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Thread: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Yes I know we have discussed this topic what seems like everyday for years. But perhaps this might be a little different take on the topic.

    I get frustrated with the argument I hear often when many of you (most of you) suggest that the Pacers team would be better now had the younger players gotten more time the past 2 or 3 seasons. That makes a lot of sense, and how could anyone argue with that. It is true if Josh had been playing 35 minutes a game for 2 seasons he would be better than he currently is. How much better, I don't know, we will never know.

    The flip side is that sometimes players need to develop at their on speed. Maybe throwing Josh out there two seasons ago 35 minutes per game when he wasn't ready might have hurt his development - who really knows, I don't. Another offshoot of this is that for most younger players they develop perhaps as much during the offseason as they do during the season - reasoning is in the summer they can really work on their game and their bodies without having to worry about "winning games"

    OK with that as the intro, what I really want to discuss (before the season starts) is which players do you want to see developed. I get very frustrated when many of you suggest after the fact, that we should have developed the younger guys because "we knew the team wasn't going to be any good". My question is, when do we know the team isn't going to be any good. Do we know right now this years team isn't going to be any good?

    We know if George, Lance, Magnum are all played 30 minutes every game this season - those three guys will be better in March and April this season and for next season. So before the season starts anyone willing to go on record and suggest they need to get big minutes and if that hurts our chance to win games - so be it.

    Bottom-line I don't want to hear next summer you complain about how the young guys should have been developed if you aren't willing (before the season) to sacrifice wins now for the future and and if you do want the younger players developed then I don't want to hear you complain about us not making the playoffs.

    it seems to me for about 3 seasons now many of you have had it both ways. You want the team to win, but then after the fact you complain about how the young guys weren't developed. You wait until midseason and seemingly suggest that you knew all along the team was going to stink and look how dumb can the pacers be they should have been developing the young guys all along.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 10-14-2010 at 10:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I been saying for years now that they should be developing the guys by giving them playing time, we know about the three years rebuilding procces, why not make it two years? at this moment I don't care about winning but give the young guys enough
    Playing time so they can help the team next year.

    By the way I don't want to see Posey,Foster,Solo and Dun taking minutes from those guys either, maybe a max of 15 min unless somebody gets hurt.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I been saying for years now that they should be developing the guys by giving them playing time, we know about the three years rebuilding procces, why not make it two years? at this moment I don't care about winning but give the young guys enough
    Playing time so they can help the team next year.

    By the way I don't want to see Posey,Foster,Solo and Dun taking minutes from those guys either, maybe a max of 15 min unless somebody gets hurt.
    Ok, then just to clarify - you would be fine with 22 wins (for example or maybe even fewer wins) if the younger guys get the majority of the playing time. Which players do you want getting the majority of the minutes then

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    More PT is always preferable when it comes to developing players. This isn't the NFL, where you might get Cutler'd and you start hearing footsteps.

    Of course, this allows me to pull my favorite dead horse out of the closet and beat on it some more. There's a perfect compromise between winning and developing players. It's about a hundred miles straight up I-69. But noooo, it's much more important for young players to sit and watch Jimmy's genius at work then actually get out on a court. Might as well be sitting in a classroom listening to a lecture on basketball theory for all the good it does.



    Seriously, if we keep Lance and we don't send him up, TPTB are hopeless.

    :

    Alright, now that I got that out, let's talk about the real world where Ft. Wayne apparently doesn't exist. Though not by design, Jimmy is being forced to play McRelevant simply due to the lack of options. I'd sure like to see Rolle getting Jeff's minutes, as well, but that'll depend on how the roster shakes out.

    Overall, we've got an outside shot of making the playoffs, and we should try for it. Regardless of if Mike's gonna be here next year, I think he's in a better position to help us do that than PG. Now, if the season falls apart, which it may very well do, you've got two options. Either showcase Mike for a trade, or start feeding the kids minutes. But if we're 10 games out, there's no point in playing guys who simply aren't going to be here next year. But we may very well need a different coach before that'd happen.
    Last edited by Kegboy; 10-14-2010 at 09:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The flip side is that sometimes players need to develop at their on speed.
    I think this is a crucial point. Maybe cooking is a useful analogy: If a recipe calls for a dish to bake for 30 minutes at 350 degrees, you can play around with the settings (e.g., 20 minutes at 425), but it may take a lot of trial and error and you still may not precisely replicate the finished product. Moreover, for many dishes, nuking simply is not an option.

    The point is that we have several players who simply may need more development time than just this coming regular season to out-produce our veterans for 10+ minutes a game toward a playoff effort. Acknowledging this doesn't imply that we should shelve them altogether this season. Once in a while, things seem to come together quickly for a player, but the vast majority of the time, unless one of them makes extraordinary progress in practice and in limited minutes, we should be at peace with the idea that they still need to "bake" for a while.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Yes I know we have discussed this topic what seems like everyday for years. But perhaps this might be a little different take on the topic.

    I get frustrated with the argument I hear often when many of you (most of you) suggest that the Pacers team would be better now had the younger players gotten more time the past 2 or 3 seasons. That makes a lot of sense, and how could anyone argue with that. It is true if Josh had been playing 35 minutes a game for 2 seasons he would be better than he currently is. How much better, I don't know, we will never know.

    The flip side is that sometimes players need to develop at their on speed. Maybe throwing Josh out there two seasons ago 35 minutes per game when he wasn't ready might have hurt his development - who really knows, I don't. Another offshoot of this is that for most younger players they develop perhaps as much during the offseason as they do during the season - reasoning is in the summer they can really work on their game and their bodies without having to worry about "winning games"

    OK with that as the intro, what I really want to discuss (before the season starts) is which players do you want to see developed. I get very frustrated when many of you suggest after the fact, that we should have developed the younger guys because we knew the team wasn't going to be any good. My question is, when do we know the team isn't going to be any good. Do we know that know?

    We know if George, Lance, Magnum are all played 30 minutes every game this season - those three guys will be better in March and April this season and for next season. So before the season starts anyone willing to go on record and suggest they need to get big minutes and if that hurts our chance to win game - so be it.

    Bottom-line I don't want to hear all next summer you complain about how the young guys should have been developed if you aren't willing (before the season) to sacrifice wins now for the future and I don't want to hear you complain about us not making the playoffs.

    it seems to me for about 3 seasons now many of you have had it both ways. You want the team to win, but then after the fact complain about how the young guys weren't developed. You wait until midseason and seemingly suggest that you knew all along the team was going to stink and look how dumb can the pacers be they should have been developing the young guys all along.
    It appears that Roy agrees with you UB.

    http://beta.indystar.com/article/201...ail-to-surface

    Mike Wells
    Indystar


    In a perfect world, everybody would play, but if we want to win, we all need to be tied in together, and the best way to do that is to have the most experienced guys out there," starting center Roy Hibbert said. "Once in a while, you sprinkle in a young or new guy in there, but the core guys need to be on the court for us to win. We can't go five in and five out."
    ....
    Last edited by WhackoJacko; 10-14-2010 at 09:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Ok, then just to clarify - you would be fine with 22 wins (for example or maybe even fewer wins) if the younger guys get the majority of the playing time. Which players do you want getting the majority of the minutes then
    I might surprise you with this answer but If JOB was developing the young guys by giving them playing time and not playing the old players that much I wouldn't be asking for his head(I think many guys here feel the same way)

    If I was the pacers I'll be starting Dc,Rush,Granger,Mcbob and Hibbert(this also means to play them the most minutes and have them at the end of the game) and I would bring of the bench AJ,PG,Dun,Hans and Rolle, I understand Lance not playing much because the Pacers have way to many wing players, if they win 30+ games good if they win 15 to 20 games fine with me either way they are not making the playoffs but at least we would know what we have and not only that the other teams in the NBA would also know what we have in the case the pacers ever want to make a trade.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    i really can't decide. i wanna see young guys develop, but on the other hand i'm sick of losing.

    the best thing i can do right now is hoping(or dreaming) winning will come with young guys getting lots of playing time.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    A bunch of factors here, I think. Historically they've drafted guys who were supposed to be NBA ready, so I'd expect them to be able to handle the mental part of travelling, being suddenly rich, all the catchings of fame really. So, I guess I'd expect them to play. Arguably their bodies are more mature, their minds are more right, they'd benefit most from the playing time. I think they did this with BRush, it didn't work really, but the idea was right. I think this was more from necessity and lack of option than just developing him. I think for Roy they could have done this better, but you know looking at Roy now it's hard to argue it WASN'T the right thing to do, honestly.

    The other side of this is Lance Stephenson, he just turned 20, his body is ready, his game is not. He has shown he needs to get his mind right, his house in order from a man standpoint let alone a player. I still think he should play though, not all year, not all game, but he needs a taste to hammer home how important this all is for him and what he needs to work on. This year is a huge test for him mentally, I think he'll learn alot about himself and the organization about him.

    Bottom line is this. My biggest beef was playing vets, who weren't in the long term plans, ahead of younger guys - who were. On top of that, I didn't feel like there was a drop off to playing the youngsters, so it became very frustrating for me as a fan.

    So with all that said, I'm okay with Lance playing sporadically, Magnum not at all. But I want Paul George to play quite a bit, to learn, plus I think he's almost already what we hope BRush would be.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Both. Do what it takes to win the most games we can, while developing the young guys to carry it even further. I think, as much as anything, playoff experience will stir up a hunger for success like nothing else.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Most of our core lineup is young, so they can play and devlop. As for the rookies, George will have to compete with B.Rush for the backup first wing in spot. He could get around 15 minutes a night if he plays well. Tyler will get his time. Lance and Magnum, if they are both still on the team might be hurting for playing time, but they might need a year to devlop anyway.

    So, we can do both, but we have to try and win now. This city is sick of the pacers sucking. It would mean a lot if we have a winning record and make the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I disagree. If you throw rookies out there to early and put pressure on them they do not always pan out. Confidence plays a large role in this game and if you fail over and over again all game long you will eventually just think you are that type of player.

    Example. Josh is bigger and stronger this year. He can finally defend in the post and bang with the boys. 12 months ago I do not think this could of been possible. I think he finally looks like a 3rd year player instead of a robot out there.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I'd put Paul George and Tyler Hanbrough at the top of the list of players who need developmental minutes. McRoberts and Price can already earn minutes with the way they play (on this team, if not on better teams), and the other young guys (Stephenson, Rolle) can wait.

    I don't have any idea about the way early minutes does or doesn't help young players in general, or our specific young guys. So I promise not to be one of those who gripe, whatever happens.




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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    Example. Josh is bigger and stronger this year. He can finally defend in the post and bang with the boys. 12 months ago I do not think this could of been possible. I think he finally looks like a 3rd year player instead of a robot out there.
    I was thinking about Josh, I think he just now has a defined position that fits. He wasn't mature enough physically before to be a PF and not nearly mobile enough to be a SF. It just took him awhile to fit into the position of PF. I think thats a big reason we have seen such a drastic improvement.

    Clarification: It's not that he was ever projected to be a SF, it's just he was never ready to be a PF, until now.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I don't think the problem will be as large this year.

    Last year, it wasn't that Murphy was a veteran getting time over younger guys. It was that he was less effective than McRoberts, when you applied both sides of the floor.

    Same with A.J. He was our best point guard last year. That's why he should have gotten the most minutes.

    This year, Dun will not be less effective than Rush or George (my opinion of course). Yes, he is less effective on defense but he is still okay, not in the terrible category. His solid offense makes him the better choice of player.

    I wouldn't mind Posey getting some minutes this year if he were really effective. So far, he hasn't shown that. So George, Rush, McRoberts, Rolle ought to get them. Not to develop them but because they would be better.

    So, the problem in the past, in my opinion, has not been the continuum between veterans and development. It has been Jim O'Stubborn's refusal to play younger guys who are better than vets.
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I like bringing the rooks along a bit slower, unless they show an ability to help your team right away.

    Sprinkle in playing time for the rookies throughout the year. Put them in with the vets, not the other rookies. Pick their opponent. And when injuries happen give them that chance to step up. There's not a minute or game requirement even.

    I think George could help us from the wing right away. His athleticism is something we badly need at the spot. He'll probably step into a role of 10-15 minutes off the bench, depending on how much Posey sucks during the season.

    Lance and Magnum should be in suits a lot of nights early, but when they have favorable opponents, make them active and give them some time in quarter 2 or 3.

    Hansbrough....I think he may be the only guy you want to actually get force-fed minutes due to our lack of ready depth at big. Probably 15 minutes per game, ramping up as the season progresses if he shows that he can handle it.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/web_101013.html
    By Conrad Brunner

    Ten things you need to know about the Pacers' 98-86 victory over the Timberwolves on Wednesday at Conseco Fieldhouse. …


    •After using developmental substitution patterns in the first three games, Coach Jim O'Brien went to a more standard look and the results were impressive. Danny Granger scored 30 with 11 rebounds and four assists. Darren Collison scored 19 with three assists. Roy Hibbert had 16 points, 14 rebounds, seven blocks and four assists. Josh McRoberts had eight points and 11 boards but five turnovers.


    •After using the five-in, five-out substitution pattern of the first three games, employed so that young players could receive enough playing time for reasonable evaluation, the transition began toward standardizing the rotations. "We've been playing kind of equal opportunity to give a chance for the young guys to get in there and mix it up," he said. "More of a normal rotation tonight, not completely, but once we play Friday night (against New Orleans in Conseco Fieldhouse) we'll be into our eight-to-10 man rotation."


    •The defensive numbers looked good – Minnesota shot .319 overall and totaled just 34 points on 12-of-43 (.279) shooting in the second half – but did not impress the coach. "We are so far away from being a halfway decent defensive team," said O'Brien. "We're setting ourselves up for disappointment if we don't defend at a better level than we did tonight."


    •Paul George may have busted his preseason slump. He scored 10 off the bench with six rebounds in 24 minutes. He was 3-of-21 in the first three games, totaling seven points in 65 minutes. "I am getting a little more adjusted," he said. "It is as hard as I thought it would be."


    •Playing the second of a back-to-back, the T-Wolves led 52-47 at the half but were outscored 25-13 in the third quarter and that was that. As a result, the previously winless Pacers improved to 1-3 and the previously undefeated T-Wolves dropped to 3-1. As if that matters.


    •O'Brien would like to use a 10-man rotation during the regular season but it could depend on the tempo the Pacers establish. "It might depend on the tempo that we have established in a game but I would like to have confidence in 10 people," he said. "Whether we use all 10 every night is another issue but I would like to have 10 guys that would be ready to go and play every game."


    •My best guess on those 10: starters Darren Collison, Mike Dunleavy, Danny Granger, Josh McRoberts and Roy Hibbert; backups A.J. Price, James Posey, Paul George, Tyler Hansbrough and Jeff Foster.

    •Beyond the top six, there wasn't much in the way of productivity for the Pacers (no one else scored more two),

    O'Brien will not donate playing time to younger players for the sake of their development. "I want to develop the young guys but I'm not developing anybody to the point that it might cost us a game," he said. " … We can talk about rebuilding all we want. My job is to win basketball games and develop talent. But the top priority is to win basketball games."

    •Brandon Rush has put himself in a real bind with the season-opening five-game suspension. If the guys playing ahead of him in the interim (namely Dunleavy and George) perform well, he may face a fight for playing time when he returns. "There are two issues," said O'Brien. "There would be the issue of where he would be in the rotation if he wasn't suspended. That is an issue separate from the suspension. He has to earn a rotation spot, number one. Number two, clearly he can't be in it the first five games so I'm thinking in terms of obviously other people. And depending on how the other people do in the first five games, we'll see how he fits back in."


    Intersting that Conrad doesnt think Rush will be in the rotation. Also as much as I dont like Jim, I understand and agree that its about wins. If I was a coach and had a family to support, I wouldnt be so concerened with playing the young guys, I would do whatever I could to win , to ultimitlley keep my job

    That does make sense
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I was thinking about Josh, I think he just now has a defined position that fits. He wasn't mature enough physically before to be a PF and not nearly mobile enough to be a SF. It just took him awhile to fit into the position of PF. I think thats a big reason we have seen such a drastic improvement.

    Clarification: It's not that he was ever projected to be a SF, it's just he was never ready to be a PF, until now.

    You are exactly right. He was not quick enough to be a athletic beat you to the basket PF and he wasnt strong enough to be a ill just bump you until I get there PF. Now he is and it is working great for him.

    This is just preseason. I keep telling myself that. I keep being reminded of visions of David Harrison scoring 10-15 ppg in every pre season game a few years ago so I try not to get that excited.

    But if he can keep this going through the season. I would let him have the PF spot. He has to average 10 rpg though. Tell him he will be the PF of the future if he can do that. Then I go and break the bank on a top tier SG.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Clarification: It's not that he was ever projected to be a SF, it's just he was never ready to be a PF, until now.
    Actually, if I remember right, he was regarded as a tweener at one point. People thought he could play both positions pro early in his duke career.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Another thing. If george can continue to give us the performance he did last night. He continue to sit rush.

    I am not saying start PG24 but atleast get him 15-20 min per game.

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Buck

    Your points make sense. The only thing I would say is lets NOT play the young guys early unless they give us the best chance to win, period.

    When this would change for me is if come say March we are clearly out of the playoff race, then I definitely want the young guys to play and play often. I would much rather have that than win meaningless games at the end , with our starters and have Jim or whoever tell us how important it was to build momentum for next year
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    I's like to make a related point:


    Looking at Jose Slaughter's excellent Front Page contribution, I see the list of All-Time Pacers listed by seasons played.

    How many Pacers ever have played in 10 or more seasons? The answer is 5. (Miller, Smits, Fleming, Foster and Davis).

    How many Pacers have played in only one single season? The answer is a whopping 138. This is not based on O'Brien's supposed mishandling of rookies, nor just the years of Larry "I Don't Play Rookies" Brown. The whole history of the franchise shows clearly that one-and-done is the usual pattern. Just defining "One" as a single year gets you more than half of all Pacers in history. If you define them as one contract, then you've got nearly the total. Players with a history of five or more years with the Pacers is still a very small number of 32, and that includes guys like Greg Dreiling who had nothing much to develop, and guys like Bender who couldn't even make it onto the court.

    So, what I'm saying is, just because you've got a young player on the roster doesn't mean you've got talent worth developing. The enthusiasm some feel right now about Magnum Rolle is nothing else than the enthusiasm that somebody in Atlanta felt for Solomon Jones when he was drafted there.

    Most players wash out. There just aren't enough minutes to go around. Developing a player who's not going to be here in three years is not smart.
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Let me ask this, if everyone is healthy and ready....

    How would people feel if TJ comes back and plays over AJ?

    What about if Posey plays back up PF instead of Hansbrough?

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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Let me ask this, if everyone is healthy and ready....

    How would people feel if TJ comes back and plays over AJ?

    What about if Posey plays back up PF instead of Hansbrough?
    Honestly I have no poltics involved

    If TJ and Posey CLEARLY outplay AJ and Tyler , thats the right thing to do

    If however, one or the other is played because of reasons not related to their play on the court, I have a big issue with that
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    Default Re: Winning vs developing the younger guys: your thoughts before the season

    Be like the Thunder play your young guys until they get better.
    I'm not perfect and neither are you.

    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned,and come short of the glory of God. kjv
    Ephisians 4: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. kjv

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