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Thread: All-Time Pacers

  1. #26

    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The irony in that statement is that the exact same thing could be said about George McGinnis.

    IMO, Chuck Person belongs on there instead of McGinnis. The rest of the list is fine. Roger Brown and Jermaine O'Neal is a bit of a toss-up. Brown was a glue guy and a winner, but if you're going on individual accomplishments and sheer individual talent, O'Neal is probably the most skilled big man the Pacers have ever had.

    Also, Granger at least right now isn't on the level of at least 3 or 4 different historical Pacers small forwards. He's somewhere between Derrick McKey and Detlef Schrempf if I had to make a list right now.

    I'd go with this as my first 3 teams:

    1st

    C: Mel Daniels
    F: Jermaine O'Neal
    F: Chuck Person
    G: Reggie Miller
    G: Mark Jackson

    2nd

    C: Rik Smits
    F: Roger Brown
    F: George McGinnis
    G: Billy Knight
    G: Don Buse

    3rd

    C: Herb Williams
    F: Dale Davis
    F: Detlef Schempf
    G: Jalen Rose
    G: Vern Fleming
    Do you think that Person was better than Schrempf? I remember Person shooting lots of shots during garbage time when the game was never on the line. Schrempf played on a more competitive team than Chuck and while i never saw McGinnis play for the pacers I believe he was way past his prime to deserve the distinction you give him.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    No Mark Jackson, Peck?
    2nd team

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    2nd
    C- Rik Smits
    F- Billy Knight
    F- Dale Davis (yea I know, so sue me)
    G- Don Buse
    G- Mark Jackson

  3. #28
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    When I saw it, he had Freddie Lewis listed instead of Jax.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    I looked at the all-time list a little differently. Recognizing that the modern game is based on C, PF, SF, SG and PG rather than C, 2Fs, 2Gs, I attempted to base my selections on fitting the lineup to a modern game. I figured that this was the best way to take my ABA-bias out of my selections...but still ended up with 4 players who played at least part of thier careers in the ABA. Recognizing that the lineup is a bit small for modern ball, I went with the following:

    C - Daniels
    PF - McGinnis
    SF - Brown
    SG - Miller
    PG - Buse

    PG was difficult because Jackson was such an extraordinary distributor. But except for that one skill, Buse's all-around skills were much, much better. He was an extraordinary defender, a very good distributor and a very good shooter when left open. Freddy Lewis was also a consideration, but his game lost out in trying to translate it to the modern game for me. Lewis played during a time when teams played 2 guards, 2 forwards and a center. To me, Freddy just wasn't the playmaker that some of the guards that came after him were.

    SG and C were no-brainers.

    PF - McGinnis was the first true PF. Kstat points out that he committed a lot of errors (true), but also fails to mention that 8 of the top 10 turnover producers are members of the hall of fame. In other words, when you are a go to player and the ball is going to go through you on every possession, you are likely to commit more errors than most of your teammates. Person on his best day was not half the player George was in his prime. McGinnis was the fastest Pacer end-to-end, was a very good defensive player and was just a brute on the floor. He was a smoker during an era where the vast majority of players smoked. His decline had a lot more to do with problems with both knees and an ankle, which then progressed into his lower back. Bobby Leonard loved George McGinnis, that is why the Pacers traded for George, to enable him to be on a roster for 2 additonal seasons to gain him his full NBA pension after 10 years. George did not want to play those final two years, but was convinced by Bobby that his minutes would be reduced and that he could play when he was able to play and could sit when he told them the pain was too bad. I know George McGinnis and consider him a friend, but from a team performance perspective, I will readily admit that reacquiring him was one of the Pacer's poorest business decisions. As a human being, I'd say that reacquring him was one of the best acts of respect that I've ever witnessed in sports.

    SF - This was my toughest position to select, but I went with Brown. Simply put, Brown was one of the best scorers that I've ever seen. He could hit the three either setting up or on the move, if you came out to defend him, he not only blew by you, but embarrassed the hell out of you as he was doing it. It was impossible to count the times that defenders ended up sliding backwards on their backsides trying to stop with Brown as he pulled up for quick-stop jumpers. Brown was capable of being a league scoring leader, but unlike many of the other players that led the league, had a lot more capable scorers around him to share the wealth with. At SF, I also considered, Knight (because I couldn't put him ahead of Reggie at SG), Person, English and Schrempf.
    Last edited by beast23; 09-05-2010 at 12:46 AM.

  5. #30
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    While I understand Person was a fan favorite, Im not sure how objective it is putting him in the same breath with guys like McGinnis, Brown, English, Dantley, O'neal, Knight, Mullin, Schrempf, Granger or Artest. All these guys are All-Stars-in most cases multiple times over. No way I personally would select Person over any of those guys in my lineup. Moreover, I would be hard-pressed to select Person over Dale Davis or even Jalen Rose.

    My starting 5 would probably be Daniels, O'neal, Artest, Miller, and Buse.

    I would do so with both ends of the floor in mind. Defensively that lineup would be superb and very balanced and dangerous on the offensive end.

    O'neal over McGinnis and Artest over Brown would be the closest calls...but in both cases defense was the deciding factor. O'neal and McGinnis were both gifted offensively. Both are good defensively, but though I like Big Mac far more than JO, objectivity says JO would bring more to the table defensively-both individually and team. The Rajah was just a fabulous offensive player, however I chose to go with defense over offense-especially with Reggie at the other wing.
    Last edited by cinotimz; 09-05-2010 at 01:36 AM.

  6. #31

    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Dont let Pooh Richardson find this thread!

  7. #32
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    (somewhere right now Chicago J's head just exploded)
    You're outta your mind.



    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  8. #33
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Here's the current version of my all-time roster:

    PG - (8) Jackson, (11) Buse
    SG - (1) Reggie, (5) Rah-jah, (9) Knight
    SF - (6) Rifleman, (10) Granger, (Knight), (12) Rose
    PF - (3) Big Mac, (4) JO
    C - (2) Daniels, (7) Smits

    I think the top-11 are clear.

    As for filling out the 12th man on the roster, I have several thoughts. Neto and Freddie Lewis are deserving, of course, but the ABA teams are already represented by the Big Three.

    Billy Knight represents the early-NBA Pacers. We had some other really good players spend a season in Indianapolis, but Alex English, Adrian Dantley, and John Williamson didn't spend enough time on the Pacers to qualify for my all-time Pacers roster.

    Nobody from 81-86 is eligible, for obvious reasons. A case could be made for Stipo and Fleming surving the dreadful Indiana Buckeyes era and being key players on Rifleman's 1987 playoff team. But by the 1991 season, Vern was a backup and Stipo was retired, and Chuck (a) needed more help, and (b) was our original version of "yes, he's our best player, but we probably need someone better as our best overall player."

    Over the 1990s, one could consider Dale Davis and Jalen Rose in addition to Miller, Jackson and Smits. And since Jalen was the team's top player for a few seasons, including the team's only NBA Finals appearance, he gets to hold onto the #12 spot in spite of only spending a few seasons here.

    The dysfunctional 2000's only merit one member on the team. I know UB probably wants all 12 players from the 2003-04 roster on his all-time team to go with that "61-WINS!! WOOT!" banner. () For my list, however, the guy that was hands-down the best player in the EC in both 2002-03 and 2003-04, finished third in the MVP balloting in 03-04, and "almost" held the most dysfunctional team ever assembled together is the representative. Even if his Pacers career ended badly, his two-year peak was substantially higher than any other NBA-era Pacer has achieved. Reggie is adored for longevity and clutch shots, not because he was ever a top-five player (and he, as has been discussed ad naseum, was rarely a top-three player at his position.)

    Hibbert and Collison have legit chances to move into the top-12 over the next several years. Of course, eight years ago Tinsley and Artest had the same opportunity to do so and they royally ****ed it up, and ****ed up the team too. So it will be fun to see what happens with this young roster. Clearly if the team was just based on Mad Skillz, they'd be in the top-12. But there is much, much more to basketball than Mad Skillz.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  9. #34
    Member BobbyMac's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Well we agree it is subjective. Big Mac & Roger Brown I'm giving way to the legends as I never actually saw Roger play in person and when I saw Big Mac he was a shell of his former self.

    Billy Knight I just thought was better. He was a better scorer and a better rebounder and neither of them played a lick of defense.


    I once aske Slick if he thougt Billy Knight was as good a Roger Brown, He just laughed and said no....kept giggling under his breath for some time after that. Roger simply did what was necessary to win games, he could have averaged 25 easily, but it was more important to win.

  10. #35
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyMac View Post
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    Well we agree it is subjective. Big Mac & Roger Brown I'm giving way to the legends as I never actually saw Roger play in person and when I saw Big Mac he was a shell of his former self.

    Billy Knight I just thought was better. He was a better scorer and a better rebounder and neither of them played a lick of defense.


    I once aske Slick if he thougt Billy Knight was as good a Roger Brown, He just laughed and said no....kept giggling under his breath for some time after that. Roger simply did what was necessary to win games, he could have averaged 25 easily, but it was more important to win.
    Bobby, I hope you understood that I was saying that Billy was better than Chuck Person, not Roger Brown.

    As I said I can only talk about film and legend when it came to Roger however there are testimonials from other players that speak very highly of Roger and his three rings and name in the rafter speak for itself.

    But comparing Billy to Chuck I just thought in their primes that Billy was a better player.

    If you have some tales to tell about Roger Brown I would love to hear them. One of the great joys of my life was listening to ABAdays talk about old players and his eyes would light up whenever he talked about the Rah-Jah.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  11. #36
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Bobby, I hope you understood that I was saying that Billy was better than Chuck Person, not Roger Brown.

    As I said I can only talk about film and legand when it came to Roger however there are testamonials from other players that speak very highly of Roger and his three rings and name in the rafter speak for itself.

    But comparing Billy to Chuck I just thought in their primes that billey was a better player.

    If you have some tales to tell about Roger Brown I would love to hear them. One of the great joys of my life was listening to ABAdays talk about old players and his eyes would light up whenever he talked about the Rah-Jah.
    I don't think Chuck was much better than BK. But I saw Chuck single-handedly carry the Pacers to victory more often than Billy did. Billy is securely in my second five, and while Chuck would be my starting SF, he's also in the second five.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #37
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I don't think Chuck was much better than BK. But I saw Chuck single-handedly carry the Pacers to victory more often than Billy did. Billy is securely in my second five, and while Chuck would be my starting SF, he's also in the second five.
    Chuck was flamboyant that is for sure. I guess my problem with Chuck was I saw him shoot us out of games as often as I saw him shoot them into one.

    However I am not taking the ball kicking in the united center into consideration, if I did that it would probably jettison him to the top of the heap.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  13. #38
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Technically, it was the old Stadium, not The UC.

    And yes, with Chuck there was a downside. For that matter, I've seen Reggie shoot us out of a few games, too. That happens when your best offensive player is more of a "shooter" than a "scorer".
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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