Why is Lebron obligated in any way shape or form to commit to a crappy Cavs franchise that had 7 years to build around him and couldn't do better than spare parts like Larry Hughes? If Magic or Bird played in some podunk city where their best teammate was someone like Mo Williams, they would've wanted out to.
They would've wanted out just like Charles Barkley forced his way out of a Philly team going nowhere. Funny that Charles would criticize Lebron for ditching a crappy franchise when that's basically what Barkley forced his way out of in 1992. If Lebron basically knows that the Cavs are too incompetent a franchise to ever surround him with a winning team, then why the hell should be obligated to stick with that? If he finds a better opportunity to form a team HIMSELF, then why shouldn't he?
I mean, nobody ever says a peep when players want out of a poorly run franchise like Golden State, right (and there have been plenty of players wanting out)? Everytime someone whines or forces their way out of GS, it's pretty much agreed that said player had good reason to want out because nobody should be blamed for wanting to escape a poorly run franchise.
So why shouldn't Lebron have the same leeway? In Carmelo's case, it's pretty clear that Denver's front office is in a lot of ruin, and their upper management/ownership situation right now looks pretty similar to what's been going on for years under Chris Cohan's rule.
Bottom line is you can't and shouldn't expect great players to commit themselves to poorly run organizations. Why the hell should they waste their time and talent just for the sake of loyalty? They shouldn't.
He should leave. The Nuggets aren't really that competitive anymore. With Billups ageing, they'll probably need to enter a full-rebuilding to acquire talent. The front-office situation is messy. With his age there's not much of a reason for him to stay.
If he signs an extension, he'll regret it in two years and demand a trade. Better to leave now.
Yep, Lebron wasted those years to the tune of about $50 million dollars.
And ruled as King of Cleveland (if not Ohio)
Interesting how you use Stockton and Malone as they've been out of the league for some years now..
Duncan is a known "different kind of guy" (class act) that DOES understand loyalty and that his team HAS tried to build a winner around him.
He appreciates it.
He stayed because of it.
Then you have the "new breed" of ego above all.
Carry my team?? Naw, I'll just get a few of my superstar buddies and we'll run the gym.
Don't you just love the guys that get the best 5 players at the gym and romp all the time?
Is that really great competition to you "enablers" out there.
Cleveland did most everything LEBRON wanted. Including getting the players he approved of.
There's no guarantees of winning despite the best efforts of everyone involved.
Yeh, as noted repeatadly.
It's the PROCESS of how that happened that is the problem.
The JOURNEY is what is important.
The GOAL is just icing on the cake.
That is what the Lebrons of the world (and there are many here) will never understand.
And why those that do are unhappy with the development of this "new way".
It was "The Decision" that pissed everyone off. People are just disappointed about the fact he chose Miami mostly because they wanted to see him compete against the likes of Wade, not with him.
People want to see the best-of-the-best going against each other. What's the fun in them all teaming-up? No one is calling Lebron a punk for going to Miami (including Barkley). They're calling him a punk for the way in which he announced it.
If he had gone to NY or Chicago, no one would've minded, it's just he looks like a chicken for going to Miami. He took the easy way out.
Referencing Malone-Stockton and Duncan doesn't work in this instance. Malone and Stockton are both "country-boys". They're not big-city guys. Duncan's ego doesn't even come close to matching Lebron's, and he was winning in SA so why leave?
Your argument regarding Cleveland being a poorly run franchise doesn't hold either. This team won 60+ games last year. That's an elite team. No, that wasn't all Lebron either. No one wins without a good supporting-cast. They were cruising through the playoffs too and up 2-1 against Boston until Lebron decided to not bother showing-up anymore. He had a good team around him, he just wasn't able or willing to get it done.
People forget that Kobe's 8th seeded Lakers were ousted very easily in the 1st round a few years ago by Phoenix. That wasn't due to Kobe, it was just that the team wasn't good enough. In contrast, this Cavs team clearly was good enough. Lebron just quit.
Last edited by pacerDU; 08-19-2010 at 02:34 PM.
Stockton and Malone are out of the league? So what? Doesn't matter if it was last year, now or back in the 80s. They played in a small market which you claimed would make it impossible for Utah to keep. It ain't ancient history. In fact, they played all the way up to 2003, which was basically the same type of collective bargaining agreement that we have today.
Tim Duncan loyal? Sure. It's easy to be loyal when you play for a great organization that shows you they can win and surrounds you with great teammates. They surrounded him with David Robinson the first half of his career and then Parker/Ginobilli the 2nd half. Lebron hasn't played with a supporting cast anywhere near that.
Just because Duncan, Bird and Magic chose to stay in the same place with excellent supporting casts doesn't obligate Lebron or any other superstar to stay and play for crappy organizations with guys like Mo Williams as the best player.
Lebron in his 7 years in Cleveland never once complained. Never once demanded a trade. Never once told the Cavs to get him more help or else. The moves the Cavs made were the moves they decided to make. And by and large, they were bad moves. That's on them.
Just because Lebron didn't complain about them doesn't mean that Lebron is the guy who told them to make those moves. It just means that he was a guy who stayed quiet and didn't complain. Went out and played hard and tried to win with what the Cavs put around him. He spent 7 years trying to win with that garbage that surrounded him. He's not obligated to waste more of his prime years with that crap.
Kevin Garnett showed all the loyalty in the world to the T Wolves. Never complained. Always went with the company line despite playing for a crappy organization. And where did that get him? A first round playoff exit every single year except for one. He even told Lebron himself that staying loyal is great, except it really doesn't get you anywhere if you're doing it for a crappy organization.
And KG turned out to be absolutely right. Directing himself to Boston was the best thing to happen in his career.
Last edited by d_c; 08-19-2010 at 10:32 PM.
Lebron as an 18 year old rookie took what was the worst team in the league the previous year to a team that was in contention for the playoffs until the final week of the season. Nobody thinks much of that, but in fact it was an incredible achievement for an 18 year old rookie. No 18 year old rookie has come close to coming close to that kind of impact.
When the Lakers were getting low playoff seeds and getting ousted in the first round, what happened?
Oh that's right. It was Kobe who played like a true team player and whined, moaned, complained and threatened wanting out. He completely ripped the organization for not getting him more help. Something Lebron NEVER DID. "Andrew Bynum? Ship his @ss out!" Remember that? I don't remember Lebron ever talking like that about any of his Cleveland teammates.
And it actually worked. The Lakers went out and got him more help.
The bottom line is there are some historically good organizations and some historically bad ones. Players want to play for the good organizations a lot more than the bad ones. That's not a big surprise.
I don't blame anyone who feels "disappointed" in Lebron, but guess what? Players go to the best situations they can find. Maybe you don't like what Lebron did, but at the very least you should recognize that Pat Riley runs a much better basketball organization than the one that Cleveland runs. He established a situation players want to play for. He out thought, out planned and out maneuvered everyone else to put together an awesome team that was well within the rules of the CBA. When an organization does that, I can't blame players for wanting to play there. And now look at all the vets that want to line up on the gravy train and join that team for the vet minimum.
Last edited by d_c; 08-19-2010 at 02:54 PM.
You're absolutely right that there are good organizations and bad. That players want to play for the good ones (although I think it's based on market more than the franchise itself in most cases). I don't know if anyone is disputing that, I know I'm certainly not.
It still doesn't take away from the fact that he took the easy way out. It makes him less of a "great". I think that's what everyone is referring to - his legacy. He has every right to play for whoever he wants, but by making Miami his choice (with Wade there), he'll never be someone who you can say took his team to the promised-land. I don't care personally because I've never liked Lebron, but I think the people who do/did like him are disappointed.
Regarding Kobe and the Lakers a few years ago. I agree with you. Kobe acted like a loser. That's not what I'm referring to when using those Laker teams as a reference. I'm stating that Kobe couldn't make his teams competitive on his own, so what makes you think Lebron managed to do it on his own? Are you saying that Lebron is head-and-shoulders above Kobe? Last years Cavs team was good mostly because of Lebron, but not solely because of him. Not even Jordan could do it on his own. A bad team doesn't win 60+ games.
I think all anyone is saying about Lebron is:
a) He's a jerk for the way he announced his decision.
b) He's hurt his legacy by choosing Wade's Heat.
Last edited by pacerDU; 08-19-2010 at 05:23 PM.
Regarding his legacy, he'll have a better legacy joining Wade and Miami and winning titles there than if he chose to remain "loyal" and not winning titles in Cleveland. It's not as if KG finally winning a title in Boston hurts his legacy more than if he just stayed in Minnesota to keep getting 1st round exits. I think people think he's better off.
I agree that Lebron needing to televise his decision on ESPN was lame, contrived and totally unnecessary, but apart from that his decision shows that he's a man with a brain.
I think the Bobcats would be a solid trade partner for the Nuggets.
Carmelo is part of the Jordan brand. Bobcats could send back a solid SF in Gerald Wallace.
Could send Dampier's contract that's not guaranteed. Got young players in Augustin or Gerald Henderson. Can add a draft pick and take back a JR Smith or something.
Not making this a trade thread. I just think the Bobcats being patient w/ Dampier could pay off if Melo really wants out and is willing to go to Charlotte.
The Rockets can likely make the best package with Kevin Martin, picks and other young talent, but who knows?
Nothing we didn't really suspect. But just like everyone else, Carmelo wants his extension from Denver then traded to the Team of his choice.
I'm guessing that it's possible that the Pacers can get involved somehow given our Expiring Contracts as a 3rd Team facilitator to make salaries match ( I'm not saying we can get Carmelo )...but my guess is that the Bobcats will be involved as the 3rd Team with Dampier's huge unguaranteed Contract or the Kings cuz they are way under the Salary Cap.Anthony, Nuggets look ready to part ways
By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports
9 hours, 22 minutes ago
Carmelo Anthony(notes) wants out of Denver, and Worldwide Wes delivered that message to the Nuggets with all the delicacy of a jackhammer at Sunday morning services. Do yourself a favor and trade him, the agent told the organization weeks ago.
Denver was furnished with a short list of teams and told to get to work. Yes, this how William Wesley and Leon Rose of CAA work now, thick with threats and ultimatums and a swagger suggesting that the sport belongs to them. After Anthony told owner-in-waiting Josh Kroenke that he still wanted out of Denver during a Sunday meeting, the Nuggets appear done trying to sell their All-Star forward on a contract extension.
Kroenke's son tries to woo Anthony Aug 23, 2010 This wasn’t a productive, nor particularly pleasant, meeting and multiple sources said it could turn out to be the point of no return for Anthony and the organization. Sources insist it’s no longer a matter of if the Nuggets trade Anthony, but when, where and for whom he’s traded for.
“It’s almost a given they’re going to move him,” said a front-office executive who’s talked with the Nuggets and Anthony’s agents with CAA.
While Kroenke had several severe remedies in his back pocket if the agency didn’t back off its most strident demands, sources said Thursday night that the owner never had to go that far to get CAA to work with the Nuggets. Now agent Leon Rose and Wesley are more open-minded about potential trade destinations.
Anthony wants to leave Denver and get his three-year, $65 million contract extension now. This partnership is rounding third and rapidly reaching disrepair. Denver is willing to trade Anthony, J.R. Smith(notes) and Kenyon Martin(notes), and start over again, sources said.
The Nuggets made it clear to teams they want young players and draft picks for Anthony, league executives said. The New Jersey Nets and Los Angeles Clippers have emerged as the two most probable destinations for Anthony because they have assets that appeal to Denver. The geography works for Anthony because of his wife LaLa Vazquez’s entertainment career.
Golden State and Houston are contenders, too. What’s more, the Charlotte Bobcats are a sleeper because of Anthony’s Brand Jordan shoe deal and the team’s ability to give the Nuggets a salary-dump proposal.
Back in mid-July, the Kroenkes had to travel to New York for Anthony’s wedding to finally realize he no longer intended to sign their extension offer. The reception spiraled into an evening of Chris Paul(notes) and Anthony’s brother making toasts about a future partnership for Anthony and Paul in New York with the Knicks. With nothing to trade for Anthony, though, New York isn’t considered a strong contender in the eyes of Denver management.
Few can be as strong-minded and willful as Stan Kroenke, and it doesn’t matter the Nuggets will be turned over to his son Josh by the end of the year. Stan still will be looming over the franchise, and the billionaire has shown an old-school ability to carry through on his convictions once you’ve lost him as an ally.
With the way that CAA has tried to muscle and manipulate the market this summer, sources said Stan Kroenke, freshly approved as the St. Louis Rams owner, intends look closely at whether the NBA should adopt a “franchise player” tag that teams could slap on superstars like the one the NFL uses. NBA owners are still far from seriously discussing that issue, but CAA’s manipulation of Anthony and Paul while under contract has become an increasingly sore subject within the league.
For now, the departure of Denver general manager Mark Warkentien and the increased influence of Kroenke adviser Bret Bearup means there won’t be much of a fight within the organization to stay the course with Anthony, sources said. Denver has hired Masai Ujiri as its new GM, but he doesn’t arrive with the authority to make major moves. Things have deteriorated too fast to believe Denver will turn back now. ‘Melo is on the market, and the bidding has begun.
Another side note...I wouldn't mind trying to make a move for Kenyon Martin as a stop-gap solution for the PF spot for a single season.
Last edited by CableKC; 08-27-2010 at 03:33 AM.
Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
No, it is not possible that the Pacers can get involved somehow. No way in hell would Melo ever play here. He and his "actress" wife want LA or NYC, that's it. Living in Indy would be their worst nightmare. No chance he agrees to sign that extension if Denver is planning to send him anywhere else.
I think Carmelo would fit in great at PF here. He could run the pick and roll and be just about unstoppable with Collison IMO. He has an unbelievable mid-range game, which is something we don't have. I wish he would pass the ball more than he currently does in Denver, but we also have a better offensive team than the Nuggets. Chauncey is very good, but they rely so heavily on he and Anthony to score. They need JR Smith's offense desperately, but he makes too many dumb mistakes that lose ball games to rely on him. When he goes off though, Denver becomes nearly unbeatable. I doubt Carmelo's willingness to play PF though. I don't know if he would give us enough rebounding to be successful though.
As per the feasibility of bringing Anthony here, it is highly doubtful. If Denver rescinds the extension offer, they can trade him anywhere and he has no say in the matter. He can be disruptive where it drives down his trade value to anybody outside of a few teams he would want to play for. The problem is, that Denver can lose him for nothing. Nothing may be better than what a team like NY could offer him. NY has nothing worth a damn to offer in a trade. Gallinari is a solid player with back problems this early in hsi career. Wilson Chandler is an excellent athlete, but he isn't enough to make that deal happen for the Denver organization. I would think Denver would want a solid player in return plus a young player and a first rounder. Anthony can't force Denver's hands too much. He can say he won't play for a team that trades for him, but then he has to deal with the league.
I think Chicago is actually an attractive destination for Carmelo. He would be put next to Boozer, Noah, and Rose. That is a tough, hard-nosed team IMO. Denver could take back Deng if they really like him enough to take on his salary. Or they could do a straight up trade with them for James Johnson or Taj Gibson and a couple first rounders since the bulls are still slightly under the cap. The Bulls would barely be under LT if they sent out just one of the two young PF's and took on Anthony's deal. I also think Anthony would be agreeable to go there.
The Nets are an option because of Jay-Z. I think Charlotte and Indy might have a chance just because of their legendary Presidents. A sleeper in this whole thing is Portland. Portland has Nike. They have the talent. They have the young talent to send to Denver. They also have an owner willing to spend. Denver may not deal him directly to Portland, but I could see Portland trying to get involved in some way to get him. Atlanta is a sleeper pick for him IMO. Orlando could do something around Vince Carter, but I doubt Chauncey would do well with the way that Vince plays.
I was just looking at potential Carmelo trades. I truley hope he doesn't come out east. If he goes to New Jersey or Charlotte, that will just be another team we have to compete with to make the playoffs.
If he goes to New Jersey in a Melo for T Will, Favors, Outlaw. That still leaves New Jersey with a startig line up of
If he goes to Charlotte in a Melo for Wallace, Dampier, then that still leave Charlotte with a line up of:
The New Jersey team lineup is much better. Charlotte still has holes a Center and point guard.
You mean SF, I suppose; he played less than 6% of his minutes at PF. If you do mean PF, I have my doubts. On defense they hide him and use him as a rover (by the way, what happened to their team defense last season?); if he's got to guard bigger 4s on a nightly basis - I take it you would start him, yes? - that's a lot to ask of your #1 scorer. You raise the small ball debate to another degree, because you basically make it the full-time strategy of the team.
Sounds plausible to me.
Forgetting Danny Granger?
I can agree with this to a point. He's such a prolific shot-creater and productive scorer that you do want him creating and taking shots.
I must have read this wrong. I'm going to go make coffee.
Hm. Two cups down and it still says the same thing. I think that you meant to say that the Nuggets have a better offensive team than the Pacers. That must be the explanation, since Denver scored 7.4 points more per hundred possessions than Indiana. That is an enormous difference.
Good points. Basically it's hard to see having both Carmelo and Granger.
Chauncey will be 34 this season. He has aged incredibly well - his game never relied on blinding speed - but it looks like Denver is going to blow it up, and the last thing you can expect is for them to start putting aging vets around Billups to make another run... no, no way, not going to happen.
Last edited by O'Bird; 08-29-2010 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Local Color
"Defense doesn't break down on the help, it breaks down on the recovery." - Chuck Daly
"The first shot does not beat you." - Chuck Daly
"To play defense and not foul is an art that must be mastered if you are going to be successful." - Chuck Daly
My guess is the Nuggets are after a young PF as well. They're set at PG with Billups and Lawson. Nene is a solid Center. Kmart is expiring, so a young PF and young wing will likely be the targets.Sam Amico of NBA.com is reporting that the Nuggets are looking at three teams as destinations for All-Star forward Carmelo Anthony -- the Nets, Kings and Timberwolves.
"Early word around NBA is Nuggets will try to trade Carmelo to 1 of 3 teams: Wolves, Kings, Nets. In other words, careful what you wish for," Amico wrote on his Twitter page.
The New York Post reported on Saturday morning that the Nets are a "legit" suitor for Anthony.
An NBA executive was quoted as saying that New Jersey as the right pieces to acquire the forward.
Judging by the 3 teams I expect Favors, Cousins and Kevin Love are the targets.
Nets could also throw in a wing or 2 with Morrow, TWill, or Outlaw. Not sure if Murphy would have to be added for contracts or what?
Kings could add Casspi and maybe even Landry and Thompson, plus they have cap room.
Wolves, Wes Johnson or Beasley to Kevin Love would be solid. Flynn or Rubio are also there, but don't see Nuggets wanting PG. Corey Brewer could be decent piece as well. Wolves also have cap space