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Thread: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So for those that keep saying that JOB did not have the right players to win, please tell me how many more years you think he needs? two more? Five more? Ten?
    I didn't get an answer

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    So please tell me why Isiaha is a worse coach and deserved to be fired, but somehow magically O'Brien gets a pass after after contiously posting a record that gets worse every year
    You might also explain how in direct competition, a Thomas coached team lost to an O'brien coached team, while having superiorior talent and home court advantage.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
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    I continue to cry into the wilderness that people should bash the guy for the things he really is or isn't doing, rather than picking the handy sound bite and piling onto it.

    We're lost like Moses.


    A small niggle: The voice crying in the wilderness was John the Baptist, not Moses.


    Otherwise . . . carry right on!








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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    A small niggle: The voice crying in the wilderness was John the Baptist, not Moses.


    Otherwise . . . carry right on!
    I know.

    Moses however did wander through the desert for 40 years as he led the Jews out of Egypt, and you could argue that he was lost.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So for those that keep saying that JOB did not have the right players to win, please tell me how many more years you think he needs? two more? Five more? Ten?
    Simply put it isn't a matter of "right" players, Jim hasn't had anywhere close to good enough players

    Give Jim O'Brien the Orlando Magic and he would win 58 games or so.

    You win in the NBA with talent, talented vets and a few talented young players. pacers last season when all is taken into account were IMO one of the least talented teams in the NBA and even where there was some talent, either they were too young to be winning players yet or they were injured.

    if SVG had been coaching the pacers the past three seasons, I think the Pacers would be essentially in the same exact position they are right now, except everyone would be critical of SVG instead of JOB
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 10-12-2010 at 04:00 PM.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I didn't get an answer
    I have yet to read anybody suggest that O'brien deserves a free pass and an indefinite contract extension, only that some seek to acknowledge that there are more variables at play to success/failure than a coach, especially in a professional league.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Isiah had teams that were ready to compete to go deep into the playoffs. He under achived by a long shot. He had about a milion different lineups and the players didn't know their rolls.
    I don't know if JOB is a better or worse coach. He is just different bad. His teams are less talented, but still under achive. Should he be fired, yes of course. 3 years and your record is getting worse, than don't let the door hit you in the arse. This summer there were also a lot of good coaches available.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    So please tell me why Isiaha is a worse coach and deserved to be fired, but somehow magically O'Brien gets a pass after after contiously posting a record that gets worse every year
    I can't say this any more simply.

    Because Isiah had a different team and a different set of expectations.

    Isiah did less with more even though the record improved.

    Do you really think Isiah would have had this set of guys winning championships, or that the 2007-2010 teams were in any way comparable to or even as stable as the 2000-2003 teams?
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    But if you hire Mark (who, as I recall, adamantly did not want the job, but we'll let that go) and the season turns out EXACTLY the same, how do you KNOW if Mark is or is not a good coach? Even a great chef can't make a ****** sandwich into a gourmet meal.

    You know better than this. I was using Mark as an example, saying I would take a chance on a first year coach when you asked who would want the job when they didn't know who was going to be on the roster.

    You know perfectly well that I'm not saying Mark is the only answer, just an example of the type of coach I would have been willing to see come in.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Isiaha's tenure

    Season 1 41-41, Finished 4th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Isiah Thomas (41-41)

    Season 2 42-40, Finished 3rd in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Isiah Thomas (42-40)

    Season 3 48-34, Finished 2nd in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Isiah Thomas (48-34)

    Then he was fired

    Jim O'Brien

    Season 1 36-46, Finished 3rd in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Jim O'Brien (36-46)

    Season 2 36-46, Finished 4th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Jim O'Brien (36-46)

    Season 3 32-50, Finished 4th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Jim O'Brien (32-50)

    Then his contract option for year 4 was picked up

    So please tell me why Isiaha is a worse coach and deserved to be fired, but somehow magically O'Brien gets a pass after after contiously posting a record that gets worse every year
    Player talent was vastly different between Isiah's rosters and Jim's. That's why Jim is treated differently.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Part Timer View Post
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    You might also explain how in direct competition, a Thomas coached team lost to an O'brien coached team, while having superiorior talent and home court advantage.
    Great point

    and I cant even argue that one

    although I could say we were a very young team , and the celtics had more veterans, but that would be an excuse

    so nice play my man
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Bill please address these two things

    1. Why after 3 years, regardless of player personel, should the coach show no improvement in the win loss record
    To say "regardless of player personnel" begs the question. You are more or less asking "If nothing else other than coaching matters, then why should the coach show..." - I disagree with the premise that nothing else but coaching matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    2. Why does Bird say "after 3 years the coach should be replaced "
    Quote Originally Posted by ESPN
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    "I've always said, three years and you need a new coach," Bird joked.
    Bird joked.

    But we can continue to ignore that and also explain that it is a bit tough to say that guys tune a coach out after 3 years if most of those guys aren't THERE after 2.
    BillS

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Simply put it isn't a matter of "right" players, Jim hasn't had anywhere close to good enough players

    Give Jim O'Brien the Orlando Magic and he would win 58 games or so.

    You win in the NBA with talent, talented vets and a few talented young players. pacers last season when all is taken into account were IMO one of the least talented teams in the NBA and even where there was some talent, either they were too young to be winning players yet or they were injured.

    if SVG had been coaching the pacers the past three seasons, I think the Pacers would be essentially in the same exact position they are right now, except everyone would be critical of SVG instead of JOB
    But again , regardless of the players, don't you want or expect to see improvement?
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    You know better than this. I was using Mark as an example, saying I would take a chance on a first year coach when you asked who would want the job when they didn't know who was going to be on the roster.

    You know perfectly well that I'm not saying Mark is the only answer, just an example of the type of coach I would have been willing to see come in.
    So substitute any first year coach and the premise is identical. IF the record is EXACTLY the same, how do you know if it is the roster or the new coach? You would probably assume it is the new coach, which is why as a potential new coach I stay so far away from that I wouldn't see it with the Hubble Telescope.
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I can't say this any more simply.

    Because Isiah had a different team and a different set of expectations.

    Isiah did less with more even though the record improved.

    Do you really think Isiah would have had this set of guys winning championships, or that the 2007-2010 teams were in any way comparable to or even as stable as the 2000-2003 teams?
    Ok but Bill I have repetedly asked one question that you seem to avoid :

    Regardless of the player personel, why should we not expect improvment after 3 years?

    I mean a suburau might never be as good a car as a Mercedes, but that doesnt mean they cant improve their porduct
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    But again , regardless of the players, don't you want or expect to see improvement?
    What about injuries?

    Everyone seems to ignore that as well.

    Year 1, healthy Granger and Dunleavy, better record.

    Year 2, healthy, more assertive Danny Granger (misses 15 games) and hurt Dunleavy, same record.

    Year 3, hurt Danny Granger (misses 20 games, but was clearly playing some games he shouldn't have) and recovering Dunleavy, worse record.

    That's not rocket science.

    Year 4 the chips are on the table, Granger is healthy, Dun is healthy, Collison is here, Hibbert has improved. This is Jim's make or break year and has been since year 2 and Dunleavy's injury problem.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 10-12-2010 at 04:12 PM.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Back to the OP, regardless of the record, I expect things to be a lot more fun at the Fieldhouse than it was last year.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    But again , regardless of the players, don't you want or expect to see improvement?
    It's the players that have to execute. How can you have improvement WITHOUT the players?

    I have seen far too many times a competent coach take a rebuilding team and have a record, a worse record, and then (and only then) begin building on that worse record. You nearly always take a step back after the first step, because you begin adjusting and new problems crop up. If, and pretty much only if, the personnel stay the same and are capable of improving from that point, you finally settle in and begin moving forward.

    In my opinion, last year's team improved in one area (general defense) but couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a string bass when standing wide open at the FT line and given a Mulligan. "Wide open" means "Not 100% Jim O'Brien's Fault".

    Had circumstances been different and I really thought the players hated JOB (in which case why not completely tank at the end of last season, it wasn't a contract year for any of them) or that they were on the verge of a breakthrough, I'd have been more upset at the extension. As it is I don't think a change would have hurt but I don't think it is killing the team, either.
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Player talent was vastly different between Isiah's rosters and Jim's. That's why Jim is treated differently.
    I understand but why cant , regardless of the personel, expect improvement?

    Even if Isiaha had the current Heat roster, and Obie had the Current Net roster, is it impossible to think they cant improve on their record?

    Do you think NJ will win more than 12 games this year?

    If so will it be the Murphy aquisition that got more wins, or the new coach in Avery Johnson?

    My point is always no matter who you have on the team a ggod coach can make eeven the slightest improvement

    The college ranks and even pro's are full of teams that had bad records, then had a coaching change (not personel) then had a much better record the following year

    Why/ a better coach
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I understand but why cant , regardless of the personel, expect improvement?

    Even if Isiaha had the current Heat roster, and Obie had the Current Net roster, is it impossible to think they cant improve on their record?

    Do you think NJ will win more than 12 games this year?

    If so will it be the Murphy aquisition that got more wins, or the new coach in Avery Johnson?

    My point is always no matter who you have on the team a ggod coach can make eeven the slightest improvement

    The college ranks and even pro's are full of teams that had bad records, then had a coaching change (not personel) then had a much better record the following year

    Why/ a better coach

    Injuries.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    To say "regardless of player personnel" begs the question. You are more or less asking "If nothing else other than coaching matters, then why should the coach show..." - I disagree with the premise that nothing else but coaching matters.





    Bird joked.

    But we can continue to ignore that and also explain that it is a bit tough to say that guys tune a coach out after 3 years if most of those guys aren't THERE after 2.
    I will admitt I dont agree necessarily with Birds assesment

    I dont see anyone bailing out on : Jerry Sloan, Greg Popovich, or Phill Jackson
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    [QUOTE=BillS;1073533]It's the players that have to execute. How can you have improvement WITHOUT the players?


    Bill ,

    You and I both know that there has been plenty of examples in all sports were the only change from the prior season was the coach, yet they expereienced a dramtic turn around in their record

    True?
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I agree 110%

    But then when I , God forbid, express these setiments, I get a "witch hunt mentality" that seems to want to defend Jim at every opportunity, even vehemently

    I honestly dont understand how anyone can defend this man
    (I'm not talking to you, this is just what happened to set w/e follows off. I'm just talking)
    From my POV.. I'd say there are an equal number of 'haters" and for lack of a more appropriate term "lovers." I think there are far more of us who either A. don't post or B. post very little and quite frankly just DON'T GIVE A **** anymore. I care more about the Pacers than you. I'm such a fan that I can say that and believe it. I just flat out don't care about the coaching aspect of it anymore. I care who is the coach and I do wish we had someone else by now but I just want to watch them play. I think everything will work itself out no matter what I say/do... so I've stopped stressin it.

    Do i wish things were different? Sure do. But it's just in bad taste to dwell on things. I haven't had an opinion on JOB in at least 2 years. You watch, things will be different this year... the year after... and after that. And will have had nothing to do with anything I've said or thought. Just ride the P train boysss... thats why we're here.

    As for my expectations... I may as well be consistent in every thread... 44-38 record. And in what is sure to be a wild year in the East this year, an 8 seed. I want the Heat. Sooooo badly.
    Danny - I expect him to MAN THE EFF UP and play. Both sides of the ball.
    Roy - If he can be anything close to what most of expect he can be this year, we'll be set at the C for quite a few years. 18 ppg 8 rpg (needs to improve) 1.7 bpg
    DC - Screw what people (coaches) say. Play YOUR game. Get after your man on D and YOU set the pace for US. Not for the opponent.
    Paul G - Why won't that shot fall? It looks sooo smooth and easy. I do expect to round out our rotation my the all-star break.
    McRob - I'll admit it. I'm a huge fan. But why isn't EVERYONE? Hans looked good in that ONE preseason game... but I still think Josh can do everything Hans can except better. He's just off doing things Tyler can't when everyone is expecting him to be posted up down low
    Last edited by Pacers4Life; 10-12-2010 at 04:25 PM.
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Ok but Bill I have repetedly asked one question that you seem to avoid :

    Regardless of the player personel, why should we not expect improvment after 3 years?

    I mean a suburau might never be as good a car as a Mercedes, but that doesnt mean they cant improve their porduct
    But improving the product takes more than just polishing the tires to be more shiny, if you'll let me reduce it to an absurdity.

    If in the effort to improve the Subaru you make a mistake that causes the car to run badly, you fix that mistake, you don't fire the guys who can't sell badly running Subarus.

    So I keep trying to answer the question by saying you make the changes that will fix the problem, you don't blame it all on one guy and fire him for the sake of firing him. You keep coming back to "but the other things aren't part of the problem."

    So, fine. IF coaching is the only reason for a team failing to improve, you fire the coach if he doesn't improve the team. But I DISAGREE that coaching is the only reason..
    BillS

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I will admitt I dont agree necessarily with Birds assesment

    I dont see anyone bailing out on : Jerry Sloan, Greg Popovich, or Phill Jackson
    It was a joke referring to his opinion that he himself would only have been listened to for 3 years. It was never, an any context, meant to say that no coach should ever coach for more than 3 years under any circumstances.

    Heck, Carlisle was here for a fourth year.
    BillS

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