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Thread: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    But IS Jim ultimately responsible? If the FO hasn't given him the players, or if you grant that some of those excuses are really valid reasons, and if you wouldn't be able to replace him with anyone useful for the same money, you might not let him go even if the results aren't what you want.

    Not every job is measured solely by the bottom line, and those which are often shouldn't be.
    I agree with you, but let's not act like that's what has happened or is happening.

    Jim has gotten how many new players in the past 3 years?

    EDIT: And I think we would see a better Pacers team with a different coach, obviously depending on the coach. But even Jim's offensive system doesn't mesh well with his players.

    If Mark Jackson, because he isn't proven and isn't willing to prove himself, is the other option I'd rather stay with Jim. (Ouch that hurts.) But a change does need to be made, and as soon as possible. If that means after this season due to contract reasons, then so be it, but he should have never had his option picked up in the first place.
    Last edited by Since86; 10-12-2010 at 02:37 PM.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Were the new players any good? Were the new players better than the ones they replaced?

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Were the new players any good? Were the new players better than the ones they replaced?
    Were they better in the areas they were picked up for but worse in other areas?
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If that means after this season due to contract reasons, then so be it, but he should have never had his option picked up in the first place.
    Who would we have picked up for a single year? Who would want to take the team not knowing who would be GM if he signed a multi-year contract and therefore not know what players he'd have to work with after his first year?

    As I've said, there are more reasons than just that bottom line.

    The real irony is that I don't particularly care for JOB as a coach, but the circumstances aren't such that there were better or more effective coaches waiting in the wings without other highly probably disadvantages or problems.
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Part Timer View Post
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    The part of your metaphor that you don't consider is that if the product isn't good (or there are better products available), it's a tough sell. In this case you are blaming the salesman for everything and overlooking the fact that the product itself has to improve.
    I understand not having top talent, what I dont understand is not improving , but in fact going backwards
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I understand not having top talent, what I dont understand is not improving , but in fact going backwards
    What if the factory is retooling and the product itself gets worse before it gets better? Is that still the salesman's fault?

    What you'd expect from a competent management - granted, so few of those seem to exist - is that, once everyone agrees those are no longer factors, the ball is in the salesman's court.

    This, I think, is what Bird has been saying. He believes the product has not been stable enough to fairly judge the salesman for sales problems, and rather than simply firing him because it would be the easy or most visible change he is trying to fix the real problem. Now the real problem is, if not fixed, expected to be significantly ameliorated. Given that and given no recurrence (the factory suddenly burns down (the starters all go down to major injuries)), this is the time for it to be on the shoulders of the sales team.

    Looking at it another way, maybe management's real forecast and expectation was so low that getting these numbers, no matter the year-to-year change, has been considered as "keeping the company afloat" - would you dump the sales guy who does that?
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    What you are saying, I think, is that you believe that there were available coaches at no major salary increase who wanted the job with the Pacers who would have done a better job. To say you could get a coach for the same money who would do the same would essentially be advocating change for change's sake.
    What I am saying Bill is that regardless of if their is a better coach willing to take the job is speculation, we dont really know who was offferd or who turned it down

    Why not try someone who HASNT been given a chance , instead of one like Obie who has been given multiple chances

    an example could be Mark Jackson, Tyrone Corbin, or other who have paid their dues as assistant coaches but are overlooked when a coaching position becomes open and they would rather recycle the same tired candidates

    I dont know if a new coach would make a difference, but I do know that in my opinion Jim has been given more than ample time to produce better results and has failed

    You can go all day talking about the players, but even if we had the roster as NJ Nets, I would expect some improvement. I dont think Jim should have taken this squad to the ECF , but I do think its weak to say because of the palyers he had it justifies his win loss record consistently going down
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Were the new players any good? Were the new players better than the ones they replaced?
    But how does this excuse Jim from showing progress? What any employer wants to see is progress, to know the company is moving in the right direction. I dont think Jim is soley responsible for the outcome, but I do think to expect to see a better record in year 4 of his tenure then year 1. If the trend is more losses than the prior year, to me that shows the team moving in the wrong direction
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Who would we have picked up for a single year? Who would want to take the team not knowing who would be GM if he signed a multi-year contract and therefore not know what players he'd have to work with after his first year?

    As I've said, there are more reasons than just that bottom line.

    The real irony is that I don't particularly care for JOB as a coach, but the circumstances aren't such that there were better or more effective coaches waiting in the wings without other highly probably disadvantages or problems.
    I would have been content with hiring Mark prior to this season. He could have been signed relatively cheap, and if not then the deal would have been off. He would have gotten his stripes, you would have found out if we was worth a darn as a coach, and you still would of had a throw away season, trying to get your house in order.

    And as far as Hicks question. Jim complained he didn't have enough athletic defenders. He got what he asked for when Bird signed Earl, DJones, and Solo. Especially DJones. He was signed specifically for defensive reasons, and that can be said for Solo really.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    What I am saying Bill is that regardless of if their is a better coach willing to take the job is speculation, we dont really know who was offferd or who turned it down

    Why not try someone who HASNT been given a chance , instead of one like Obie who has been given multiple chances

    an example could be Mark Jackson, Tyrone Corbin, or other who have paid their dues as assistant coaches but are overlooked when a coaching position becomes open and they would rather recycle the same tired candidates

    I dont know if a new coach would make a difference, but I do know that in my opinion Jim has been given more than ample time to produce better results and has failed

    You can go all day talking about the players, but even if we had the roster as NJ Nets, I would expect some improvement. I dont think Jim should have taken this squad to the ECF , but I do think its weak to say because of the palyers he had it justifies his win loss record consistently going down
    So, you have a product you know is flawed.

    You have a salesman who isn't increasing his numbers while you are trying to rework the product.

    You have experienced salesmen who refuse to come work for you because they know how flawed your product is.

    Your solution is to hire guys who either have never been salesmen before (though they've used the product a lot), or who have very little experience in sales, because they might do better?

    I'd have to say this completely boggles my quality control analysis mind. If the next year is a complete flop, how do you know if it was the product or the new sales guy?
    BillS

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    So for those that keep saying that JOB did not have the right players to win, please tell me how many more years you think he needs? two more? Five more? Ten?

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    But how does this excuse Jim from showing progress? What any employer wants to see is progress, to know the company is moving in the right direction. I dont think Jim is soley responsible for the outcome, but I do think to expect to see a better record in year 4 of his tenure then year 1. If the trend is more losses than the prior year, to me that shows the team moving in the wrong direction
    That is more more point. What progress has been shown?

    Danny isn't a better player. We complained all season last year about how players like Rush, Roy, AJ, etc were used. We complained that Josh couldn't even see the floor until the end of the season, and when he did play good it was "irrelevant" to the head coach.

    Sure the team got more talented, but they got more talented in spite of Jim, not because of him.

    We still have the same complaint with Jim, as we did the very first day he was signed as coach. His system. His system, both offensively and defensively, just does not fit the players on the roster. And I don't think it would fit any NBA team, but it is designed as a college scheme where he can pick and choose what types of players he can get.

    If he's a babysitter for the time being, then fine. But I'm afraid he's not looked on like that from the top.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So, you have a product you know is flawed.

    You have a salesman who isn't increasing his numbers while you are trying to rework the product.

    You have experienced salesmen who refuse to come work for you because they know how flawed your product is.

    Your solution is to hire guys who either have never been salesmen before (though they've used the product a lot), or who have very little experience in sales, because they might do better?

    I'd have to say this completely boggles my quality control analysis mind. If the next year is a complete flop, how do you know if it was the product or the new sales guy?
    Bill

    if you are going to try and twist everything around then there is no pint in contuining dialogue

    I disagee with you that the "product" is so inferrior, and even if we had the worst team in the entire NBA, why would you not expect to at least slightly improve year after year., or better yet except going backwards
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Thomas out with one year left on contract
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1604235
    Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

    INDIANAPOLIS -- Evidently, it didn't take long for Larry Bird to find a replacement for Isiah Thomas.

    Sources have told ESPN's David Aldridge that Bird, the Indiana Pacers' president of basketball operations, has decided to hire Rick Carlisle as the club's next head coach. An announcement could come as early as Thursday.

    Thomas was fired by the Pacers on Wednesday.

    Carlisle spent the past two seasons as coach of the Detroit Pistons before being fired in May. Carlisle spoke with Bird on Tuesday night and said he was interested.

    "He's my first choice," Bird said.

    Carlisle told Aldridge on Wednesday that "nothing's done, but hopefully we can work something out."

    Sources now indicate things have been worked out.

    Carlisle and Bird's relationship dates to the 1980s when the two were teammates with the Boston Celtics. Carlisle also was an assistant for Bird during 1997-2000, but was passed over by current Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh in favor of Thomas.

    Carlisle earned 2001-02 NBA Coach of the Year honors during his brief tenure in Detroit.

    As for the firing of Thomas, Bird insisted that he took his new job less than two months ago with an open mind about Thomas' future.

    But he wasted little time in making his first major move, firing Thomas
    .

    "I just had a gut feeling this wasn't going to work," Bird said of a surprise move that came only two months before the start of the season.

    Thomas told Aldridge that the Pacers called him Tuesday night in San Juan, where Thomas was attending the Olympic qualifying tournament, and asked him to return to Indianapolis to meet with Pacers management.

    "I definitely still want to coach, and I know I can coach," Thomas told Aldridge. "I guess I'm disappointed that Larry and I didn't get a chance to work together. I'm disappointed he didn't give that a chance, for us to work together."
    Bird said he didn't feel comfortable with the Pacers' direction after a second-half swoon that knocked them out of first place in the Eastern Conference and into third.
    Bird also said there were other problems with Thomas.

    "I spoke to him one day in a meeting, and I talked to him one day on the phone. The communication wasn't really there," Bird said.

    Thomas arrived in Indianapolis early Wednesday and went straight to Conseco Fieldhouse, where he met with Bird.

    "I said I'm disappointed he didn't give himself an opportunity to know me," Thomas told the Associated Press about his conversation with Bird. "I think he would have liked me had he got to known me."


    Bird said he would have fired Thomas even if Carlisle was not available.

    Bird and Thomas were contentious rivals from their days of leading the Celtics and Pistons to NBA titles in the 1980s.

    When he was hired July 11, Bird walked off the podium at a news conference and shook hands with Thomas -- but neither smiled.

    The Pacers were 131-115 in the regular season under Thomas, making the playoffs all three seasons but never advancing past the first round. Speculation swirled toward the end of the season that Thomas would not be back for the final year of his four-year contract.

    Walsh, however, said Thomas would return, though they wouldn't discuss an extension. Walsh said on Wednesday he agreed with Bird on the decision to fire Thomas.

    Walsh said Thomas would "possibly" have remained on if Bird had not been hired, though he had similar concerns the Pacers wouldn't regroup under Thomas.

    "I would have been very worried about going into the season because I would agree that I think that it could blow up early," Walsh said. "And if it did, then we'd be in a worse situation."

    The team said it would honor the final year of Thomas' contract.

    Bird guided the Pacers to the 2000 NBA Finals and had the best three-year record in their NBA history during his time as coach.

    "I've always said, three years and you need a new coach," Bird joked.

    Indiana had the best record in the Eastern Conference at the All-Star break this past season, making Thomas the All-Star coach, but went 14-19 the rest of the season and lost in the first round of the playoffs to Boston.

    Pacers players had continued to voice support for Thomas. Jermaine O'Neal said before he re-signed with the team last month that he would not play for anybody but Thomas with the Pacers.

    The re-signing of O'Neal and free-agent Reggie Miller, along with the trade of All-Star Brad Miller all fell on Walsh as he eased out of his role as head decision maker.

    This one was Bird's.

    "I think a new coach coming in is going to bring some freshness, a new style and hopefully he can play the game the way I like it to be played," Bird said.

    Bird said the new coach would likely bring in his own assistants.

    The biggest criticism of Thomas was his inconsistent rotations. While most players preferred a set role, Thomas made his decisions on his own feelings for a particular game and team matchups.

    Thomas, who led Indiana to the 1981 NCAA championship, retired as a player after the 1994 season, averaging 19.2 points and 9.3 assists over his 13-year NBA career, all with the Pistons. He won NBA titles in 1989 and 1990.

    He then became vice president and part-owner of the Toronto Raptors and later worked as an NBC analyst on NBA games before joining the Pacers.

    "Now we have to look at our team and see if we have the chemistry on the team that can win together and work together," Bird said. "This is just starting."
    Now Bill , please enlighten me on how Bird can keep Jim after the treatment of Isiah who had a much better record? Do you see the contridictions in bold?

    Isiah took over after the season in which MJ, Dale, Smits were gone and we still made the playoffs.

    By your methology if Obrien did this he would deserve a five year extension
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I would have been content with hiring Mark prior to this season. He could have been signed relatively cheap, and if not then the deal would have been off. He would have gotten his stripes, you would have found out if we was worth a darn as a coach, and you still would of had a throw away season, trying to get your house in order.
    But if you hire Mark (who, as I recall, adamantly did not want the job, but we'll let that go) and the season turns out EXACTLY the same, how do you KNOW if Mark is or is not a good coach? Even a great chef can't make a ****** sandwich into a gourmet meal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And as far as Hicks question. Jim complained he didn't have enough athletic defenders. He got what he asked for when Bird signed Earl, DJones, and Solo. Especially DJones. He was signed specifically for defensive reasons, and that can be said for Solo really.
    And my contention is that the defense did improve but the offense collapsed because no one could hit a wide open shot. A valid criticism is that JOB didn't find a way to get guys hitting shots, maybe by shooting from closer range or implementing a more structured offense, but it isn't valid to say that from 08-09 we needed defenders, from 09-10 we got those defenders and nothing else at all changed.

    Now, I've seen nothing to say that Jim thinks ONLY defensive improvement is needed. I've only seen an article that focused on defense that asked him and quoted him about defense. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Most people in this argument would be shocked JOB even tried to work on defense, so we might take it as granted that he'll work on offense as well.

    If I was to say why I think the group we have this year is capable of better than last year, it would be to say that we have defenders who are not one-dimensional, so we don't lose the offense when focusing on defense. The problem with judging Jim on this is that we have no idea for the purposes of this article whether or not he said anything more than what was quoted, which could have been selected as much because it was simple rather than because it was the most accurate.
    BillS

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Thomas out with one year left on contract
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1604235
    Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.



    Now Bill , please enlighten me on how Bird can keep Jim after the treatment of Isiah who had a much better record? Do you see the contridictions in bold?

    Isiah took over after the season in which MJ, Dale, Smits were gone and we still made the playoffs.

    By your methology if Obrien did this he would deserve a five year extension
    The pacers in isiah's last season maybe were the most talented team in the NBA. (The following season they won 61 games minus Brad Miller) Plus IMO Isiah had clearly lost the team as the pacers had the best record in the NBA at the AS break but then finished the season in bad fashion and lost in the first round to an inferior Celtics team coaches ironically enough by Jim O'Brien.

    I will never forget the disparaging comments both Slick and Mark made about isiah after he was fired.

    IMO O'Brien is a better coach than Isiah

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Thomas out with one year left on contract
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1604235
    Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.



    Now Bill , please enlighten me on how Bird can keep Jim after the treatment of Isiah who had a much better record? Do you see the contridictions in bold?

    Isiah took over after the season in which MJ, Dale, Smits were gone and we still made the playoffs.

    By your methology if Obrien did this he would deserve a five year extension
    That last claim is ridiculous and serves to trivialize the argument.

    To address the rest, it is about expectations from the front office.

    Isiah started with a team that was better, was expected to take the team to the next level, and did not. The players replacing Dale, Jackson, and Rik were not simply draft picks or one-dimensional players. Isiah also pretty much had the same tools to work with his entire time here, including no major injuries.

    JOB started with a team that was in a funk and was only expected to keep things going until the cap situation was worked out and the next phase began. JOB had valid reasons why one or more of his three years blew up for reasons over which he had no control. He wasn't expected to do more than get the team into a situation where it could get more competitive.

    Last but not least, when Isiah was coaching there were a number of coaches available who actually wanted the Pacers job for a long term stretch. They don't exist now.
    BillS

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    We should rename this thread,

    "So what are your expectations for Jim O'Brien?"

    And we should rename PD,

    "Jim O'Brien Digest"

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The pacers in isiah's last season maybe were the most talented team in the NBA. (The following season they won 61 games minus Brad Miller) Plus IMO Isiah had clearly lost the team as the pacers had the best record in the NBA at the AS break but then finished the season in bad fashion and lost in the first round to an inferior Celtics team coaches ironically enough by Jim O'Brien.

    I will never forget the disparaging comments both Slick and Mark made about isiah after he was fired.

    IMO O'Brien is a better coach than Isiah
    I think it goes further than this. Bird/Walsh were under contract. They could make a decision at that time and be around to live with it. This time around Bird is not under contract after this coming year. Heck, there's even a legitimate question about ownership.

    I'm not going to shed tears over O'brien being jettisoned, but i understand why he is still here for this year.

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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    JOB started with a team that was in a funk and was only expected to keep things going until the cap situation was worked out and the next phase began. JOB had valid reasons why one or more of his three years blew up for reasons over which he had no control. He wasn't expected to do more than get the team into a situation where it could get more competitive.
    Isiaha's tenure

    Season 1 41-41, Finished 4th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Isiah Thomas (41-41)

    Season 2 42-40, Finished 3rd in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Isiah Thomas (42-40)

    Season 3 48-34, Finished 2nd in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Isiah Thomas (48-34)

    Then he was fired

    Jim O'Brien

    Season 1 36-46, Finished 3rd in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Jim O'Brien (36-46)

    Season 2 36-46, Finished 4th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Jim O'Brien (36-46)

    Season 3 32-50, Finished 4th in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
    Coached by: Jim O'Brien (32-50)

    Then his contract option for year 4 was picked up

    So please tell me why Isiaha is a worse coach and deserved to be fired, but somehow magically O'Brien gets a pass after after contiously posting a record that gets worse every year
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  30. #46
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Bill

    if you are going to try and twist everything around then there is no pint in contuining dialogue

    I disagee with you that the "product" is so inferrior, and even if we had the worst team in the entire NBA, why would you not expect to at least slightly improve year after year., or better yet except going backwards
    I'm not sure how I am twisting everything, I am trying to expand on the analogy that you yourself return to over and over again. If the analogy is that strong, either all of it is strong or you need to point out the parts that aren't and explain why not.

    If I have a product that is inferior I certainly don't expect my salesman to be the only one responsible for improving it, nor do I blame him solely if it gets worse.

    But it seems our disagreement is on the quality of that product. You believe that it was inherently unchanging or better from year to year and that therefore JOB was the major cause of diminishing returns, while I believe - totally aside from my opinions of his coaching flaws - that he got about what they were able to do (if not a little more) due to those same circumstances that you choose to dismiss.

    I don't see how we resolve that, because frankly there is no way to know. However, it means that absolutes also fail, and comparing numbers in one area with what would happen with the same numbers in another is a fairly useless exercise because they are NOT the same thing.
    BillS

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  32. #47
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    IMO O'Brien is a better coach than Isiah
    I understand you feel that way but the record of each coach does not support that

    I do understand though you can say one had more talent etc, etc
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    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    I'm not sure how I am twisting everything, I am trying to expand on the analogy that you yourself return to over and over again. If the analogy is that strong, either all of it is strong or you need to point out the parts that aren't and explain why not.
    Bill please address these two things

    1. Why after 3 years, regardless of player personel, should the coach show no improvement in the win loss record

    2. Why does Bird say "after 3 years the coach should be replaced "

    Thanks
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  34. #49
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Part Timer View Post
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    I think it goes further than this. Bird/Walsh were under contract. They could make a decision at that time and be around to live with it. This time around Bird is not under contract after this coming year. Heck, there's even a legitimate question about ownership.

    I'm not going to shed tears over O'brien being jettisoned, but i understand why he is still here for this year.
    I agree, plus the 2003 team was ready to win now. The current team is not ready to win now. Maybe in two years, but not now.

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  36. #50
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    Default Re: So What Are Your Expectations For The Pacers?

    I think it speaks loads that O'Brien has consistently gotten coaching jobs.

    Isiah has not. His time in New York was a failure and they only let him sit on the bench once the ship was already in flames and sinking. There is a reason the guy will probably never have another coaching job.

    Whereas, I could see O'Brien getting another job in the NBA after the Pacers. He's already done that twice. Isiah hasn't.

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