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Thread: Starters?

  1. #51
    Member odeez's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starters?

    Collison
    Dunleavy
    Danny
    Tyler (not sure he will be ready) (Foster or Mcbob here)
    Hibbert
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  3. #52
    This Thing Is Working® O'Bird's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Any small ball team would get killed on the glass. (Which was what I was talking about)

    And honestly, with Roy not being a fantastic rebounder, and us not really having a PF..we're going to get killed on the glass regardless.
    You might be surprised - but it's not necessary to speculate. The two small-ball units that got the most minutes last year were both plus rebounding:

    Watson-Rush-D.Jones-Granger-Hibbert got 50.5% of available rebounds
    Ford-Rush-D.Jones-Granger-Hibbert got 51.5% of available rebounds

    Not exactly rebounding dominance, but most people, like you and me, would expect a small-ball unit to get routinely killed - and instead these small lineups held their own and then some.

    Rebounding isn't just size - in fact a lot of it is speed, getting to the right spot on time; after that you've got to work for the ball, and a lot of that is just will and desire.

    Then, too, a lot of teams play a lot of small ball, so the size differential is not so big when you play it yourself. You could even argue that Orlando plays mostly small ball, and they were fourth in rebounding rate last season (first in defensive).
    :
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  4. #53
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    Default Re: Starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
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    You might be surprised - but it's not necessary to speculate. The two small-ball units that got the most minutes last year were both plus rebounding:

    Watson-Rush-D.Jones-Granger-Hibbert got 50.5% of available rebounds
    Ford-Rush-D.Jones-Granger-Hibbert got 51.5% of available rebounds

    Not exactly rebounding dominance, but most people, like you and me, would expect a small-ball unit to get routinely killed - and instead these small lineups held their own and then some.

    Rebounding isn't just size - in fact a lot of it is speed, getting to the right spot on time; after that you've got to work for the ball, and a lot of that is just will and desire.

    Then, too, a lot of teams play a lot of small ball, so the size differential is not so big when you play it yourself. You could even argue that Orlando plays mostly small ball, and they were fourth in rebounding rate last season (first in defensive).
    :
    Were those our only two units that were over 50% of available rebounds?

    As far as Dwightlando being amongst the league leaders in rebounding, that gets a resounding NO KIDDING from me considering Dwight's elite status as a rebounder. Small ball?????

  5. #54

    Default Re: Starters?

    COLLISON
    DUNLEAVY
    GEORGE
    GRANGER
    HIBBERT

  6. #55
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    Default Re: Starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Were those our only two units that were over 50% of available rebounds?
    Watson-Rush-D.Jones-Murphy-Hibbert 50.0%
    Ford-D.Jones-Granger-Murphy-Foster 51.0%
    Ford-Rush-Dunleavy-Murphy-Hibbert 55.0%

    These units did not play a lot of minutes, though; I wouldn't bet the farm on their rebounding numbers. Ford is a good rebounder for a point guard, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    As far as Dwightlando being amongst the league leaders in rebounding, that gets a resounding NO KIDDING from me considering Dwight's elite status as a rebounder. Small ball?????
    I think that most people would consider Rashard small; he's listed at 215, which is a typical weight for a shooting guard. And yet he played more minutes than Bass and Anderson, his backups, combined.

    Small-ball lineups most often use a big center, preferably a mobile guy who can block shots; that's what Orlando runs the vast majority of the time, and that was also the biggest use of small-ball minutes with Indiana last year, using Hibbert as the lone big.

    Of course, you see all sorts of lineups in a season, but the usual small-ball strategy is to take a guy who's a triple-threat small forward, put him up against a slower 4, and watch the popcorn pop. Lewis isn't that, but he's such a good shooter and has developed a game that he can run off the arc to get into open midrange areas or to the rim - so that it's a difficult matchup if the opponent wants to play a big 4. Boston solved that one, though - and made it look easy, too, confounding all the prognosticators in the process...
    :
    Last edited by O'Bird; 09-11-2010 at 02:25 AM. Reason: Back to the land...
    :

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  7. #56
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    Default Re: Starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by PACERPLAYOFFS View Post
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    COLLISON
    DUNLEAVY
    GEORGE
    GRANGER
    HIBBERT
    like it - dunleavy move PG 2 the 2 and tyler to the 4

  8. #57
    Step aside, King James BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by O'Bird View Post
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    I think that most people would consider Rashard small; he's listed at 215, which is a typical weight for a shooting guard. And yet he played more minutes than Bass and Anderson, his backups, combined.

    Small-ball lineups most often use a big center, preferably a mobile guy who can block shots; that's what Orlando runs the vast majority of the time, and that was also the biggest use of small-ball minutes with Indiana last year, using Hibbert as the lone big.
    Dwight is not your typical center. The point is, unlike nearly every other team...if not all of them, they are fine using a poor defensive player at the 4. Other teams will have a difficult time progressing through the playoffs with a weak front court. All you need to do is look at Boston and LA...both have talented bigs at both the 4 and 5 spot unlike most of the league.
    LeWade are going down.

  9. #58
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    Default Re: Starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Dwight is not your typical center.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The point is, unlike nearly every other team...if not all of them, they are fine using a poor defensive player at the 4.
    I didn't say that Rashard is a poor defensive player, and I don't agree that he is. And I wasn't talking about his individual defense at all, but about team rebounding, half of which is offense, not defense.

    The issue that I was discussing is, does playing a small lineup mean that you get "killed" on the boards? The answer for Orlando is "no." Just as surprising is that the Pacers' most-often used small lineups were (slightly) better at rebounding than their opponents.

    The question I didn't address is the next obvious one: well, why shouldn't you make, for example, Collison/Rush/DJones/Granger/Hibbert your starters (the Pacers' most effective small lineup last season, with Collison instead of Watson - in fact it was the most effective lineup, period, that got significant minutes)? I'm not advocating that, but I think that there are good arguments in favor. Using that group as a kind of fifth-gear lineup when an opponent's starting 4 has been on the floor for a while, for instance, looks like it has potential.

    We saw a while ago in the "Hungry Hungry Hibbert" thread that almost all the playoff teams used a stretch big with sixth-man or more minutes; but most of them used that player off the bench - Orlando is an exception, of course, but the rule tells you something about the strategy that it shares (and sometimes overlaps) with small-ball strategy: you try to wear your opponent down by running to keep up with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Other teams will have a difficult time progressing through the playoffs with a weak front court.
    In what sense do you mean that Orlando's front court is "weak"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    All you need to do is look at Boston and LA...both have talented bigs at both the 4 and 5 spot unlike most of the league.
    Not sure what your point is here; it seems to boil down to "talent wins", which I agree with.

    If you mean that Rashard Lewis is not talented, however, I would disagree. Overpaid, maybe.
    :
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    "Defense doesn't break down on the help, it breaks down on the recovery." - Chuck Daly

    "The first shot does not beat you." - Chuck Daly

    "To play defense and not foul is an art that must be mastered if you are going to be successful." - Chuck Daly

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