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Thread: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

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    Default Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/web_100909.html


    The FIBA World Championship hasn't exactly been a coming-out party for Danny Granger. In fact, he's been something of a bit player on the international stage.

    Granger was the only player on the U.S. roster that did not appear in the 89-79 victory over Russia today in the quarterfinals in Istanbul, Turkey. It's the second DNP-CD of the event for the Pacers' star, who has averaged 13.2 minutes and 5.8 points, shooting 12-of-29 (.414) overall and 3-of-12 (.250) from the 3-point line in his five appearances. He has seven assists but just six rebounds, the fewest on the team.

    Granger has been stuck behind Andre Iguodala and Rudy Gay in Coach Mike Krzyzewski's rotation. Seeking to find the reasons why, I reached out to media experts that have been covering the U.S. team.

    "I think that defense probably has something to do with it, but it’s also just a numbers game," said John Schuhmann of NBA.com. "There are 12 good players on the roster, and only nine or 10 of them can realistically be in the rotation. In 2008, it was (Carlos) Boozer, (Tayshaun) Prince and (Michael) Redd that didn’t get much playing time.

    "But there could still be an opportunity for Danny to make an impact. If the team needs an offensive boost and Rudy Gay is struggling, I can see Krzyzewski bringing in Danny to put some points on the board. I remember Prince giving the U.S. a lift with a couple of big plays in the gold medal game two years ago in spot duty."

    Chris Sheridan of ESPN.com said he didn't expect much opportunity for Granger because of the depth of the roster.

    "It was down to him and (Rajon) Rondo for the last cut, and Rondo made the decision easy by quitting," Sheridan said. "At this point, Granger and Rudy Gay are somewhat superfluous, and Rudy has been pretty darn good in an energizer role off the bench.

    "Granger was hurt during the lead-up to the tournament, so he never really got to establish himself in a role. There's always one guy on the U.S. team who is an All-Star but rarely plays (see Carlos Boozer, 2008 Olympics), and Granger is that guy this year.

    Fanhouse.com's Chris Tomasson said Granger has been the victim of "a numbers game."

    "Granger is a scorer at forward, and Team USA has Kevin Durant, the NBA scoring leader," said Tomasson. "Plus, Iguodala and Gay are playing well at forward. And Iguodala does more things overall than Granger. It looked coming in as if Granger could slide a good bit to power forward due to Team USA being a bit weak in the post. But Kevin Love has been more efficient than perhaps some believed.

    "Coming to Europe three weeks ago, Team USA's greatest strength looked to be at guard. The guards have been up and down but the forwards have overall been quite solid. So Granger hasn't been able to get big minutes."

    Opportunities are dwindling. The U.S. faces the winner of the Argentina-Lithuania matchup in the semifinals Saturday. The championship game will be played Sunday.

    Fast breaks …


    The Pacers may have been close to acquiring a talented young power forward but a potential three-team deal involving New York and Portland reportedly was squashed by none other than Donnie Walsh of the Knicks, according to Hoopsworld.com. The deal would've brought Anthony Randolph from New York to the Pacers, with Indiana sending a first-round pick to Portland and the Blazers shipping Rudy Fernandez to the Knicks. Walsh reportedly passed because he didn't want to give up on the athleticism, versatility and potential of the 6-11 Randolph.

    After New Orleans voided a contract claiming he failed a physical in mid-July, Luther Head apparently has settled for a non-guaranteed deal with Sacramento, reports Yahoo! Sports. Head's contract with the Hornets was offered by former GM Jeff Bower but rescinded after Bower was replaced by Hugh Weber, citing a failed physical. Head played in 47 games for the Pacers last season, averaging 7.6 points.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    It's the second DNP-CD of the event for the Pacers' star, who has averaged 13.2 minutes and 5.8 points, shooting 12-of-29 (.414) overall and 3-of-12 (.250) from the 3-point line in his five appearances. He has seven assists but just six rebounds, the fewest on the team.
    Right there are the numbers he is a victim of - his own. That, and a lack of defensive play.

    I can't see it being a matter of roster numbers. He is the ONLY player to get TWO DNP-CD's. If it were just a roster matter, he would still get SOME amount of minutes.

    I think, if nothing else, this world tournament is showing that he may be somewhat overvalued by Pacer fans. Remember the NBA players poll where he was voted "most over-rated"?

    Anyone here still think Granger is "Batman"?
    Last edited by Tom White; 09-10-2010 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Nothing good will come of this....

    Granger is either the innocent victim of the evil coach K, or a terrible player that's being exposed.

    Nobody's willing to give any middle ground and admit Granger is very good at certain things, and not very good at others. He just happens to be on a team that emphasizes the things he doesn't do well.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-10-2010 at 08:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Coaches have preferences with skillsets, with players.

    But at the end of the day, Danny was one of the 12 guys picked to represent the US. I hope he considers this opportunity special, instead of worrying about the amount of minutes being played.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    I fail to see why his minutes are even relevant. This is team USA, not team Indiana. Granger is just another player. Getting worried over who's getting minutes is silly.

    When Tayshaun Prince was on the 2008 Olympic team, it never even crossed my mind to be offended that he was the 10th man on the team. I just wanted my country to win the gold. That's just me, though.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-10-2010 at 08:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    What makes me sad , is that it seems like Danny is ALWAYS getting overlooked, so to speak..

    I mean .. yea it was GREAT when he made his first All Star team , but the accolade felt kinda hollow in how he didn't see the floor much , and never really got a chance to do what he does best out on the floor..

    I see this Team USA thing in the same light ..... while it is GREAT that he made the team... it SUCKS that he is relegated to the bench , while players like Gay and Iguadala get all the floortime .. Don't get me wrong both Gay and Iggy are nice players.... Maybe it is just the homer in me , but I think Danny could be a bigger asset out on the court than he is being allowed to be ...

    .
    Danny just needs to get fed up with it , get a chip on his shoulder , and PROVE to the world that he not only BELONGS, but that he deserves to be "the man" .. at least some of the time ..
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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    I don't think it SUCKS or its GREAT that he's on the bench.

    Team USA is 7-0 and in the semifinals. That's all that should matter.

    Granger isn't a Pacer at the current moment, he's an American. So far we're doing very well without him, so until I see otherwise, I'm on board with Krzyzewski's gameplan, which has worked pretty well thusfar.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-10-2010 at 09:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Granger victim of 3 years of bad coaching for Team USA/Conrad Brunner
    Fixed...
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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Team USA doesn't even have a recognizable gameplan on offense. K is basically allowing them to go one-on-one and if all else fails have Durant bail the guys out. Since K is not interested in a postup game he is stressing putting pressure on the defensive end. This pressure leads to turnovers, which lead to fastbreaks which lead to much needed "easy" points. Amazing enough its working. I was listening to the Tony Kornheiser Show last week and on the show he had two basketball guys of the media (Bob Ryan and David Aldridge) basically say there isn't really much evidence of a coaching scheme going on on the offensive side of the ball when it comes to Team USA. They are right. But, hey, USA is undefeated so...whatever. Unfortunately for Granger he is not the ideal guy for applying perimeter pressure on opposing teams. So there is no role for him on this squad. It is what it is.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    There's no interest in a post game because (A) they have no post players and (B) FIBA rules generally frown on post play.

    small-ball is generally how the international game is played. Most of the big men step outside the 3-point line. May as well skip the middle men and start four swingmen.

    Even when USA sent superstar centers to international tournaments, they never really dominated. You can pretty Much maul anybody in the low post.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-10-2010 at 10:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Um, who cares?

    If Danny really wanted to play, he could give a better effort on defense. He should be honored he was given the chance to play.

    I can't believe his minutes are even this big of an issue.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    For me this oppurtunity clearly exposes the fact that we have secretly wanted to slide the other way. Danny is a lazy team defender and an equally lazy rebounder.

    What gets me is that he gets the pass because he scores (although not extremely effective). While Rush gets slammed because he doesn't score, yet he defends (although gets lost in the crazy team defense----alas no more Troy!!!! :dancingapple.

    Rush is a more active rebounder and a more solid one-on-one defender. Yes Brandon needs to be more assertive is shooting and driving with assurance. But our "franchise" player needs to quit Jermaining around and play hard in all facets. Just think Danny was considered the next Matrix/Pippen. Now he is lucky to be the next...

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    I have to agree with Major Cold here....I know it is not a popular opinion but I believe it to be the reality. Granger wants to score, doesn't really care about rebounding or defense. It's actually pretty sad, because he is so gifted and if he was more driven he could really be great. I think Danny has peaked...he is not taking any team deep in the playoffs. I have been thinking this for the past two years, we need to trade him while his stock is high.
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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    There's no interest in a post game because (A) they have no post players and (B) FIBA rules generally frown on post play.

    small-ball is generally how the international game is played. Most of the big men step outside the 3-point line. May as well skip the middle men and start four swingmen.

    Even when USA sent superstar centers to international tournaments, they never really dominated. You can pretty Much maul anybody in the low post.
    Correct. Tim Duncan basically "retired" from FIBA play after the 2004 Olympics because the importance of a postup bigman is greatly reduced and he wasn't getting any calls inside.

    The 2008 Team won gold with basically what was small ball and this current team is a poor man's version of it.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    I'm just happy Danny made the team, great experience for him. I hope it motivates him to become a better player.

    Coach K has put the "team" out there that he thinks well do the best job, I have zero problems with the lineups he is using.

    It's just to hard to compare who's better than who with a team like this, due to roles and team needs.

    Personally from an NBA stand point I would only trade Granger one to one for a few guys on the team. Durant or Rose for sure, I'd have to think about Curry or Westbrook. The rest I don't think I would trade Danny for, especially not Odom or Billups due to age.
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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    I am not worried a bit about Danny's lack of playing time. I think the experience alone will help him improve his game and take it to another level. I am even a bit glad he's not playing much at all because he won't come into camp physically drained from playing on the USA team.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    There's no interest in a post game because (A) they have no post players and (B) FIBA rules generally frown on post play.

    small-ball is generally how the international game is played. Most of the big men step outside the 3-point line. May as well skip the middle men and start four swingmen.

    Even when USA sent superstar centers to international tournaments, they never really dominated. You can pretty Much maul anybody in the low post.
    I have seen enough FIBA over the years. I know how it goes. I also know Coach K and his lack of developing post players as well as his disinterest in pounding the ball in the paint.

    Its amazing that good teams like Spain and Argentina manage to include guys who can post people up and score and yet you keep suggesting that such a style of play is irrelevant. And once again the reason why Team USA doesn't have any post players is because K and Jerry only invited one to the tryouts : Brook Lopez. I'm not including Kevin Love because he is too undersized and doesn't typically score with his back to the basket. Anyway I agree with you that Granger does not have a real role on this team and much of the blame for this must go to Granger himself. But at the same time I'm also arguing that K does not have a scheme for halfcourt offense. You have been looking at a lot of the games yourself and surely you must see by now that the international teams tend to have better halfcout schemes than Team USA.
    Last edited by KennerLeaguer; 09-11-2010 at 12:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    They have better halfcourt chemistry because they have played together a lot longer. You don't just throw 12 guys together and become the Utah Jazz in 2 months.

    Argentina has post players? Who, exactly? Luis Scola spends his time pick on the elbow doing pick and rolls and shooting 15-foot jumpers all game.

    Spain uses the Gasols well, but again they are a pick and roll team. There are very little low post plays, unless one of them manages to get position right under the basket.

    As for coach k not wanting a post up game, have you forgotten Elton Brand? That 1999 Duke team ran low post ISOs %90 of the time down the court and turned Brand into Shaq lite.

    Coach K's brilliance with team USA is his ability to maximize the effectiveness of 12 random players against teams that have been playing together for 5-10 years.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-11-2010 at 10:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    They have better halfcourt chemistry because they have played together a lot longer. You don't just throw 12 guys together and become the Utah Jazz in 2 months.
    You didn't seem to care about that when I was arguing for Coach Larry Brown and what he had to deal with in 2004. Now you want to trot that point out to make a defense of Coach K? That's a tad hypocritical. But that's an argument for another time. I do not think that K 's Duke teams have had a legit halfcourt offense in over a dozen years. His Team USA didn't have legit halfcourt offenses either from 2006 thru 2008. I supposes he coaches by leadership or inspiration because it surely isn't by his halfcourt strategy. He has the best players on his roster and they are use to playing one-on-one. So he just sits back and watches them do just that. Sometimes you can get away with it, sometimes you can't (as in 2006 and twice in 1990).

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    [QUOTE=Jon Theodore;1059530]

    Granger wants to score, doesn't really care about rebounding or defense./QUOTE]


    I got to thinking about this last night. I know why I feel the reason is, and that reason is Jim O'Brien.

    I feel Granger has gotten lazy playing in Jimmy's helter skelter run n gun with little "D" type scheme the last 3 years. Personally, I feel with Murphy gone you will see Granger camped out behind the arc more this year shooting 3's. From 07-08 season to last season, Granger increased his 3 pt shot from 5 to 7 a game. There was a time last season he was shooting 9 per game at around 31%. I look for Granger to shoot around 9 3's per game this coming season.

    Granger hasn't played good defense since his 1st couple of years in the league. Why should he when "D" isn't something but an after thought with Jimmy. Granger isn't a great rebounder or big in asts either. In Jimmy's system, you just need to be a scorer which is exactly what Granger has become, so I'm not surprised at all that Granger isn't getting PT in the World games. My hope is this will open up Granger's eyes, and he decides to work on his overall game to improve his value as a player.

    I like Granger, but I'm not in love with him like so many others are. I'm not adverse to trading Granger who has become a 1 dimensional player for a player who has a more well rounded game. Sorry, but Granger isn't Batman, nor will he ever be. I don't ever feel he'll be an Allstar again either. Too many have just embellished Granger as a player b/c he plays for the Blue N Gold. He's a good player just not as good as many like to think he is.

    In Granger's defense, maybe the best thing for his improvement is getting away from Jimmy. I hate seeing Granger in a 4th year of Jimmy's type system. IMO, I feel it's detrimential to his overall growth as a player. JMOAA.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by KennerLeaguer View Post
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    You didn't seem to care about that when I was arguing for Coach Larry Brown and what he had to deal with in 2004. Now you want to trot that point out to make a defense of Coach K? That's a tad hypocritical.
    Huh?

    That's exactly the reason why Larry Brown was a bad fit. He's a long-term coach. He only knows one way, and that way isn't adjustable to a 3-month time frame. I thought we already went over this.

    But that's an argument for another time. I do not think that K 's Duke teams have had a legit halfcourt offense in over a dozen years.
    11, to be exact. That would be the last time he HAD a premier post player to go to.

    His Team USA didn't have legit halfcourt offenses either from 2006 thru 2008. I supposes he coaches by leadership or inspiration because it surely isn't by his halfcourt strategy.
    Well, He hasn't lost a game in 4 years as team USA coach...so I guess he's made the right choices?

    This obsession with "halfcourt strategy" is stupid. There is plenty of evidence in his brilliant coaching in his unconventional rotations and superb defensive schemes. His stamp doesn't have to be on every little thing they do.

    He has the best players on his roster and they are use to playing one-on-one.
    Just a hint...their best players are one-on-one players....

    So he just sits back and watches them do just that. Sometimes you can get away with it, sometimes you can't (as in 2006 and twice in 1990).
    Right. He lets his players play. Amazing concept. A far cry from the obsessive over-coaching I see going on in this tournament. I wish more coaches would learn to do this.

    In the 2004 Olympics, team USA finished 7th out of 12 teams in %FG, and 9th in %3PT. There's you awesome halfcourt offense at work. Larry Brown tried to coach a FIBA team by NBA rules, and failed miserably.

    In the 2008 Olympics, USA finished 1st in %FG, and 6th in %3PT.

    This year, USA is 2nd (out of 24 teams) in %FG and 3rd in %3PT. Not too bad for a guy that can't coach a halfcourt offense, huh?
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-11-2010 at 10:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Ugh, Granger's a victim of his terrible defense and shot selection. That is it.

    I don't see any indications that his game will improve and it concerns me. He may score a lot more points now, but he's a hollow version of his former self. He's always had a high 3:2 pt shot ratio, but at least he used to make the defense work. Now they don't have to because he just chucks it.

    What concerns me most is that he conceded that Gay and Iggy are better defenders. Granger could be a much better defender than both of them with his length and power. It's all about effort.

    I'd take the efficient, puts pressure on the defense 15 ppg with defensive effort Granger over the current version 10 times out of 10.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    I'd disagree that Ganger has as much "length and power" as Andre Igoudala, let alone more...

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Huh?
    Huh, what? You shot down my theory last time that Brown failed ultimately in 2004 because his players had been playing together for a short time. Now, all of a sudden you think that's a legit excuse for why K's 2010 team looks horrible in its halfcourt offense.

    That's exactly the reason why Larry Brown was a bad fit. He's a long-term coach. He only knows one way, and that way isn't adjustable to a 3-month time frame. I thought we already went over this.
    Brown is much better at TEACHING players than K can ever hope to be. However going back to your point Mr. Long-term Larry Brown seemed to do quite well in 2003 when his team was full of talented veterans. That bunch dominated as much as any of K's teams so far. And that was Brown's first year as head coach of Team USA. That showed he is more flexible then you're giving him credit for. But even if he was as inflexible as you make him out to be and even if he needed more of a long term process, wasn't that supposed to be the plan originally anyhow? Remember that the 2003 team was supposed to play in 2004 as well. But 10 of the 12 guys dropped out. Brown was handed a team in 2004 put together so late they only had about 2 weeks of practice. K has been allowed to work with most of his current players as far back as the summer of 2009. Some even came in for workouts against his Redeem Team in the summer of 2008. K was never handed a bunch of inexperienced misfits. And still even that wasn't enough for K to come up with gold in 2006.

    11, to be exact. That would be the last time he HAD a premier post player to go to.
    Is that Brand you're referring to? If so maybe you don't remember Boozer who came in afterwards. Boozer was on Duke for three seasons and never got the touches he should have. K allowed his guards to jack up threes anytime they wanted.

    Anyway if K didn't have other premier post players since then whose fault is that? He gets top ten recruits each year, including guys who are premier post players coming out of high school. But most of them end up doing next to nothing at Duke. Is that just a case of bad luck in getting guys who were overrated or does K take some of the blame for not being to develop players/make them better?



    Well, He hasn't lost a game in 4 years as team USA coach...so I guess he's made the right choices?
    He didn't coach in 2009 if you are including that year. If you are instead including 2006, well, you're wrong. And frankly his teams in 2007 and 2008 after having a year or two under their belt shouldn't have lost any games. He was the ONLY coach of Team USA to have practically the same roster of NBA professionals to play again the following summer and (and then for a third summer in 2008). Since no other coach in the history of the world ever had such an opportunity, I'm going to suggest that we not yet put his record over these last three summers he coached as one of mankind's greatest achievements. But that's just me.

    This obsession with "halfcourt strategy" is stupid. There is plenty of evidence in his brilliant coaching in his unconventional rotations and superb defensive schemes. His stamp doesn't have to be on every little thing they do.
    You may be right that the halfcourt strategy is stupid. But please stop acting as if K's coaching technique of limited rotations and allowing guys to "do their thing" is brilliant. That's what most NBA coaches do with their rosters and that's increasingly what many of the NCAA coaches at the top program do.

    Just a hint...their best players are one-on-one players....
    Well, that's what I wrote. I simply forgot to add a "d" at the end of the word "use." My point was that he had players who were used to playing one-on-one so he lets them do it. There's not much teamwork required when his teams are on the offensive attack.



    Right. He lets his players play. Amazing concept. A far cry from the obsessive over-coaching I see going on in this tournament. I wish more coaches would learn to do this.
    Only if those coaches can have years to work with the top players in practice and on teams. Otherwise that's going to burn us again when an ingternational team is on its game.

    In the 2004 Olympics, team USA finished 7th out of 12 teams in %FG, and 9th in %3PT. There's you awesome halfcourt offense at work. Larry Brown tried to coach a FIBA team by NBA rules, and failed miserably.
    Of course they played badly considered the situation they found themselves and how they were thrown together. Now use your impressive research skills and come up with the numbers for the Brown-coached 2003 team that was full of veterans and (at the time) better players than those on the 2004 team.

    In the 2008 Olympics, USA finished 1st in %FG, and 6th in %3PT.

    Seriously are you actually going to compare 2008 squad that had been together for three summers with the 2004 team that had been together for as long as a cup of coffee? You do realize that the vast majority of the 2004 guys had never played a minute of international ball before the summer of 2004 and that perhaps half of them had only been around in the NBA for one or two seasons? Are you actually that big of a fan of K to think he was responsible for the better FG% in 2008? You don't think he benefitted from the fact that guys like LeBron, Wade and Carmello got their feet wet in 2004 first? Or that after having them in 2006 and 2007 they were definitely going to be fine-tuned squad by 2008? Are you Dick Vitale or something because its rare that I come across such naked love of Coach K? Not even amongst Duke fans.
    Last edited by KennerLeaguer; 09-11-2010 at 11:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Granger victim of numbers game with Team USA/Conrad Brunner

    Look at the measurements. He has the length over Iggy. But the power is all Andre. He is more of a power wing, with greater leaping ability. Danny is less apt to use lower body, most importantly his hips.

    But Danny is a better scorer.


    Coach K is perfect for international play. One of the maim reasons why he has not jumped to the NBA.

    Boozer could jave dominated more in the low post at Duke. One of the main reasons why he slipped. After Coach K squandered that he really hasnt got that player on the low block. mcBob is yet another player inable to develop a low post game at Duke. But that is mostly on him and his frame.

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