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Thread: All-Time Pacers

  1. #1

    Default All-Time Pacers

    Athlon Sports just came out with its NBA magazine edition for the 2010-2011 season. Inside they do a top five all-time breakdown for each team. Actually its probably more like a top all-time starting five since the magazine stick by a rigid pattern of having two guards, tow forwards and one center for each All-Time teams. So if you are a team/franchise in which three of your top five all time players were guards or three of your all-time players were centers, you’re out of luck and won’t get an accurate representation.

    With that out of the way here’s the list for the Pacers:

    G- Mark Jackson
    G-Reggie Miller
    F-Jermaine O’Neal
    F-George McGinnis
    C-Mel Daniels


    What do you Pacers' fans think of the list? I’m surprised Smits wasn’t chosen although I'll admit I’m mostly ignorant when it comes to Mel Daniels' career.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    If Ron didn't have issues from the neck up, I'd say he belongs there instead of Jermaine. Honestly, I wish Danny would just get back to wanting to be a good defender again, and then I could easily say put him there instead of either of those two.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Just my 2 cents but I would replace O'Neal with Roger Brown & give serious thought to Don Buse instead of Jackson.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    You forgot about Damon Bailey!

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Freddie Lewis ahead of Buse, but it's close between him and Jackson.

    Rajah definitely belongs ahead of O'Neal.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Tim Hardaway?

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    If Ron didn't have issues from the neck up, I'd say he belongs there instead of Jermaine.
    The irony in that statement is that the exact same thing could be said about George McGinnis.

    IMO, Chuck Person belongs on there instead of McGinnis. The rest of the list is fine. Roger Brown and Jermaine O'Neal is a bit of a toss-up. Brown was a glue guy and a winner, but if you're going on individual accomplishments and sheer individual talent, O'Neal is probably the most skilled big man the Pacers have ever had.

    Also, Granger at least right now isn't on the level of at least 3 or 4 different historical Pacers small forwards. He's somewhere between Derrick McKey and Detlef Schrempf if I had to make a list right now.

    I'd go with this as my first 3 teams:

    1st

    C: Mel Daniels
    F: Jermaine O'Neal
    F: Chuck Person
    G: Reggie Miller
    G: Mark Jackson

    2nd

    C: Rik Smits
    F: Roger Brown
    F: George McGinnis
    G: Billy Knight
    G: Don Buse

    3rd

    C: Herb Williams
    F: Dale Davis
    F: Detlef Schempf
    G: Jalen Rose
    G: Vern Fleming
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-04-2010 at 02:02 PM.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Dale Davis should be considered, and/or Jeff Foster. Its not all about offensive statistics and those two players brought a helluva lot to the court.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    I'm going to pretend you didn't just put Dale Davis and Jeff Foster in the same sentence.

    Dale Davis has choked better players than Jeff Foster.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-04-2010 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Dale Davis has choked better players than Jeff Foster.
    !!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    The irony in that statement is that the exact same thing could be said about George McGinnis.
    what?????

    Big Mac's prime was short for a lot of resaons but he was never a headcase. Too much junk food and, as I recall, a fondness for cigarettes and maybe some booze was his downfall after seven straight 20+/10+ years. That 29.8/14.3 with 6.3 assists year made his price too high. I cried like a baby when he jumped to the Sixers.

    Ron Artest in his prime was a poor imitation of George even if Ron were sane, and George didn't disappear in the clutch.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 09-04-2010 at 03:54 PM.
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    I was referring to his one-court meltdowns rather than his off-court ones. The guy was a turnover waiting to happen, and usually at the worst possible time.

    McGinnis was one of those guys that was often his own worst enemy. When he got to the NBA, that doomed him as much as his lack of conditioning.

    You could make a legit argument that McGinnis was the most turnover-prone player in the history of basketball. It wasn't because he was a bad player, either. The guy had mental issues when the game was slowed down and he was forced to think. He had a bad habit of doing everything 1-on-1 in pressure situations.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-04-2010 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Looking at the list of 32 nba/aba players with more career turnovers than George, not all of them had longer careers. He did turn it over, but that comes with the full-court style they played.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ov_career.html
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    Looking at the list of 32 nba/aba players with more career turnovers than George, not all of them had longer careers. He did turn it over, but that comes with the full-court style they played.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ov_career.html
    He didn't just turn it over somewhat. He led the entire league in turnovers, 3 of the 4 complete seasons he played with the Pacers. He holds the top three single season records for turnovers, including a whopping 422-turnover campaign that nobody outside of McGinnis himself has come within 50 of since.

    You can't pass McGinnis's turnover issues off as a product of the system when the next-sloppiest player in the entire league had 78 fewer turnovers.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-04-2010 at 04:50 PM.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    and George didn't disappear in the clutch.
    I don't remember Ron disappearing in the clutch. I remember JO disappearing and us going to Ron as the better option.
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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    It's really so hard to judge things like this when you go across generations and in this case entire leagues. I mean while Mel Daniels certainly would be a player in the NBA and a starter would he have been a star? I don't know and neither does anyone else, I mean we can speculate but it's all just a guess.

    With that in mind though I will attempt to make my own.

    1st
    C- Mel Daniels
    F- Roger Brown
    F- George McGinnis
    G- Reggie Miller
    G- Freddie Lewis

    2nd
    C- Rik Smits
    F- Billy Knight
    F- Dale Davis (yea I know, so sue me)
    G- Don Buse
    G- Mark Jackson

    3rd
    C- Jermaine O'Neal
    F- Danny Granger
    F- Clark Kellogg (somewhere right now Chicago J's head just exploded)
    G- Ricky Sobers
    G- Johnny Davis


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    PG: Flip Murray
    SG: Andre Owens
    SF: Duane Ferrell
    PF: Ike Digou
    C: Zan Tabak

    6th Man: Mark Pope

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    It's really so hard to judge things like this when you go across generations and in this case entire leagues. I mean while Mel Daniels certainly would be a player in the NBA and a starter would he have been a star? I don't know and neither does anyone else, I mean we can speculate but it's all just a guess.

    With that in mind though I will attempt to make my own.

    OK, while I realize these things are mostly arbitrary, I have to know what twisted logic you have for not ranking Chuck person as one of the top six Pacer forwards of all time...

    Mind you, I have been dumping on Person since before this place was ever created. And I'm taking Person's side here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    OK, while I realize these things are mostly arbitrary, I have to know what twisted logic you have for not ranking Chuck person as one of the top six Pacer forwards of all time...

    Mind you, I have been dumping on Person since before this place was ever created. And I'm taking Person's side here.
    Well we agree it is subjective. Big Mac & Roger Brown I'm giving way to the legends as I never actually saw Roger play in person and when I saw Big Mac he was a shell of his former self.

    Billy Knight I just thought was better. He was a better scorer and a better rebounder and neither of them played a lick of defense.

    Dale is obviously Dale so if you want to throw him in there I probably would disagree but I am not so stubborn as to say that I am not seeing what I want to see there.

    Kellogg obviously had his career cut short but in the two seasons he played I thought he was very good and better than Chuck.

    Danny is getting his nads kicked in lately for his lack of defensive effort and he deserves it but at one time he was a pretty good defender and scorer. Chuck was just a scorer.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Well we agree it is subjective. Big Mac & Roger Brown I'm giving way to the legends as I never actually saw Roger play in person and when I saw Big Mac he was a shell of his former self.

    Billy Knight I just thought was better. He was a better scorer and a better rebounder and neither of them played a lick of defense.

    Dale is obviously Dale so if you want to throw him in there I probably would disagree but I am not so stubborn as to say that I am not seeing what I want to see there.

    Kellogg obviously had his career cut short but in the two seasons he played I thought he was very good and better than Chuck.

    Danny is getting his nads kicked in lately for his lack of defensive effort and he deserves it but at one time he was a pretty good defender and scorer. Chuck was just a scorer.

    I was far more amused with the selections of Ricky Sobers and Johnny Davis than any of those guys. Knight is a no-brainier and Kellogg is understandable. I can see the logic behind Granger as well.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-04-2010 at 08:03 PM.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    Yea our back court history leaves a lot to be desired. I almost threw John Long out there or Super John Williamson.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    I would have understood John Long more than Ricky Sobers.

    Hell, I'd have understood Haywoode Workman more than Johnny Davis.
    Last edited by Kstat; 09-04-2010 at 08:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    I would have understood John Long more than Ricky Sobers.

    Hell, I'd have understood Haywoode Workman more than Johnny Davis.
    Meh, Ricky was a hell of a player when he was here. Built like a linebacker and defended like a wolverine. I thought the combo of the Davis/Sobers was actually very good for us for that short time. Trading him for Mikey Johnson just never made sense to me but it may have been Ricky's desire to move on.

    Davis by himself, yea I never thought much of him but I guess I was going on my memory of the two of them together. In fact I could see an argument fo the good Jamaal Tinsely being included in that list. He just had more bad overall than good, but when he was good he was actually pretty good.

    With Woody I figured I was only going to be allowed one sentimental favorite.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    If you wanted to go with a guard that was really good for a short period of time, Michael Williams might have been a better pick.

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    Default Re: All-Time Pacers

    No Mark Jackson, Peck?

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