.

    Only thing that would maybe change this is if a light bulb goes on for Brandon, I don't see that happening.

    I almost think he transcends this discussion because he'll earn his way on the court hands down, by being good enough, but also by your other options.
    That is what i think too. but JOB wont do it he will have Brush and DUN over him. I wish he would be at least the 6th man playing 25-30 mins a night. I want him to start so he can run with DC and DG33 and Jmac.

  27. #71
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,090

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think you'd be surprised at how much you can get better at this by being in a place where you can see the whole court and watch what is going on everywhere, without the additional distractions of being on the floor or worrying about what you will do when you get on the floor.

    Then, there is a matter of it clicking. For some players it seems to click right away, for others it takes longer.

    And finally, you need to be well-rounded enough to give yourself the space to do some of the things you have seen on the court while you were watching. We wanted Josh to get more minutes last year for the things he was doing, but the improvement this year has come as much because he is contributing in each area rather than being a specialist body on the floor. I really don't think he was capable of that last year.
    While all that's true, watching it and actually DOING it are two completely different things.

    We have a lot of arm-chair coaches on this forum, but I would bet if you got some of them on a basketball floor in live action, they would be lost. It's easy to sit back and dissect something from afar, rather than doing it real time while you have to concentrate on the ball, your man, and what the other players are doing as well.

    It's like an offensive set. We can run it a thousand times in practice without a hitch, but break it out in a game and the whole thing breaks down. It's the same concept.

    Sure, you get your initial knowledge from watching but you get the other half, and I do mean half, from actually playing.

    It's not only like that in basketball, but any sport.

    NBA players aren't freaks like we tend to believe. They aren't doing anything that thousands and thousands of non-NBA players can't do. They just happen to be bigger, faster, and stronger than the rest of us. Adjusting to that is what takes time. Whether it's a college player coming out of HS, he was usually the best player on the floor. He was the biggest, strongest, fastest. Now that's not the case for most players. Same with college players going to the NBA.

    Sure Josh learns by watching, but until he actually becomes comfortable with the speed, size, and strength of his opponents, and his teammates, it doesn't mean a whole lot.

    Knowing what to do, and being able to do it are two completely different things, and you can't find out if you are able to do it without stepping on the court when it matters.

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:


  29. #72
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Age
    30
    Posts
    4,580

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I think it's possible that there is a happy medium out there that allows for both. I just with JOB would adjust when things clearly aren't working. I would rather see Rolle, Hansbrough, Rush, and Stephenson, get minutes over Solomon Jones, Dahntay, Jeff, TJ, and definately over Posey. There was some stat I read last night where our backup (not josh or roy) power forward / center positions combined went 1 - 6 from the field, and had some turnovers and fouls to go along with that ugly stat. I think with guys like Posey and Jeff they pretty much are what they are whereas maybe if ya give Stephenson and Rolle some burn, and i'm not talking starter minutes just give them 10 - 12 minutes a night put in a backup role. Then maybe just maybe you'll end up with a better overall product. That's what I don't understand with JOB it seems like there can be no grey areas. Saying things like "i'm not going to risk wins for player development." is horribly short sighted and stubborn.

  30. #73
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    11,603

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Knowing what to do, and being able to do it are two completely different things, and you can't find out if you are able to do it without stepping on the court when it matters.
    Again, I don't disagree with this. The question is at what point do you put the guy on the floor for major minutes and hope he figures it out? In some cases you have no choice, but in cases where you do have a choice you want to have him get out there, show the problems, bring him back, show him those problems, and do it again. Otherwise you run the risk of having him get out there, not work out the problem, and develop a bad habit or lose confidence.

    I believe that I see enough of a difference between the last game that I saw Josh play last season and the first game I saw this season to think that something more than just getting on the floor for more minutes has clicked. Obviously, I can't be sure (I've slept since then), but it is what I think.

    Now, would it have clicked in midseason if he'd gotten more minutes? I don't know, it is possible. I also think there were some combinations on the floor that should have been given to Josh, but I don't think it hampered him and may in fact - if we assume JOB communicated with him what he wasn't communicating to us - have helped him figure out what to work on over the summer so he could come out like this.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  31. #74
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,090

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Okay, we're agreeing on the simple points, but you've referrenced midseason twice, so I'll go with it.

    Which do you prefer, letting him get minutes midseason when Tyler went out or letting Dunleavy and DJones get the minutes?

    Obviously everyone knows my preference.

    This is the problem I'm having with you and UB, mostly you. We agree on what should happen, but when we point out that it didn't happen the way both of us agree on, I get told excuses on why Jim didn't do it.

    UB can say that he thinks Jim needs to go after this season, trying to sneak it in, but still won't come out and say WHY he thinks so. You can't defend the man each and every time with excuse after excuse but agree that he needs to find another job.

    He's either doing a good job and needs to stay, or he isn't. I think you guys are trying to have it both ways.

    And I think UB is doing it now so much just because he's been digging the hole beside Jim's for so long, he might as well lay in it. It's just easier than admitting Jim screwed up.

  32. #75
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,626

    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    No, I think that is probable as well. What I'm saying is that it is really irrelevant to the question of whether Josh has gotten better over the summer and irrelevant to the ability or lack thereof of Jim to manage this team as it stands. We need to let what is happening stand or fall on its own merits rather than comparing it to a "what-if" as if we had facts to back it up. For all we know, JOB was visited by the ghost of Dale Davis the night before training camp and has completely reformed.
    Ok, if that is the case then that is perfectly logical & I don't disagree with any of it.

    I am certain Josh has gotten better, just as Roy and others have, by working on his game.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Similar Threads

  1. Hibbert developing triple-double skills
    By tsm612 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 03-12-2010, 07:15 PM
  2. Complete Game 2 Coverage From The Detroit News & Detroit Free Press
    By obnoxiousmodesty in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-24-2004, 11:21 AM
  3. Extensive game 3 coverage from the Boston Globe.
    By Will Galen in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-24-2004, 11:37 AM
  4. If those ESPN guys only did a little research
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 03-11-2004, 05:39 PM
  5. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-16-2004, 10:42 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •