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Thread: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

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    Member pacers74's Avatar
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    Default Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market


    It looks like Atlanta is getting scared they are going to lose Horford. I bet he wants to test the free market and see what he could get. I hope he doesn't sign a new contract before next summer.

    Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    The Hawks would prefer that Al Horford doesn't hit the free agent market
    next summer.
    Horford can become a restricted free agent after the 2010-11 season.
    "The Hawks would prefer he not test the market because they know full well he'd be coveted from sea to shining sea," wrote the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
    The issue is that Jamal Crawford is looking for a contract extension and there have been reports that he'll request a trade if he doesn't receive one.


    Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_ar...#ixzz0y70QUw6G

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    lol do they have enough money to retain him after giving JJ such a ridiculous contract?
    follow me @TruenoPanda - lets talk Pacers!

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Trade him here. BAM. Problem solved

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    Remember #31 dohman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    If we really want a good power forward this is bad news for us.

    I am very anxious how horford performs this year. He has progressed nicely every year and I think will be a absolute stud here in a season or two.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    The Hawks realize he is the backbone of their team. Take Horford away (and not add anything to replace him) and they don't make the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    The Hawks don't want Al Horford to hit the free agent market? Really?

    In other news, water is wet and boobs are good.
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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Do you blame them? He certainly is a player they would want to keep. If he did test the market he would get offers that might push beyond what Atlanta can afford. I like him a lot, he is a great player, would love for him to play for the Pacers.
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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Here's the full blog from AJC.com ( which gives more context when it comes to what to do with Crawford and therefore indirectly affecting Horford ):

    http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-bl...k_bradley_blog

    Mark Bradley
    Another Hawks dilemma: Pay Jamal Crawford or dump him?
    7:44 am August 30, 2010, by Mark Bradley


    An unsatisfying offseason has the potential to turn unsavory. In the same summer the Hawks made Joe Johnson the priciest free-agent signing and Larry Drew the cheapest head-coaching hire, they must now deal with Jamal Crawford. This isn’t what any doctor — from Dr. J to Dr. Jack Ramsey — would have ordered.

    According to Gary Washburn of the Boston Globe, Crawford and his agent are expected to meet with general manager Rick Sund this week. Crawford is thought to want one of two things: To sign a contract extension before the new season commences or to be traded forthwith. Given that his was the happiest Hawks story of a season that ended unhappily, Crawford must be taken seriously. Given that these are the Hawks, who are so cheap they haven’t yet fleshed out their roster, he shouldn’t hold his breath.

    Yes, cheap. Even after sinking $120 million into Joe Johnson, the Hawks keep giving us reason to doubt their long-avowed Commitment To Excellence. They could have hired an established NBA head coach to replace Mike Woodson and wound up promoting Drew, who’d been Woodson’s assistant all along. They could have spent significant money to find another big man, and instead they’ve attempted to make do with Josh Powell and another episode of the Jason Collins Saga. (For late tuners-in, Collins was on the Hawks’ roster all last season, though not so you noticed.)

    It’s unclear what Crawford really thinks is apt to happen if he does deliver a pay-me-more-or-trade-me-now demand. Because the Hawks aren’t apt to pay anyone more. Public statements notwithstanding, the Atlanta Spirit seems uninterested in paying one in-the-red cent of luxury tax. Beyond that, there’s a more pressing matter: What to do with Al Horford, who means even more to this franchise?

    Horford can become a restricted free agent at season’s end. The Hawks would prefer he not test the market because they know full well he’d be coveted from sea to shining sea. If any Hawk is apt to receive a contract extension before Halloween, it’s Horfy. There’s almost no chance two Hawks will be offered preseason extensions at this late date.


    So, if Sund doesn’t hand Crawford a new contract, what does the GM do? Trade him? Even though any attempt to shed a disgruntled player creates a buyer’s market? Even though the Hawks would be pressed to get anything comparable to Crawford in return? Even though the strength of this team headed into 2010-11 figured to be its continuity?

    On the other hand … do you want a disgruntled player in a locker room not overrun with vocal leaders? (Horford is the Hawk most apt to speak, and if he chooses not to accept an extension he’ll be facing contractual issues of his own.) The issue of Johnson’s impending free agency became a major story last season, and Crawford is 10 times more talkative than J.J.

    Yes, the Hawks did draft a shooting guard in Jordan Crawford, but 26 players were taken ahead of him and there’s no assurance he’s not the 21st Century Roy Marble. This rookie cannot be seen as rotation-ready, meaning the Hawks can’t just trade one J. Crawford and hand his workload — the NBA’s sixth man of the year averaged 31 minutes a night — to another J. Crawford.

    There was a time when the Hawks seemed a rousing success story: A team of young guys growing up together and learning to win. What we’re seeing is that NBA success carries a higher and higher price. A franchise cannot hold its core together for years on end without paying dearly, and paying dearly essentially means overpaying. The Hawks overpaid Johnson because they had no real alternative: To lose him would have meant losing much of the credibility they’ve spent the past decade trying to re-establish.

    The price for credibility, alas, was flexibility. The Hawks have almost none. To give Jamal Crawford what he wants would be throwing more big money at a shooting guard already past 30 in the same offseason that has seen them lavish a six-year contract on a 29-year-old who plays the same position. To trade Crawford would be to weaken the team he helped lift from 47 victories to 53. There might be a happy ending to this latest Hawks tempest, but I’ll be darned if I see it.
    To me, this is an easy dilemma to fix. Trade Crawford for another Expiring contract and whatever assets they can get and then ( if prompted to by Horford ) give an extension to Horford while hoping that you don't low-ball him enough to leave him open to "testing the market".

    Anything short of a "Near MAX" contract extension coming from the Hawks and you'd think that Horford would simply say "thanks, but no thanks...I'll take my chances on the 2011-2012 FA Market". I know that many of you don't think that he's worth a MAX Contract....but I'm pretty sure that some Team will offer him a Near MAX to MAX level contract if he becomes a FA. Other then the Pacers, I can see the Knicks offering him a Near MAX to MAX level contract. He'd be a solid fit next to Amare and could fit into D'Antoni's offense/defense.

    I doubt it happens...but I'm hoping that the Hawks buckle and give an extensino to Jamal Crawford....it would just make it that much more difficult for them to offer Horford an extension...much less match anything that any other Team can offer.
    Last edited by CableKC; 08-30-2010 at 02:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    How much does Crawford want? He is price is probably more than we would want to spend. He is like 30 years old, but he can score.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers74 View Post
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    How much does Crawford want? He is price is probably more than we would want to spend. He is like 30 years old, but he can score.
    He wants more then we can afford to pay. I don't know if the Hawks are cheapskates....which I suspect that they are now that they have tied up a huge amount of $$$ with Joe Johnson....but if a Player wanting an extension ( something every Player pretty much wants before the potential 2011 Lockout ) doesn't think that he's getting paid what he thinks he's worth....then it's a safe bet to assume that he thinks he's worth more then he really is. Crawford is a solid scorer....but he's more of a SG then he is a PG. I wouldn't pay him more then the going rate for a "1st Guard off the bench on a Playoff level Team" or a "Decent Starting SG on a lottery Team" on the Free Market....maybe $5 to 6 mil a year for 3 or 4 seasons?

    Regardless, I wouldn't want him.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    I think he making something like 10 mil this year.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    I'd be offering the max if I were the Pacers and Al should know that someone will offer that going into any talks with Atlanta.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    This all comes down to players wanting contracts before next season's impending bargaining agreement which will surely lower player contracts and years on the contracts I'm sure for teams to cover their own asses. The worst that could happen for the players is that the owners decide they seriously want it to become like the NFL where contracts aren't guaranteed by the team.

    So I could see Horford getting an extension before the season starts for that reason, Crawford not so much, hes much more expendable.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Horford can become a restricted free agent at season’s end. The Hawks would prefer he not test the market because they know full well he’d be coveted from sea to shining sea. If any Hawk is apt to receive a contract extension before Halloween, it’s Horfy. There’s almost no chance two Hawks will be offered preseason extensions at this late date.

    Al we promise if you come here we'll make sure our writers never call you "Horfy"

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    I still don't think Horford is a realistic option, but seeing as how he is by far the most attractive potential free agent next season, I can't help but wonder if it would be worth it to offer him the max in the hopes that Atlanta wouldn't match. I don't think he is a max player, but he would be such a great fit for the Pacers. Solid defender, a true PF who can easily slide over and eat minutes at C, good rebounder, high character guy, winner. He's also a guy I wouldn't expect to dog it once he gets paid.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Max contract for him according to shamsports is $13+ million, which I would easily do.

    Jamal Crawford is stating that if he doesn't get a good extension offer, he's going to request a trade. (He's currently at $10 million, but age is 30.)

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Quote Originally Posted by MyFavMartin View Post
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    Max contract for him according to shamsports is $13+ million, which I would easily do.
    I've seen this mentioned in this way before, and it is a very misleading way to present the "max" contract.

    (All of the below is under current CBA rules, and I don't know what the new CBA will do to this.)

    The first year of a max contract is $13.6mm, but the max contract that we could offer another team's free agent would be 5 years with annual raises of 8% of the first year, or about $1.1mm per year. It would look like this:

    $13.6
    $14.7
    $15.8
    $16.9
    $18.0

    Total $78.9mm, with an average salary of $15.8mm.

    It's not uncommon to work out an S&T in these instances (happened with Bosh, Boozer, and James) in order to pay the max for "own" free agent, which would be 6 yrs with 10.5% raises, and would look like this:

    $13.6
    $15.0
    $16.5
    $17.9
    $19.3
    $20.7

    Total $103.0mm with an average salary of $17.2mm

    I'd agree that an average salary of around $13mm is palatable, but Horford is not a max player by any stretch of the imagination, and the kindest way I can describe investing $80-100mm in him would be "incredibly foolish."

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    The problem with all of this is that Crawford won't get a contract because it is imperative that the Hawks sign Horford. Horford wouldn't kill their salary structure, but they would absolutely be relegated to draft picks and minimum contracts if they resign him. They will probably try to facilitate a trade for Crawford, where they get a couple of players in return for his 10m. He is not essential to what they do, but they would need someone capable of scoring off the bench. And Crawford's value is probably as high as it will ever get being an expiring and coming off a 6th man of the year award.

    Horford and Joe Johnson are the two players on the front page of the Hawks website. I could see a lot of other players traded before they consider not signing him. Especially with a restriction.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    I'd agree that an average salary of around $13mm is palatable, but Horford is not a max player by any stretch of the imagination, and the kindest way I can describe investing $80-100mm in him would be "incredibly foolish."
    I totally agree with your evaluation. I think it is very difficult for a team to put a dollar figure on a player that has never played a game in its uniform. It requires an accurate assessment of how that player will mesh with its players and whether the player will continue to be as productive playing with its players and within its offensive/defensive schemes.

    It would be easy to evaluate a Wade, LeBron or Kobe. You just pay them the max and call it a day. But with a player that should not be valued at that level it becomes more difficult. You must come up with what you think he is worth, and more importantly, what you think it will take to actually sign him. And, this process is even more difficult with restricted free agents because of their relatively few years of experience and the ability of the current team to match offers.

    But it does seem like an average of $11M to $13M for Horford would make it worthwhile. But will that get him? If not, what does it take to get Landry? Or West if he opts out?

    This factor is exactly why I support going after a player like Jason Thompson right now that has somewhat proven himself but still has 2 years left on his rookie contract. That way you have reduced your numbers on the roster because it will probably take a 2-for-1, 3-for-2 or even 3-for-1 to get it done, and you throw in draft choices to sweeten the deal. After such a deal, you have not affected your cap space and you can still go after a top-notch PF FA next summer. The good thing is you won't be nearly as desperate... if you get one fine, if not you have at least one young, developing PF in Thompson/Hansbrough while keeping your cap space or possibly diverting focus to acquire a decent SG instead.
    Last edited by beast23; 08-30-2010 at 05:27 PM.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Wait, Horford doesn't even stretch the floor. How can he be that valuable...

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    If the Hawks offer Horford big money, he'll stay. If they low ball him, he may want to test the market.

    They're a good young playoff team. Atlanta is a nice warm city, so they're the front runner

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    I'd love to have Horford but not at a max contract. This is where I hope the new cba makes a difference when it's in place. Right now max contracts are given out to good players when they should be given to franchise players only. A hard cap would go a long way toward stopping this.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Wait, Horford doesn't even stretch the floor. How can he be that valuable...
    He was 100% from 3 point range in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I'd love to have Horford but not at a max contract. This is where I hope the new cba makes a difference when it's in place. Right now max contracts are given out to good players when they should be given to franchise players only. A hard cap would go a long way toward stopping this.
    I think the max raises are a concern more than a hard cap. A hard cap with guaranteed salaries would face resistance from front offices, ownership and the players IMO. With the raises at 10.5%, it drives contracts through the roof in the later years of the deals. No one is complaining that much when thinking about Horford at 13M. Nobody wants to pay him 20+M and for good reason. IMO, the max raises should be set at 5%, with a clause for players with 8+ years with the same team raising it to 7%. Similar to the veto clause for players.

    This would make that 6 year deal starting out at 13.6M look like this:

    13.6
    14.3
    15.0
    15.7
    16.4
    17.1

    That is a much more reasonable salary for the league and owners. Players become untradable because of the raises currently beign handed out. It would solve a lot and players would object a lot less to that than reducing salaries more on the front end. It is still a 6 year, $92.10M deal. If the collective bargaining agreement takes a 10% reduction in starting salary, it would establish the new max for a player with Horfords experience at $12.2M.

    12.2
    12.8
    13.4
    14.0
    14.6
    15.2

    6 years, 72.2M ---> Much better and still an assload of money for the players. That also saves the team roughly 35M on a max deal. You don't think Washington and Orlando would want to be paying their Max guys only 72M?

    Sorry if my math is off. Count, any revisions to my point?

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    Default Re: Hawks Don't Want Horford To Test Market

    As to the squeeze being put on by Crawford, I think it will force the Hawks to trade Josh Smith. I think they can get more for him. He is a beast and I don't think the hawks want to trade him, but when looking at the roster, Horford wants to play PF. That pushes either Marvin Williams or Josh Smith to the bench. Both are excellent defenders. Both are Forwards that can play either position. Josh Smith gets paid 50% more. Neither is much of a scorer. Williams is a better shooter, with Smith better at slashing. In regards to the future cap situation of that team, they need to alleviate one long term contract to guarantee they keep Horford around. You don't let young bigs walk away, especially with what he brings to the table. They also need scoring just like Crawford provides them. I think we could see both he and Horford extended and Josh Smith traded because they could get more monetary relief and more assets in return.

    I would rather try to trade them Dunleavy and Solo with a future first rounder for Smith. Solo gives them another center to put with Horford. Plus, they like him in Atlanta. Dunleavy is a low-risk high-reward player for this year. They don't expect much as an expiring, but he could be really productive with Crawford on the second team. They get a solid first round pick, which will be helpful to their cap situation over the next 5 years while still adding talent.

    Smith fits this team well because of the rebounding and athleticism he brings. I think he would do a lot for Collison with his movement and if Collison does get hung up in the lane a little he will go get a lob pass for a dunk. He crashes the lane. He plays great defense. Blocks shots and is long on defense. Offensively, he is getting better because his jump shot has improved. That is not what you want to rely on him for though. He would be great at the pick and roll both offensively and defensively. I think he is a great compliment to Hibbert on both ends of the floor.

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