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Thread: What are we wanting from Rush.

  1. #51
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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    it was a response to someone who said brandon was best player on team i said danny grannger then he said danny didnt play good enoght D i was just proving a point that rush wasnt the best
    Ok, whatever was going on in your head wasn't the same as what was written down.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Someone on the team will get more rebounds this upcoming season. From what I've seen these past two years, I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon averaged six a game. What I want from him is more good shot attempts, that's all. I think and hope Collison will provide these.

  3. #53

    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    There are a lot of fair comments in this thread. The only thing I see missing is recognition that Brandon is a workhorse. With 2491 minutes last year, he played the most minutes of any Pacer and was 25th among NBA guards for total minutes. That part of his game deserves respect.

    I hope he stays healthy while improving on the aspects already mentioned.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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  5. #54
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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    darren collison is the best "ALL AROUND" player best defense offensve combo if thats what your talking about and best passer
    I'd like to see Collison play a lot more to verify this. However, Collison, no matter what he does, is always going to have defensive limitations due to his size.

    The fantastic thing about Rush is that he has virtually no physical limitations when guarding other SG's.

    Quote Originally Posted by judicata View Post
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    Third, defense is "easy." At least that is the common perception. You have to be a decent athlete with enough length and a lot of heart to be a great defensive player. We've seen a number of offensive stars knuckle up and become pretty damn good defensive players as well. Not so much in the other direction.

    Think about the inverse. Does anyone think that Monta Ellis or Amare or any other athletic and talented offensive star can't be a pretty good defender in this league? I think they can, and maybe its a myth (or Jordan's fault) but it certainly feels that way.
    Watch Ray Allen in the playoffs for complete verification of what you're saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by judicata View Post
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    Don't take this as an endorsement that basketball does not need defense, or that Rush's defense isn't valuable: that isn't my point at all. Its just not nearly valuable enough to ignore the offense of Rush where (1) we already have another defensive SG, (2) we have other talented wings that need some burn, and (3) he has gotten ample opportunity to develop his game, and somehow seems to take a step back every time he takes a step forward.

    Anyway, I know there are some compelling arguments the other way, so lets hear them!
    1. Rush's offense and defense are better than D. Jones. The only offensive weapon that Jones has is aggression. He's often a ball-stopper and a black hole.

    2. Who? A healthy Dunleavy deserves minutes over Rush, but we haven't see that in 2.5 years. Paul George is a 20 year old who didn't score a ton at Fresno State. Lance Stephenson may or may not be on the team next season. Rush has been, by far, the 2nd best wing player on the team over the last 2 seasons.

    3. I can't really argue with this other than to say that Rush seems content being something other than what most Pacers fans really want him to be (and, to a certain extent, what the Pacers need him to be). Everybody wants him to be Pippen-SG or Reggie-2, but he's more content to be Bruce Bowen or Eric Snow-SG.

    I believe that Rush will take a step forward this year as long as Ford is not on the court much. He plays terribly with Ford, for whatever reason. The player pair stats aren't available for last season, but in '08-'09 the Rush-Ford combo was one of the worst on the team.

    What I really want from Rush is for him to develop a mean streak. I'm fine with him playing excellent defense, shooting 40% from the arc, and averaging 12 ppg. I don't care about his stats at all. I would like him to trip Kobe in the playoffs, stick his foot under guys as they take jumpers, and "accidentally" punch guys in the nuts while fighting through picks. Great defensive players aren't just guys who are physically and mentally capable, they are also guys who are either intimidating (Ron Artest) or extremely annoying (Bruce Bowen).

    Sadly, what I want from Rush might be just as unrealistic as what everybody else wants.

    Also, I'll gladly sign on for more and better free throw shooting.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

    - Salman Rushdie

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    CONSISTANCY & AGRESSIVENESS.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by focused444 View Post
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    As my former squad leader told me in Iraq "If you're going to make a mistake do it at full speed without hesitation."

    I personally think Brandon's biggest problem is his apprehensiveness. Everyone makes mistakes. I want to see him be more decisive, come out of his shell, and be confident in his actions on the offensive end. When I see him make mistakes due to hesitation it irks me way more than a full speed mistake.

    I may be reading to much into this as he is still young. Chicago J wrote, in another thread I can't recall, they said the same of a young Reggie being shy once upon a time.
    I think a real good pg (crossed fingers) gets him the ball in the right position and often on the move, where he doesn't have to think, he just uses those wonderfully fast twitch muscles of his and gets it up. Get it to him on the run, in the paint and he'll get to the line a lot more.
    he's NOT a throw it to him, create his own shot guy.
    Not yet anyway.
    He HAS the outside shot to make them play him tight AND the quicks to get around them when they do.
    He's just got to do it more consistantly.
    He really WAS doing that a lot more at the end of the season when the team was playing very well.
    He seems to thrive when the whole team is playing well.


    PS - Brandon shot better 3% last year than Reggies career avg.
    Last edited by MLB007; 08-21-2010 at 09:45 AM.

  9. #57
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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    The fantastic thing about Rush is that he has virtually no physical limitations when guarding other SG's.
    ...and he's big enough to hold his own with a lot of 3's.



    1. Rush's offense and defense are better than D. Jones. The only offensive weapon that Jones has is aggression. He's often a ball-stopper and a black hole.
    Agreed. Rush is just an all around better player than Dahntay. Dahntay is a nice, tenacious 15 minute garbage guy, but he's a poor offensive player, and only an average or slightly better defender.

    2. Who? A healthy Dunleavy deserves minutes over Rush, but we haven't see that in 2.5 years. Paul George is a 20 year old who didn't score a ton at Fresno State. Lance Stephenson may or may not be on the team next season. Rush has been, by far, the 2nd best wing player on the team over the last 2 seasons.
    I think Rush has already passed Dunleavy - at least what I expect out of Dunleavy going forward - and George will have to make a huge leap to get there. It seems to me that Rush has pretty much locked up the starting 2 (small wing) slot, and he's not going to be challenged (assuming he avoids the aforementioned pooping.)

    However, I'm not sure that Rush has reached the level that Daniels or even Jack played on a consistent basis yet. He should surpass both, and he should have done it by now.

    3. I can't really argue with this other than to say that Rush seems content being something other than what most Pacers fans really want him to be (and, to a certain extent, what the Pacers need him to be). Everybody wants him to be Pippen-SG or Reggie-2, but he's more content to be Bruce Bowen or Eric Snow-SG.
    I think this oversimplifies the argument a bit, much like the guys earlier who were explaining dissatisfaction with Rush away by saying defense was undervalued and that fans were shallow.

    I never expected Reggie or Pippen, and I don't expect Bowen or Snow. He simply will never be good enough for the first two, and he doesn't have the mental make up for the last two.

    My problem with Rush is that he sometimes seems to be content with having no responsibility, whatsoever. I can never quite put my finger on it, but, with rare exception, I'm always left thinking that Brandon was less than he should have been in any game. This is certainly more pronounced on offense, but it's true on defense, as well. He is a natural defender, but not a lock down guy, and he still is iffy in his team rotations.

    Overall, I would certainly keep Rush over guys like Murphy, Dunleavy, Dahntay, and some others, because the player he is is better than the players they are. However, I tend to both respect and trust Rush less than guys like that, because I believe those guys are as good as they can make themselves, while I think Rush is considerably less than he can be.

    I believe that Rush will take a step forward this year as long as Ford is not on the court much. He plays terribly with Ford, for whatever reason. The player pair stats aren't available for last season, but in '08-'09 the Rush-Ford combo was one of the worst on the team.
    Side note: I hate 82games.com. It was fascinating at first, but they're too tight with their data, and it's too processed. Hoopdata, Basketball Value, and Basketball-Reference all are much more user friendly, and have plenty of great information.

    It's interesting you comment on this, because I just got done with a Play-by-play mapping. Here's a taste as it relates to Rush:

    With Watson @ Point: 1250 minutes, eFG .560, TS% .576, Per 36 minute stats: 12.8 pp36, 4.9 rp36, 1.5 ap36

    With Price @ Point: 480 minutes, eFG .496, TS% .502, Per 36 minute stats: 10.0 pp36, 5.0 rp36, 2.2 ap36

    With Ford @ Point: 739 minutes, eFG .435, TS% .441, Per 36 minute stats: 9.3 pp36, 5.2 rp36, 1.5 ap36

    (He played about 21 minutes with Diener or somebody else at the point.)

    What I really want from Rush is for him to develop a mean streak. I'm fine with him playing excellent defense, shooting 40% from the arc, and averaging 12 ppg. I don't care about his stats at all. I would like him to trip Kobe in the playoffs, stick his foot under guys as they take jumpers, and "accidentally" punch guys in the nuts while fighting through picks. Great defensive players aren't just guys who are physically and mentally capable, they are also guys who are either intimidating (Ron Artest) or extremely annoying (Bruce Bowen).

    Sadly, what I want from Rush might be just as unrealistic as what everybody else wants.
    Sadly, I don't see this coming, either. I had said in another thread that as he became less important, he became more useful. I think he'll always underachieve, and therefore, he'll always be cheap, so I'm can live with the underachieving because it's still OK basketball.

    Also, I'll gladly sign on for more and better free throw shooting.
    Yeah, his FT numbers are ****ing embarrassing.

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  11. #58

    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    I'd be ecstatic with one addition to his game: drawing more fouls.

    He drives me nuts just like McKey did. He doesn't realize how good he is and he likely never will.

    Still, he's a consistently great defender, very close to lock down. He's also a very good rebounder at his position. He fills a greater need than almost any player on our team.

  12. #59

    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    there is an article i forget where at that said he was top 5 defender and he has one of the greatest efficy ratings
    http://ilevy.wordpress.com/2010/07/0...sh-an-apology/

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    My problem with Rush is that he sometimes seems to be content with having no responsibility, whatsoever. I can never quite put my finger on it, but, with rare exception, I'm always left thinking that Brandon was less than he should have been in any game. This is certainly more pronounced on offense, but it's true on defense, as well. He is a natural defender, but not a lock down guy, and he still is iffy in his team rotations..
    I think you are describing a classic underachiever.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
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    he's NOT a throw it to him, create his own shot guy.
    Not yet anyway.
    He HAS the outside shot to make them play him tight AND the quicks to get around them when they do.
    He's just got to do it more consistantly.
    He really WAS doing that a lot more at the end of the season when the team was playing very well.
    He seems to thrive when the whole team is playing well.
    Some good points here, although his mediocre ball handling (for a starting SG) limits the benefits of his natural speed if he has possession of the ball. It's less of a concern if Collison and Price do most of the ball handling and get him the ball when opportunities arise. He certainly can use his speed to easily escape defenders away from the ball, though.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by judicata View Post
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    This is a great question, but I think there are a few legitimate arguments why this is (and perhaps should be) the case.

    First, basketball is a game that heavily favors the offense. How many other games have one team scoring on nearly 50% of their possessions? The other team is going to score in bunches, and you have to keep up. I think defense is huge, but this isn't a sport where you can lock down on D and get a few points off turnovers and win the game. This also means that the noticeable marginal returns on playing hard defense are pretty low. In this league if you are a defensive specialist that can hold a star to less that 40% shooting you are pretty much a stud. That doesn't translate into a huge difference on the scoreboard, especially if the other team had viable second options.

    Second, the same dudes play offense and defense. There are no "defensive positions" like in a lot of field sports or complete lineup substitutions. That means there is no division of labor and that stamina is a zero sum game.

    If other games are 50% O and 50% D, AND have those guys split up, you can easily have guys that are 90%+ D and 10% O. In basketball, it is more like 35% D and 65% O and the same guys run both ways. Having one dimensional players is going to hurt bad after one or two.

    Third, defense is "easy." At least that is the common perception. You have to be a decent athlete with enough length and a lot of heart to be a great defensive player. We've seen a number of offensive stars knuckle up and become pretty damn good defensive players as well. Not so much in the other direction.

    Hell, look at Chuck's comments about DJones. DJones is an athletic freak by human standards. That, plus his grit makes a good defender. But he doesn't have whatever nebulous talent that requires good offense.

    Think about the inverse. Does anyone think that Monta Ellis or Amare or any other athletic and talented offensive star can't be a pretty good defender in this league? I think they can, and maybe its a myth (or Jordan's fault) but it certainly feels that way.

    Don't take this as an endorsement that basketball does not need defense, or that Rush's defense isn't valuable: that isn't my point at all. Its just not nearly valuable enough to ignore the offense of Rush where (1) we already have another defensive SG, (2) we have other talented wings that need some burn, and (3) he has gotten ample opportunity to develop his game, and somehow seems to take a step back every time he takes a step forward.

    Anyway, I know there are some compelling arguments the other way, so lets hear them!
    I certainly do not agree that defense is "easy," and it's even more difficult to become and elite defender because that generally requires a combination of strength, speed, length, and, most importantly, the mental constitution to maintain the high level of intensity necessary to be a great defender. I think that it's far easier to become a strong scorer, and most of the social reinforcement and praise goes to offense, which is a much bigger deal than most could understand.

    You are also underestimating the value of holding an opponent to a low % of output because an elite defender will typically be guarding the opposing team's best scorer, who is responsible for a significant component of his team's offensive output. In fact, the team's entire offensive plan tends to run through such players. Making that star have a bad game can disrupt the entire team's offense. I'm not necessarily saying that Rush is already the lockdown DPotY candidate who can routinely do that, but I think he could continue to move towards that in the right system. He's already very good now with few physical limitations to stand in his way (very strong, solid, good size, and pretty quick). I would not want to lose or marginalize a guy with the potential to do that. I'd want at least 1 or 2 guys in any young core who can get stops and keep opposing scorers out of rhythm and prevent them from taking over games. We've certainly seen the importance of such defenders in the playoffs, and that just happens to be when it really counts.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by judicata View Post
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    He has gotten lots of burn.

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  18. #64
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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Obviously he misunderstood when team officials told him they wanted him to come out of the gate smoking this season...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    CONSISTANCY & AGRESSIVENESS.
    Hmmm. Very telling with this recent news.

    I think we all know it affects the ability for someone to concentrate and it has a tendency to mellow people out.

    I did some research and it also causes memory problems, distorts perception and causes people trouble with thinking and problem solving. In addition it impacts psychomotor coordination. Most of this is bad stuff on the court and might explain why he's been such an enigma with all of his physical abilities...and his skills.

    The kid can shoot the rock and defend with the best of them. Drug use could very well be the issue. If anything, the number of times he has been caught indicates he is a regular user and his ability to develop is almost certainly affected. The issue is that the NBA is not an easy league to excel in. He is competing with players who may be a lot more dedicated to their craft and take better care of themselves. While he is staying up getting high, they may be sleeping allowing their brains to be fresh and focused for practice the next morning. He comes in dragging a bit and fuzzy. So...if he's doing drugs all the time, that will take away from what he could be...even if he is not high on the court. If he is a bit high out there, obviously his performance is not what it could be.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyPacer View Post
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    Some good points here, although his mediocre ball handling (for a starting SG) limits the benefits of his natural speed if he has possession of the ball. It's less of a concern if Collison and Price do most of the ball handling and get him the ball when opportunities arise. He certainly can use his speed to easily escape defenders away from the ball, though.
    I think Brandon and Danny would think they'd died and gone to heaven with a healthy Tyler setting picks for them. Brandon should be able to get an open look any time if he picks the right angle and uses his quickness to
    come off the wide bodied picks. Wouldn't even have to put it on the floor.

  23. #67
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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by dohman View Post
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    How can you shoot above 40 percent behind the arc yet only shoot 60 percent at the charity stripe.
    Since Rush got here, I have harped on his free throw shooting as a metaphor for his entire game.

    There is only one thing that causes you to shoot 60 percent from the charity stripe: lack of effort, practice, and focus.

    1. What am I asking of Rush over the next year?

    Better focus, awareness, deliberation, and more energetic and purposeful activity.

    2. What am I asking of Rush over the next month?

    I would like him to make a public statement to this effect: "I apologize to the fans of Indianapolis for breaking the rule on drug use. I pledge to never use drugs again as long as I am with the Pacers. I apologize for not having a lifestyle more conducive to physical and mental excellence, and I pledge to give 100 percent in the future to making myself the best possible player I can be for this franchise."

    If Brandon could live up to such a public statement, then my answer for "what I want from Rush" over the next year could also become a reality.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 08-28-2010 at 10:56 AM.
    .

    .

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    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Obviously he misunderstood when team officials told him they wanted him to come out of the gate smoking this season...
    Or, that they wanted him to take his game to a higher level...

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  27. #69
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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    I want Brandon Rush to stop smoking marijuana.
    Grown Man Ball

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    i want him to get out of indiana and never come back.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Since Rush got here, I have harped on his free throw shooting as a metaphor for his entire game.

    There is only one thing that causes you to shoot 60 percent from the charity stripe: lack of effort, practice, and focus.

    1. What am I asking of Rush over the next year?

    Better focus, awareness, deliberation, and more energetic and purposeful activity.

    2. What am I asking of Rush over the next month?

    I would like him to make a public statement to this effect: "I apologize to the fans of Indianapolis for breaking the rule on drug use. I pledge to never use drugs again as long as I am with the Pacers. I apologize for not having a lifestyle more conducive to physical and mental excellence, and I pledge to give 100 percent in the future to making myself the best possible player I can be for this franchise."

    If Brandon could live up to such a public statement, then my answer for "what I want from Rush" over the next year could also become a reality.

    HAHA that quote was hilarious. Nice
    *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    I want Brandon Rush to stop smoking marijuana.
    Oh come on. He just has to get a lot smarter about when he uses it.

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by SMosley21 View Post
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    I want Brandon Rush to stop smoking marijuana.
    he should take a page from Harold and Kumar! Snort Zoloft instead!
    follow me @TruenoPanda - lets talk Pacers!

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    If he is an occasional user...once every couple months...it's probably not an issue. It takes maybe half the time to get out of your system. The issue is if he's a regular user, once or more a week. In that case, it takes 2 or more weeks. It's just about impossible to avoid getting caught under those circumstances. There's also the drug bust issue of course which makes even more good news for the Pacers...

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    Default Re: What are we wanting from Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    If he is an occasional user...once every couple months...it's probably not an issue. It takes maybe half the time to get out of your system. The issue is if he's a regular user, once or more a week. In that case, it takes 2 or more weeks. It's just about impossible to avoid getting caught under those circumstances. There's also the drug bust issue of course which makes even more good news for the Pacers...
    takes 30 days to get out of ur system

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