Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: another DC2 article

  1. #1
    Member Erik's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    40
    Posts
    727

    Default another DC2 article

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...ets-settled-in
    by Mike Wells

    Darren Collison thrived running pick-and-rolls with David West and Emeka Okafor in New Orleans last season.

    Collison was able to keep his dribble and choose to either turn the corner and attack the basket, dish off to the screener rolling to the basket or shoot a jump shot if the defender tried to go under the screen.

    Collison likely won't have as many opportunities to do that as the Indiana Pacers' starting point guard because the ball won't be in his hands as long during the offensive possessions.

    He has spent the first week of training camp adapting to not having the ball as much.

    "I'd be lying if I said it hasn't been somewhat challenging because that's how I've been used to playing," Collison said. "But I'm getting a lot better at it. Ideally it's not what a point guard wants to go through, but it's the best thing in order to move without the ball."

    Coach Jim O'Brien has constantly been talking to Collison to help him get a better understanding of the passing-game offense.

    O'Brien said he plans to put Collison in a lot of pick-and-roll situations. He wants him to have about a 3.1-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio. He was at 2.1-to-1 last season.

    "I don't think he's having problems with it," O'Brien said. "I thought he was maybe a little bit predictable in his movement early in the week."

    Collison has spent a lot of time talking with T.J. Ford, who is in his third season playing for O'Brien, getting a better understanding of the system.

    "The biggest thing I told him to do is stay in constant communication with coach O'Brien," Ford said. "I also told him to get an understanding of the angles. You can tell he's getting more and more comfortable with things."

    The last time Collison played this much without the ball in his hands was when he was at UCLA.

    "The coach (Ben Howland) stressed it a lot there," Collison said. "There were some practices where we went a couple of hours trying to move without the ball. I know exactly how this story goes. You just have to move without the ball, screen for others, get yourself open and find other ways to score."

    Collison has made a concerted effort to find the open man and run the offense all the way through instead of deviating from it by trying to break his man down off the dribble.

    "Forcing the issue is not my style," he said. "You just have to let the offense flow. When I have my opportunity, I'll take it. I'm not a player that breaks off sets when we're trying to get something accomplished.

    "When we start playing games, it's going to open up a lot more. This is practice, where we're trying to go through the system and learn the system."

    Blue beats the white

    The blue team, which featured Collison, Danny Granger, Brandon Rush and Roy Hibbert, easily beat the white team, which had Ford and Mike Dunleavy, 32-15 in a team scrimmage Saturday afternoon.

    "That was a real butt kicking," O'Brien said. "It's not like the white team was all rookies. That wasn't the case. They had some veterans, and the blue team just wore them out."

    O'Brien purposely put rookie Paul George on the blue team so that he could have an opportunity to play alongside Granger and Rush. The three didn't play much together during the first week of camp.

    O'Brien gave his team the day off today.

    Call Star reporter Mike Wells at (317) 444-6053.
    Not a real exciting article, it's just another one of those times where I'm getting pumped about the season and possibly having our PG of the future. I saw one of the "Protector" billboards downtown with Collison on it and I realized that it still hasn't sunk in completely. I wish this season would start already!

  2. #2
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,811

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Jamaal eventually snapped. TJ seems to have been broken and has his mind right after a season in the box, although he may make one last run for it. Hopefully DC doesn't have a failure to communicate.......
    Last edited by MagicRat; 10-03-2010 at 08:17 PM.
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  3. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to MagicRat For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Northside Bias
    Posts
    12,949

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  5. #4
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind.
    Posts
    3,542
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: another DC2 article



    The point guard madness apparently continues, and I feel sorry for Collison at this point.

    What I want to know is where is the change in philosophy with respect to the pg position? I thought O'B was going to change to an offense that would better suit what Collison brings, not that Collison would spend camp adjusting his playing style to suit O'Brien while unlearning the play that brought him success last year? O'B supporters, where is the flexibility, in the player or the coach????? Sure looks like the player by a wide margin so far.

    Also, why is TJ Ford mentoring and advising Collison? Could it be that Ford actually plays almost exactly as he is told, as most O'B pgs have in the past, but just chooses to drive a little too deep in the paint prior to making the decision to shoot or pass, therefore being more likely to shoot poor shots or commit turnovers?

    If Ford DOESN'T play the way that O'B wants him to play, then why on God's green Earth is Ford being allowed to give substantial advice to his replacement regarding what O'Brien wants from the pg position????? Is it the philosophy of "Those that can't, teach"?????

    I fervently hope that this is not true, but experience has taught me that it is far more likely to be true than not.

  6. #5
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,506

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Yea that article seemed a little on the down side. Obviously it is hard to read emotion in the written word without the context of the conversation but there was just some phrasing that led me to believe that once again we have another point guard who is going to have a hard time adjusting & a coach who is only willing to adjust so much.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  7. #6
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,811

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    This got ignored, but we had this same stuff from the horse's mouths a couple of days ago......

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=56926
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  8. #7

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Yea, Collison's game simply does not fit Obie's system, which I've said since before we got him. He seems like he's got a high bball IQ and he's really willing, so he'll probably do as he's told, but he's not going to be comfortable with it, and not going to be nearly as effective.

  9. #8
    Shooting for the Moon Day-V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    SoBro
    Age
    25
    Posts
    4,307
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yea, Collison's game simply does not fit Obie's system, which I've said since before we got him. He seems like he's got a high bball IQ and he's really willing, so he'll probably do as he's told, but he's not going to be comfortable with it, and not going to be nearly as effective.
    So in other words,

    We're ****ed.

  10. #9
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    3,915
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Yeah...I've been uncertain about how DC and OB would mesh and I don't like the sound of taking a young point guard that was really successful playing one way and immediately trying to make him play another. But who knows, he's young and he has some prior experience with motion offense, maybe he can make it work. You can't necessarily tell anything from all the talk (especially from JOB), so we'll just have to see what happens when the rubber hits the road.

    I'm cautiously optimistic that the system will be adjusted at least a little to allow DC to do his thing in certain situations. On the other hand, the good (?) news is that if DC is mediocre going into the all-star break it may finally force the coach firing hand of Mr. Bird.
    "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

    "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

    Michael Pina, Red94: "There are so many different ways the Pacers can beat you. They have an All-Star scoring threat, imposing figures on the front line, steady point guard play, and most importantly, a defense that'll choke the life out of just about every offense that crosses its path."

  11. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St. Bonaventure, NY
    Age
    21
    Posts
    16,832
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yea, Collison's game simply does not fit Obie's system, which I've said since before we got him. He seems like he's got a high bball IQ and he's really willing, so he'll probably do as he's told, but he's not going to be comfortable with it, and not going to be nearly as effective.
    yep

  12. #11
    This Thing Is Working® O'Bird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    210

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yea that article seemed a little on the down side. Obviously it is hard to read emotion in the written word without the context of the conversation but there was just some phrasing that led me to believe that once again we have another point guard who is going to have a hard time adjusting & a coach who is only willing to adjust so much.
    Why? A motion system is great for him. He's even got experience playing off the ball in a motion system in college, and he has the shooting skills to spot up anywhere in the front court, and the ability to take a pass and shoot off the dribble going either left or right. He's got plenty of quicks to move without the ball.

    Are people really arguing that he should dominate the ball and the team should run all the offense through him? Coach noted his A/T ratio last year, which was not great (40th among rotation points). More fundamentally, you take away from the skills of a Roy Hibbert, a Danny Granger, and especially, if I may say so, a Josh McRoberts, if you do that.

    What they're building is a team where you can run offense through multiple players. To me, that's exciting, a more modern, team-oriented approach. Prime example in Thursday's practice film, where Hibbert hits him with a pass out of the low post as he flashes into the lane, for a layup. With his speed and quicks, he'll break free of his man a lot, and guys who can deliver the ball, like Roy and Josh, can get DC scoring opportunities because he can move without the ball. He'll return the favor, since they're looking to get him pick and roll opportunities.

    _________
    :

    "Defense doesn't break down on the help, it breaks down on the recovery." - Chuck Daly

    "The first shot does not beat you." - Chuck Daly

    "To play defense and not foul is an art that must be mastered if you are going to be successful." - Chuck Daly

  13. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to O'Bird For This Useful Post:


  14. #12

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    I think that's a great argument, really. Why would we run the offense through Collison?

    Collison's game may not fit this sytem, but he hasn't proven that he is a reason to change it. However, running more PnRs for him will be positive for the entire team. So that's something JOB should consider. (And I think he will, personall)

    Truthfully I think the only reason we should change the offense is if it'll benefit Hibbert and Granger (unless Collison proves that he is an elite PG). That doesn't mean, however, that Collison won't be uncomfortable. And that his skills wouldn't be better used in a different system.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Sookie For This Useful Post:


  16. #13
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,738

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Could it be that Ford actually plays almost exactly as he is told, as most O'B pgs have in the past, but just chooses to drive a little too deep in the paint prior to making the decision to shoot or pass, therefore being more likely to shoot poor shots or commit turnovers?
    Ford's style of play has never gotten him into trouble with Obie. It's his shooting percentage from deep that's led to his benchings.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Anthem For This Useful Post:


  18. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,150

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...ets-settled-in
    by Mike Wells



    Not a real exciting article, it's just another one of those times where I'm getting pumped about the season and possibly having our PG of the future. I saw one of the "Protector" billboards downtown with Collison on it and I realized that it still hasn't sunk in completely. I wish this season would start already!
    O'Brien purposely put rookie Paul George on the blue team so that he could have an opportunity to play alongside Granger and Rush. The three didn't play much together during the first week of camp.


    I find that VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
    exciting.

  19. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,150

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Jamaal eventually snapped. TJ seems to be broken and have his mind right after a season in the box, although he may make one last run for it. Hopefully DC doesn't have a failure to communicate.......
    LOL, that's VERY good!

    But not "last run for it", rather "he might go rabbit".

  20. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,150

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote


    The point guard madness apparently continues, and I feel sorry for Collison at this point.

    What I want to know is where is the change in philosophy with respect to the pg position? I thought O'B was going to change to an offense that would better suit what Collison brings, not that Collison would spend camp adjusting his playing style to suit O'Brien while unlearning the play that brought him success last year? O'B supporters, where is the flexibility, in the player or the coach????? Sure looks like the player by a wide margin so far.

    Also, why is TJ Ford mentoring and advising Collison? Could it be that Ford actually plays almost exactly as he is told, as most O'B pgs have in the past, but just chooses to drive a little too deep in the paint prior to making the decision to shoot or pass, therefore being more likely to shoot poor shots or commit turnovers?

    If Ford DOESN'T play the way that O'B wants him to play, then why on God's green Earth is Ford being allowed to give substantial advice to his replacement regarding what O'Brien wants from the pg position????? Is it the philosophy of "Those that can't, teach"?????

    I fervently hope that this is not true, but experience has taught me that it is far more likely to be true than not.
    Not too paranoid......
    HOw did you miss this part of the article?
    "Collison has made a concerted effort to find the open man and run the offense all the way through instead of deviating from it by trying to break his man down off the dribble.

    "Forcing the issue is not my style," he said. "You just have to let the offense flow. When I have my opportunity, I'll take it. I'm not a player that breaks off sets when we're trying to get something accomplished.

    "When we start playing games, it's going to open up a lot more. This is practice, where we're trying to go through the system and learn the system."


    Try actually seeing the words that are on the page

  21. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,150

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So in other words,

    We're ****ed.
    OR
    You guys wouldn't know offensive philosophy from your a**.

    THAT is about 100 times more likely.

  22. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,150

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Why? A motion system is great for him. He's even got experience playing off the ball in a motion system in college, and he has the shooting skills to spot up anywhere in the front court, and the ability to take a pass and shoot off the dribble going either left or right. He's got plenty of quicks to move without the ball.

    Are people really arguing that he should dominate the ball and the team should run all the offense through him? Coach noted his A/T ratio last year, which was not great (40th among rotation points). More fundamentally, you take away from the skills of a Roy Hibbert, a Danny Granger, and especially, if I may say so, a Josh McRoberts, if you do that.

    What they're building is a team where you can run offense through multiple players. To me, that's exciting, a more modern, team-oriented approach. Prime example in Thursday's practice film, where Hibbert hits him with a pass out of the low post as he flashes into the lane, for a layup. With his speed and quicks, he'll break free of his man a lot, and guys who can deliver the ball, like Roy and Josh, can get DC scoring opportunities because he can move without the ball. He'll return the favor, since they're looking to get him pick and roll opportunities.

    _________
    The forest, the forest, this man can see the forest!!

    As they BOTH said, there will be LOTS of opportunities for DC to pick and roll. There will be PLENTY of times where the clock is down and he has to take his man off the dribble.
    As DC CLEARLY SAID, this is practice, where he is learning this "new" system (but renewal for him after UCLA).
    If this is half the game (in terms of posessions) and it's different than what he's played in the league (it is) then we SHOULD be spending all the time learning what needs to become natural.
    When the ball is up and the lights are on, it has to all be natural or it isn't going to work.
    Once he learns (agian) this side of the offensive philosophy, and it becomes natural to him, THEN it's just another weapon in his arsenal, and he can show a complete game to any opposition defense.
    That makes him INFINITELY more dangerous than a guy that only makes something happen with the ball in his hands.

    I don't know how many of you are noticing, but we've got some excellent passers on this team. Roy and McBob are flat out excellent, and certainly DC is as well. DC will see TONS of layups if he learns to move like MDun without the ball.
    And put up big numbers WITHOUT having 100% of the ball pressure on HIM every game.
    It's a win win.

  23. #19
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,506

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Why? A motion system is great for him. He's even got experience playing off the ball in a motion system in college, and he has the shooting skills to spot up anywhere in the front court, and the ability to take a pass and shoot off the dribble going either left or right. He's got plenty of quicks to move without the ball.

    Are people really arguing that he should dominate the ball and the team should run all the offense through him? Coach noted his A/T ratio last year, which was not great (40th among rotation points). More fundamentally, you take away from the skills of a Roy Hibbert, a Danny Granger, and especially, if I may say so, a Josh McRoberts, if you do that.

    What they're building is a team where you can run offense through multiple players. To me, that's exciting, a more modern, team-oriented approach. Prime example in Thursday's practice film, where Hibbert hits him with a pass out of the low post as he flashes into the lane, for a layup. With his speed and quicks, he'll break free of his man a lot, and guys who can deliver the ball, like Roy and Josh, can get DC scoring opportunities because he can move without the ball. He'll return the favor, since they're looking to get him pick and roll opportunities.

    _________
    Perhaps in your rush to jump on the potential grenade lobbed at Jim you failed to notice a couple of things.

    1. I made a point of saying it is hard to read emotion in the written word when penned by a third party.

    2. I even gave O'Brien credit by saying he was willing to adjust. Now I certainly added the caveat that he would only adjust so much but hey at least I didn't say it was all on him.

    As to why I feel this way after reading this article, well for starters this statement here bothers me quite a bit.

    "I'd be lying if I said it hasn't been somewhat challenging because that's how I've been used to playing," Collison said. "But I'm getting a lot better at it. Ideally it's not what a point guard wants to go through, but it's the best thing in order to move without the ball."

    Now you can interpret that in several ways but my first take on it is that it is not his preferred style of play (playing without the ball) as it was T.J.'s & as it was Jamaal's before him. This is one of the reasons why I have always said O'Brien uses a modified version of Paul Westheads offense, where the point guard is really not a point guard & generally those coach's don't end up getting along with their p.g. very well.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  24. #20
    This Thing Is Working® O'Bird's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    210

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Perhaps in your rush to jump on the potential grenade lobbed at Jim you failed to notice a couple of things.
    It wouldn't be the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    1. I made a point of saying it is hard to read emotion in the written word when penned by a third party.
    Good caveat. People also misquote and mis-speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    2. I even gave O'Brien credit by saying he was willing to adjust. Now I certainly added the caveat that he would only adjust so much but hey at least I didn't say it was all on him.
    I did note that. One thing missing from the discussion is that a coach is adapting his players to one another, so Collison's ability to play pick and roll, for example, is not the only factor in whether they play it, since he's got to work with a big who can dance with him. (Maybe more to the point, given what the training camp film shows, is whether he's going to play it when a pick is presented...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    This is one of the reasons why I have always said O'Brien uses a modified version of Paul Westheads offense, where the point guard is really not a point guard & generally those coach's don't end up getting along with their p.g. very well.
    I suggest checking what position the coach played as a player. The ones who have friction with point guards are often former point guards.

    .
    :

    "Defense doesn't break down on the help, it breaks down on the recovery." - Chuck Daly

    "The first shot does not beat you." - Chuck Daly

    "To play defense and not foul is an art that must be mastered if you are going to be successful." - Chuck Daly

  25. #21
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,506

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It wouldn't be the first time.



    Good caveat. People also misquote and mis-speak.



    I did note that. One thing missing from the discussion is that a coach is adapting his players to one another, so Collison's ability to play pick and roll, for example, is not the only factor in whether they play it, since he's got to work with a big who can dance with him. (Maybe more to the point, given what the training camp film shows, is whether he's going to play it when a pick is presented...).



    I suggest checking what position the coach played as a player. The ones who have friction with point guards are often former point guards.
    .
    Oh indeed, Larry Brown was notoriously hard on p.g.'s


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  26. #22
    Shooting for the Moon Day-V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    SoBro
    Age
    25
    Posts
    4,307
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    While he wasn't a true full-time PG, I believe Jalen had some issues with Isiah as well, correct?

  27. #23
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,506

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    While he wasn't a true full-time PG, I believe Jalen had some issues with Isiah as well, correct?
    For certain, also I was there the night that Travis Best & Isiah got into it as well.

    Former p.g.'s are usually pretty tough on p.g.'s that play for them.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  28. #24
    How u imawhat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    B-town
    Posts
    5,184

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    I think you can expand it by saying a lot of coaches are tough on their point guards.

    I think of Jerry Sloan (G/F), Phil Jackson (F), Nate McMillan (GF) as being particularly picky with their PGs.

  29. #25
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,708

    Default Re: another DC2 article

    I don't think anyone suggested the whole offense would be changed to best accomadate Collison. The pacers will still run the passing game with a lot of Hibbert at the jhogh post and the point guard giving the ball up early. But they will also run more pick and roll because Collison is here and will also post up Roy more in the low post than they have in the past. But it takes time to put in your entire offense and yes Collison needs to get acclimated to playing without the ball because that is what he will be asked to do more than he did last season. But it sounds like he played without the ball a lot at UCLA.

Similar Threads

  1. Patterson article
    By pacerDU in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 06-17-2010, 10:39 AM
  2. Bill Simmons Clipper article
    By jhondog28 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-11-2009, 08:26 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •